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[三江源]

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Edited July 19, 2014 by cat

[joeblast]

No such thing as a mathematical abstraction

[Uroboros]

There isnt, Joe?! What have I spent my life doing, then?! (mind blown)

 

Cat- Thats something important we often forget. To create something new, the old must be destroyed...

On a personal level, when we move towards a new direction, sometimes the old, solidified experiences seem to be crumbling.

We then freak out! Oh no! When its just that cycle being put in motion. The old is destroyed to create the new...

If we could remember that when the old burns, instead of freaking out, embracing it for what it is and could be....

Life might be a whole lot more fun and joyful!

 

Some thoughts. Peace.

[3bob]

Comment:

As the real which Is beyond duality, what duality is there then to be balanced or source to return to that never really left Itself?

 

Considering and if accepting that - "co-creators" or un-creators are only relative or apparent in time(s) and space(s). Also that which is source for time and space can un-identify with time and space without the destruction of same, (per-se) since the eternal real is always right now beyond being trapped in identification with time(s) and space(s).

 

Om

[Uroboros]

Hmm...maybe the "real" is creation and destruction. We happen to exist, at times in duality. Within that "plane/level" we can interact with nature in certain...harmonious ways. Instead of thinking either or, thinking in terms of both might be useful.

 

Unless we can bring our awareness to the true true, we may just delude ourselves into thinking that we are "one". Even if we do bring our awareness into the true true, we may still be deluded into thinking that we are outside of/ separate from/of duality.

 

Duality may be a wonderful way to reach the true true (real). We may be able to contemplate/ merge into change and discover that which does not change within change...

 

Some thoughts. Peace.

[Marblehead]

As co - creators we must uncreate.. we cannot to one without the other, or there is no balance.

There will always be destruction before new creation can take place. And it has been said that creation and destruction is the same thing.

[3bob]

Cat, since you quoted me and may have implied that I was saying something about not fulfilling various dharmas (?) I'll add the following, "Guru Shakti" or I'd use the terms Sat Guru Darshan is not identified with only human form and everything that goes along with same, thus such a being is not identified with or not caught up in duality yet still fulfilling or working with dharmas as needed per their human and divine forms. (obviously forms which are not separate from creation or destruction at some point) Further it is not the dharma of a good householder to forget householder duties which would then bring a karmic price as you imply above - neither is it the place of a householder to be a renunciate, monk or hermit unless or until their householder dharma work is finished.

[C T]

We live in a world of duality?

 

Maybe thats why there is such a rigid, often limiting structure around. We dont really see this, but we sense its there. If not, would transcendental work/spiritual pursuits have any meaning, i wonder?

 

What would happen if we are able to change the way we view this idea? Instead of admitting that we live in such a way, why not investigate to see what 'we' 'live' 'world' 'duality' really means?

 

Please refrain from asking for an elaboration, because for me the process is still very much ongoing. Moreover, we each must discover the meaning most appropriate to our own capacity and mental scope. It seems to be an individual journey. Though many would walk the same path, repeatedly so for most, not all will experience the same residual impact of the exercise.

 

 

 

.just some thoughts.

[Uroboros]

CT- Maybe that is why. We live in duality yet we also live in unity/ non dual. its all seems to be there. We can think in yes or no, left or right. We can also think in maybe, yes and no, both. We can see/ experience duality and the unity within that...

 

I feel that investigating, penetrating the true true of a thing is quite fruitful. Its also allot of fun. I dont know what any of those things really means. I can say what I was taught, what I may think of it now....does not mean I know anything of the thing itself.

 

Maybe to live in unity, we might want to consider accepting every aspect of life as vital. Nothing left out.

 

Something to ponder, maybe. Peace

[3bob]

Btw, the meaning of the words creation and destruction is another major subject; for instance do they just mean or limited to the idea of a constant change of forms coming and going or perhaps there is more to it - such as form changing or returning to formlessness? (which may or may not be not be known by us) I believe this idea is alluded to in T.T.C. chapter 43 with the sentence of, "Only Nothing can enter into no-space". Thus I would not exactly equate "destruction" as the end of that which is although the previous form is no more.

[Marblehead]

Hi 3bob,

 

Yeah, I have been in that discussion before and I am limited as to how far I can go with it. But it is a fun duscussion.

[3bob]

fun sometimes... beat up bad sometimes

[Marblehead]

Hey! The beatings heal. Hehehe.

 

Everything that is, is, always has been, and always will be. Change is what causes things to look different over time. This is creation and destruction.

[3bob]

you know there is a Vedanta saying I'll have to look up now to go with that...

[Uroboros]

3bob- Thats a wonderful point! Does creation/ destruction mean what we usually think it means?! Hmm...I shall ponder that...The transition of Form to Form-less...

 

On one level, the old is unmade and something "new" is made...our bodies do this...the world around us does this..our minds do this...maybe the universe does this.. Like a pulse. Pulse out- Manifest...Pulse returns- Un-manifested.

 

If we are in a form state.. can we truly enter the form-less?

 

Marblehead- Thats a beautiful sentence... are you saying that all that is and will be exists on one level/ plane, whilst on another, change appears to occur?

 

Peace.

[Apech]

Yes. It is a pulse. At least, I have felt it as such.

 

 

I agree ....

[Uroboros]

Cat- hehe...a pulse..like our heartbeat..reflections upon reflections. A pulse from where, I wonder...Maybe everywhere at once?

 

I was reading Embryonic Breathing by Yang Jwing-Ming and in it he was talking about this topic. Here is what he wrote about the first Chapter of the DDJ. Unsure which translation he is using, if its not his own.

 

Nothing, is the beginning of Pre-Heaven (wuji); Having, is the mother of millions of objects (yin/yang). Always keep nothingness, so to observe the marvelousness (of nature). Always having, so observe the returning (recycling or ending) of millions of objects.

 

He is saying that Yin/Yang come from Wuji and they also unite and go back to Wuji. Which could be a pulsation of no-thing to some-thing, in a way.

 

Some thoughts. Peace.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead- Thats a beautiful sentence... are you saying that all that is and will be exists on one level/ plane, whilst on another, change appears to occur?

Thanks. I have been using that for many years now and I do firmly hold to that understanding. I will speak further but I must first state that I am a Materialist and an Atheist. Don't expect to see "me" in/on another plane.

 

However, I hold to the Taoist concepts of "wu" and "you" which I generally refer to as "Mystery" and "Manifest". (There is also Chi which I won't speak to here.)

 

Manifest is the physical universe. Mystery is the space bewteen manifest objects. It is the potential for the manifest. When I die some of what I am will become other stuff in the manifest and the rest will return to the mystery and become potential. While I am alive this process is taking place as well.

 

But, this is as far as I am willing to go based on my present knowledge.

[Uroboros]

Hehe, be who you are! Materialist/ Atheist belief systems exist, so they must be important. Rambling on that, done...

 

Hmm..Interesting.. Mystery might then be..that which has no boundaries/ definition?

 

Thank you for sharing! When I said "plane" i dont mean someplace other then here...I meant on a mental/ conceptual level. Since we can experience all forms, all levels/ planes, its all here in some way.. Or maybe im mistaken! Thats half the fun, finding out your wrong so you can find out what is true-ish.

 

Do you feel that the Mystery could be likened to a Wave and the Manifest to a Particle? Or maybe the Mystery would be better explained as "empty space"?

 

Thoughts upon thoughts, where they come from...only the shadow knows....

 

Peace.

[Marblehead]

Hehe, be who you are! Materialist/ Atheist belief systems exist, so they must be important. Rambling on that, done...

I flt stating that was important so you wouldn't misunderstand what I was saying.

 

Hmm..Interesting.. Mystery might then be..that which has no boundaries/ definition?

Yes. No boundries. If it is naturally possible it may happen. In Science, space is still expanding faster than the speed of light. No boundries to the expansion yet.

 

Thank you for sharing! When I said "plane" i dont mean someplace other then here...I meant on a mental/ conceptual level. Since we can experience all forms, all levels/ planes, its all here in some way.. Or maybe im mistaken! Thats half the fun, finding out your wrong so you can find out what is true-ish.

Okay, I am with you now. And in agreement as long as we are speaking of mental/conceptual levels. Rene likes to speak of being in the "wu" and "you" state simyltaneously. How much more we are in the one state than the other I think will speak to what level we are at at any point in time.

 

Yes, trying to understand others regarding intangible concepts is fun.

 

Do you feel that the Mystery could be likened to a Wave and the Manifest to a Particle? Or maybe the Mystery would be better explained as "empty space"?

I'm not ready to separate the particle from the wave yet. In my understanding a particle is one single point in time of a wave. Particles can exist on their own but a wave requires numerous particles in a sequence.

 

It is said that all matter is basically energy vibration at various frequencies. Considering this, I would have to say that Mystery is the particles and manifest is the waves.

 

Thoughts upon thoughts, where they come from...only the shadow knows....

 

Peace.

Either you are well aged or you listen to old-time radio on the internet. Not many of us remember The Shadow.

[Uroboros]

Marblehead- I do appreciate you telling me where you are coming from at the beginning. It does help me understand what you are saying. So, thank you!

 

Do you feel that space can be defined, though? Defined as anything other then something that appears to exist?

 

Yes, I dont yet see a way for all these states/planes to exist in any separate place/ way. They all seem to have to be here, simultaneously. We may separate them, mentally, to help us understand each part/ mechanism/ way...Eventually, they blur and only appear to exist separately...Or so my current understanding says.

 

Hmm..Being in the Wu and Yu State simultaneously, eh..We would have to be, if they existed. Maybe that is similar to how a Shaman lives, one foot in the Mystery, one foot in the Manifest...We all live like that in varying degrees...Interesting.

 

Im not saying any of this can be truly separate. Just separate for gaining elementary understanding, in the mental realm.

Hmm...I did not know that about Waves/ Particles...

Why do you feel that the Particle could be the Mystery? I would think its the other way around. The Mystery would be the Wave...Maybe I dont understand Particles/ Waves very well, then.

 

Haha, I have not been in this form for very long.. My father loved the Shadow, so he would say, Only the Shadow knows all the time...Even now, I find it amusing to say. You are the first person who has gotten the saying, though. Which I find hysterical and fantastic! Finally someone gets it.

 

Thank you for your input/ discussion! Its quite allot of fun. Peace.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead- I do appreciate you telling me where you are coming from at the beginning. It does help me understand what you are saying. So, thank you!

Then it was worth my time doing it.

 

Do you feel that space can be defined, though? Defined as anything other then something that appears to exist?

I think trying to define space would be like trying to define Tao. Your second question should be a statement.

 

Yes, I dont yet see a way for all these states/planes to exist in any separate place/ way. They all seem to have to be here, simultaneously. We may separate them, mentally, to help us understand each part/ mechanism/ way...Eventually, they blur and only appear to exist separately...Or so my current understanding says.

I have had many fine discussions concerning this concept.

 

Hmm..Being in the Wu and Yu State simultaneously, eh..We would have to be, if they existed. Maybe that is similar to how a Shaman lives, one foot in the Mystery, one foot in the Manifest...We all live like that in varying degrees...Interesting.

Yeah, IMO, to have any kind of worth-while life a person would have to be somewhere between the two. But that doesn't negate the possibility of being totally in one or the other.

 

Im not saying any of this can be truly separate. Just separate for gaining elementary understanding, in the mental realm.

Hmm...I did not know that about Waves/ Particles...

 

Why do you feel that the Particle could be the Mystery? I would think its the other way around. The Mystery would be the Wave...Maybe I dont understand Particles/ Waves very well, then.

Imagine a wave, that is, a line starting at zero horizontal and rising gradually to a given horizontal level, then declining to zero and beyond to a point equal to the height of rise, and then rising back to zero horizontal again. Now, you likely imagined a solid line. Forget that. Imagine that line as a number of points along the wave, many points so that it would appear to be solid. Each of those points is a particle. All the particles at their various positions create the wave.

 

Quantum Mechanics speaks of the particle and the wave as being two separate things. I don't buy that. I'm not saying I am right, but I am saying this is my understanding at the present time.

 

Haha, I have not been in this form for very long.. My father loved the Shadow, so he would say, Only the Shadow knows all the time...Even now, I find it amusing to say. You are the first person who has gotten the saying, though. Which I find hysterical and fantastic! Finally someone gets it.

 

Thank you for your input/ discussion! Its quite allot of fun. Peace.

That was one of the programs my family would listen to before television. It was one of our family get-togethers.

 

I just found out something about television the other evening. Television existed during WWII in the early 1940s but it wasn't commercially available yet. The military had it. They used it in unmanned aircraft at sea to destroy Japanese ships. This was the birth of today's drones.

[Uroboros]

Cat- The Shadow was a radio show character and they made some comics and a movie about him. I also have observed that shadows have life in some form...I have pondered that there might be some sort of connection between the Un-manifested and the Manifested in them.

 

Marblehead- Hmm...I feel the same. Trying to define space is like trying to define the Tao. Why do you feel my second question should be a statement?

 

Hmm...I agree that having some semblance of balance between Wu and Yu would be helpful. There are most likely people who exist mostly in one or the other....We may also slide between them in varying degrees based on the task...How curious. I wonder what a person who existed totally in one or the other would exist as. If a person existed in the Mystery totally would they have any definite form? I wonder if thats spirit... Would a person who totally existed in the Manifested have any connection to the subtle realms? Hmm....this is a tough one.

 

Are you saying that each particle, in a sort of resonance, creates a field that is a Wave?

Maybe the dilemma is that a Particle and Wave may appear to be separate, when they are not...Like everything else!

 

Ah, my fathers family did the same thing, at times...

 

Hehe, birth of the drones, eh... Thats an impressive use of TV! Not just for reality tv shows! Thanks for sharing!

 

Peace.

[Marblehead]

Why do you feel my second question should be a statement?

Let's look at the two questions:

 

"Do you feel that space can be defined, though? Defined as anything other then something that appears to exist?"

 

Let's now rephrase the two into one statement:

 

Space can be defined as anything other than something that exists.

 

I had to remove the "appears to" because of the existence of illusions and delusions which appear to exist but really don't.

 

 

Hmm...I agree that having some semblance of balance between Wu and Yu would be helpful. There are most likely people who exist mostly in one or the other....We may also slide between them in varying degrees based on the task...How curious. I wonder what a person who existed totally in one or the other would exist as. If a person existed in the Mystery totally would they have any definite form? I wonder if thats spirit... Would a person who totally existed in the Manifested have any connection to the subtle realms? Hmm....this is a tough one.

I have found extremes to be generally unhealthy. 50/50 would be best, I would think. To be immersed in the Mystery (wu) yet be totally aware of the Manifest (you) would be great, I think.

 

 

Are you saying that each particle, in a sort of resonance, creates a field that is a Wave?

Maybe the dilemma is that a Particle and Wave may appear to be separate, when they are not...Like everything else!

If we look too closely at the wave we will see only particles or maybe only one particle. This is true with any thing - when we break it down into its component parts we lose the essence of the thing we are breaking apart. All we have left are particles.

 

In Wayne Wang's introduction to his translation of the TTC "Dynamic Tao" he spoke to the concept of "you" being a subest of the field of "wu". This is consistent with my understanding of astrophysics and it is also consistent with the concept of the possibility of parallel universes. Interesting brain stuff.

 

Ah, my fathers family did the same thing, at times...

 

Hehe, birth of the drones, eh... Thats an impressive use of TV! Not just for reality tv shows! Thanks for sharing!

 

Peace.

Yes, there are good uses of TV. But let me state that I do enjoy watching a good action/adventure movie now and then. (I miss my Army days. Hehehe.)

[Uroboros]

Marblehead- Ahh, now I see what you mean about the question/ statement...It does seem to make far more sense as a statement. Thank you for clarifying.

On the topic of illusions, it could be said that most things are some form of illusion. Which is why I say, appears to exist. Since I have little knowledge of things existing outside of my own self, which I know little about, most things appear to be what they are.

 

Hmm...If you could be totally immersed in the Wu yet aware of the Yu...that does sound incredible. It could also be horrible! haha. We may become so detached from the Yu, that we are unable to do more then sit and be. We may be unable to participate because we already are so deeply connected. Time may blur, experiences might blend and merge, people could as well....I wonder if thats similar to how a schizophrenic experiences life at times. Ever changing, constantly flipping channels, experiencing things that exist to them, not to others. It would be interesting find out if they were more in a different "state" or "plane" and less wherever their body currently was. Like a shaman, just far more unstable.

 

Hmm...Very interesting...So the essence is probably in the Mystery (wu), which is why it appears to exist yet slips from your grasp when you try to grab it. This is very fun and interesting brain/mind stuff. You have given me much to ponder.

 

Hhehe, a good action/ adventure movie...those can be very enjoyable. Do you prefer more modern timed movies, say the last 100 years, or any good action/adventure movie?

 

Im curious, Marblehead. Do you feel that your time in the Army helped you uncover some insight into the nature of creation/destruction?

 

Peace.