7 Levels of Humanity

[三江源]

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Edited July 25, 2014 by cat

[Marblehead]

Hua Hu Ching, sixty-two

 

(Hua Hu Ching 17)

 

Hua Hu Ching 78

You done good that time Vmarco.

[silas]

Hua Hu Ching, sixty-two

Hua Hu Ching 17)

Hua Hu Ching 78

 

The Hua Hu Ching 化胡經 is a Buddhist-inflected version of the TaoTeChing. Some of its concepts conflict with classical Taoism. The title translates as "Transformation Of The Barbarians" - a religious conversion text. The title is uncomfortable for me.

[Marblehead]

The Hua Hu Ching 化胡經 is a Buddhist-inflected version of the TaoTeChing. Some of its concepts conflict with classical Taoism. The title translates as "Transformation Of The Barbarians" - a religious conversion text. The title is uncomfortable for me.

All true what you have said but many Religious Toists like it, especially those of the Buddhist religion. (I'm not say Vmarco is a Religious Taoist please understand.)

[Vmarco]

 

The Hua Hu Ching 化胡經 is a Buddhist-inflected version of the TaoTeChing. Some of its concepts conflict with classical Taoism. The title translates as "Transformation Of The Barbarians" - a religious conversion text. The title is uncomfortable for me.

Yes,....dogmatic self-idealized purists don't like the Hua Hu Ching. I personally find it enhances the understanding of both Daoism and Buddhism.

 

Buddha said, "the Tathagata does not come and go."

Lao Tzu said, "the Tao doesn't come and go."

 

As a contemporary example, many students of Chögyam Trungpa say that Trungpa died before presenting all that was to be presented, thus, the students were guided through Grade School, but not given the opportunity to attend High School or beyond,...so they have two options,...one, to maintain a strict purist tradition of the Grade School level teachings,...or two, like the Third Turning of the Wheel after Theravada, uncover higher education, and beyond by other methods, perhaps not to the liking of strict fundamentalists.

[silas]

Buddha sai, "the Tathagata does not come and go."

Lao Tzu said, "the Tao doesn't come and go."

 

... uncover higher education, and beyond by other methods, perhaps not to the liking of strict fundamentalists.

 

 

From the TaoTeChing ch. 25 (Lau):

 

I give it the makeshift name of 'the great'.

Being great, it is further described as receding,

Receding, it is described as far away,

Being far away, it is described as turning back.

 

As for higher education, there can be no higher than Tao. However, syncretic teaching can conflict. If the conflict is not resolved, it causes doubt. That is why Christians speak of doubt all the time, because they are all being lured away by talk of reason. And the same could be said of Buddhists, Taoists, etc.

 

[Marblehead]

It is good to doubt. Question everything.

[Vmarco]

The Hua Hu Ching 化胡經 is a Buddhist-inflected version of the TaoTeChing. Some of its concepts conflict with classical Taoism. The title translates as "Transformation Of The Barbarians" - a religious conversion text. The title is uncomfortable for me.

 

Yes,....pretty similar to how the Christian Church Fathers threw out the Gospel of Thomas, and call it gnostic trash that pollutes the institution of Christianity,...and of course, their own indoctrination.

 

"The biggest crux to the evolution of humanity is breaking through your own indoctrination. It is very, very difficult to overcome emotional elements that have become so engrained in you, that you have an immediate reaction, an immediate suffering and pain, if something interfers with [your idea of the status quo]. It's a very, very complex problem. We have to learn how to identify and break our own indoctrination if we expect to move forward at all as a civilization" PJ Merola

[Vmarco]

All true what you have said but many Religious Toists like it, especially those of the Buddhist religion. (I'm not say Vmarco is a Religious Taoist please understand.)

 

I would differ with that,...Religious Taoists loathe it,...but non-religious Taoists use it. Same with Buddhism,...the majority of Buddhists are religious, especially Theravada. At the Mahayana level, religion begins to break down,...and at the prajnaparamita level, religion is seen as a barrier to Heart Consciousness.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

Would you say more? Or point me to an appropriate previous post of yours?

 

I'd suggest Carl Brunnholzl 'The Heart Attack Sutra' as a primer for prajnaparamita.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Heart-Attack-Sutra-Commentary/dp/1559393912

 

It doesn't appear to be on audio,...which is ok,...my copy is the most scribbled in book I own....cover to cover underlining and notes. LOL

 

Prajnaparamita IMO is the greatest of subjects,...look forward to discussing it sometime. The Pit will be perfect,...as the content is very upsetting to ego..

 

One of my "bucket list" goals is to go to Jakarta to see the Prajnaparamita statue at the museum,...she is so beautiful,...I plan on getting there this year.

 

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=fp-yie10&va=prajnaparamita+statue.

[Marblehead]

I would differ with that,...Religious Taoists loathe it,...but non-religious Taoists use it. Same with Buddhism,...the majority of Buddhists are religious, especially Theravada. At the Mahayana level, religion begins to break down,...and at the prajnaparamita level, religion is seen as a barrier to Heart Consciousness.

I'll just take your word for that as my knowledge based is inadequate to make any judgement call.

[Vmarco]

I'll just take your word for that as my knowledge based is inadequate to make any judgement call.

 

You could take my word for this,...that no one uncovers the Heart through belief.

 

Religion, as far as I'm concerned, is defined as a set of beliefs. Yet, I also see religion as that which limits. If Taoism is limited to the TTC,...I would suspect religion. I the TTC is a spring board you use to realize the Tao,...I would suspect it is a non-religion.

 

I recall the member Aaron,...very well versed on the TTC,...and vigorously challenged my use of the Hua Hu Ching. However,...Aaron strives for something deeper,...so he read the HHC, and reported back (my paraphrase) that he found it helpful with his understanding of the TTC.

 

I like quoting the HHC because it is generally outside the box of traditional Taoism,...thus forcing a broader view,...or identifying one's self limitations.

 

"When people say 'I have faith' [in the Bible, the Qu'ran, or the TTC], what they really mean is 'I don't want to know the truth'." Nietzsche

[Vmarco]

MODERATORS....PLEASE RETURN THIS TO THE PIT...or I will be unable to continuing posting on this thread.

 

V

[zerostao]

"or I will be unable to continuing posting on this thread."

 

as per your request (for now at least)

i am 'not about; trying to supress expression of ideas.

[Marblehead]

You could take my word for this,...that no one uncovers the Heart through belief.

Okay.

Religion, as far as I'm concerned, is defined as a set of beliefs. Yet, I also see religion as that which limits. If Taoism is limited to the TTC,...I would suspect religion. If the TTC is a spring board you use to realize the Tao,...I would suspect it is a non-religion.

Atheists don't have religions. IMO any person who labels themself "Philosophical Taoist" should also label themself "Atheist". And I would agree that Religious Taoism sets limits whereas Philosophical Taoism has very few limits. (I wish I could have said no limits but I must stay honest with the many translations I have read.)

I like quoting the HHC because it is generally outside the box of traditional Taoism,...thus forcing a broader view,...or identifying one's self limitations.

I have never tried to denigrate the value of the HHC for some people. What I protest is the use of quoting from it and saying Lao Tzu said whatever when what was presented was pure Buddhist thought that actually contradicts what Lao Tzu actually said.

"When people say 'I have faith' [in the Bible, the Qu'ran, or the TTC], what they really mean is 'I don't want to know the truth'." Nietzsche

Hehehe. You are getting closer to me calling you an Atheist by quoting Nietzsche.

 

Nietzsche wanted us to think for ourself. Some of us can't or prefer to not do so.

[Marblehead]

"or I will be unable to continuing posting on this thread."

 

as per your request (for now at least)

i am 'not about; trying to supress expression of ideas.

I could always make some inflammatory statement regarding humanity in order to keep it here. Hehehe. Or maybe generalize Vmarco's philosophy in such a way that he feels it is a personal insult.

[Vmarco]

 

Okay.

Atheists don't have religions.

I really disagree with that,...a religion, as a set of beliefs,...covers all atheists who do not "believe" in a god. Thus,...semantically,...atheism is a religious point of view. Those who reject any notion of a god out of honesty, or have realized that there is no god, probably should not be called atheist,...the former, usually being Buddhists. LOL

[Vmarco]

I could always make some inflammatory statement regarding humanity in order to keep it here. Hehehe. Or maybe generalize Vmarco's philosophy in such a way that he feels it is a personal insult.

The first would work,...and I appreciate the offer,...the second wouldn't,...because some here are quite familiar that I'm not personal about anything.

[Vmarco]

Nietzsche wanted us to think for ourself. Some of us can't or prefer to not do so.

This is a huge subject. Thinking for oneself would be an significant step towards the end of thinking,...that is, getting beyond thinking. However, most,...and I'm literally talking 84% or more,...as you said "can't or prefer not to."

 

So,...can they,...or do they prefer not to?

 

Either way,...those (the majority) who prefer not to think for themselves, elect those like themselves who can't think for themselves,...and thus society,...that is the anti-society,...governs the whole.

 

“As a man is, so he sees.” William Blake

[Marblehead]

So,...can they,...or do they prefer not to?

Damn! You done good with that response. Yes, I think that the overwhelming majority could easily think for themselves. But it is so much easier to fall into formation and listen to the commands of the leader and do as told.

 

Either way,...those (the majority) who prefer not to think for themselves, elect those like themselves who can't think for themselves,...and thus society,...that is the anti-society,...governs the whole.

 

Yep. It is easier to follow orders and blame the leader for all the problems than it is to think for ourself and make our own decisions and accept responsibility when something goes wrong.

[silas]

You could take my word for this,...that no one uncovers the Heart through belief.

 

Religion, as far as I'm concerned, is defined as a set of beliefs. Yet, I also see religion as that which limits. If Taoism is limited to the TTC,...I would suspect religion. I the TTC is a spring board you use to realize the Tao,...I would suspect it is a non-religion.

 

Religion that is without limits is called Eclecticism, which can leave you without guidance, without truth - except the idea of no truth. The TaoTeChing can seem very open-ended, very pluralistic, but it does have its own set of subtle precepts that inform interpretation of the text.

 

True Eclecticism is nihilistic and can destroy you. What is true Eclecticism? It is paying heed to all truths without consideration of context, without the ability to filter. Such a person can be led to his own slaughter.

Edited July 15, 2013 by silas

[Stosh]

Nevermind

Edited July 15, 2013 by Stosh

[narveen]

Oh, I understand Taoism, at least well enough to satisfy my mind. And I really don't need to understand The Tao as long as I understand many of its processes. With that one can be there without knowing it.

 

ok, so what is your number, you reckon?

[narveen]

The first would work,...and I appreciate the offer,...the second wouldn't,...because some here are quite familiar that I'm not personal about anything.

 

only the dead is not personal about anything.

put two fingers to right side of your neck just under the jaw

do you detect a pulse?

[rene]

Religion that is without limits is called Eclecticism, which can leave you without guidance, without truth - except the idea of no truth. The TaoTeChing can seem very open-ended, very pluralistic, but it does have its own set of subtle precepts that inform interpretation of the text.

 

True Eclecticism is nihilistic and can destroy you. What is true Eclecticism? It is paying heed to all truths without consideration of context, without the ability to filter. Such a person can be led to his own slaughter.

 

silas, hi, excellent post.

 

Can you elaborate on what you feel the 'precepts that inform the interpretation' are?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

[This would be a great topic over in the ttc subform, btw, and then we wouldn't interrupt Vmarco's thread...]