Learning forgiveness vs. holding grudges

[narveen]

Some smart guys choose to get nailed by dolts, for the power of a martyr can change the course of history for millenia, and smart people know this.

 

knowing maya, it's true nature

would a smart guy wallow in it?

Edited July 13, 2013 by narveen

[Songtsan]

let me re-visit the basis for my mindless question.

you observed that you are a pawn of emotions

it’s like saying,

“i can’t help flying off the handle, maybe it’s my genetic predisposition, my dopamine level”.

therefore, it’s not your fault and forgiveness makes everything right.

 

you are separating yourself from your emotions

i am not responsible

the devil made me do it.

and that western mindset of diminished responsibility,

typically american, came out of europe through freud and jung

 

however, the eastern mindset that has given us all these spiritual cultivating stuff

is unforgiving and accepts no excuses for individual bad behaviour

if you lose it, you pay for it.

as told in this story of an American songtsan who lived in a high-end luxury “hood”

 

no forgiveness: he was forced to pay for it in singapore:

http://www.corpun.com/awfay9405.htm

 

and you say?

 

Sorry I was being flippant when I wrote that...really I am allowing my emotions to lead me around as this is my path...it is like Shiva riding the snake...I do it on purpose and I like it this way. I am in no hurry, nor am I attached to some higher goal - I am simply being who I am and enjoying it all the way...its a thrilling ride to be unattached and mostly fearless. I am in direct opposition to trying to control/fabricate myself as an enlightened being. Instead I will find enlightenment through the path of persevering through the craziness and learning the nature of humanity and the Tao. It is through the eyes of the blind that one can see, said the tongueless man. You grok?

[doc benway]

empty boat means no one is there either doing the wrong or needing the forgiveness.

 

if that is not not understanding of the parable, please share your learning.

if that is your understanding, i would like to take it apart.

 

your call.

That is only a partial interpretation of the empty boat.

It also means that it is YOU who are responsible - 100%.

Who else is there to be angry at? You surround yourself with your story and your karma.

Who is there to be angry at and who does one hold a grudge against?

The only way to move forward is to let go of what you are holding on to.

Edited July 13, 2013 by steve

[Stosh]

agree, it's democracy agree, it's personal uh oh, counsel is speculating and importing an unidentifiable entity in his argumentsuperstition not allowed conclusion is hokeythe jury is to disregard this

can you sin against a ham sandwich? Can it sin against you?

As everyone does, I am speaking from my own perspective, and I do not consider tao to be so undefined that nothing can be said about it.

A blob is incompletely described and yet there are blobs which one understands would not be houseplants.

You theist you.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Stosh

[narveen]

That is only a partial interpretation of the empty boat.

It also means that it is YOU who are responsible - 100%.

Who else is there to be angry at? You surround yourself with your story and your karma.

Who is there to be angry at and who does one hold a grudge against?

The only way to move forward is to let go of what you are holding on to.

 

would you be kind enough to explain further?

i cannot get a fix on what you are pointing out.

i need a clear shot.

[narveen]

Sorry I was being flippant when I wrote that...really I am allowing my emotions to lead me around as this is my path...it is like Shiva riding the snake...I do it on purpose and I like it this way. I am in no hurry, nor am I attached to some higher goal - I am simply being who I am and enjoying it all the way...its a thrilling ride to be unattached and mostly fearless. I am in direct opposition to trying to control/fabricate myself as an enlightened being. Instead I will find enlightenment through the path of persevering through the craziness and learning the nature of humanity and the Tao. It is through the eyes of the blind that one can see, said the tongueless man. You grok?

 

yeah, i grok.

 

being who we are in a state of freedom is the whole point to living

one can either sail, without inhibitions, the seas of maya driven by the winds of emotions,

or one can sail freely the seas of nirvana driven by the winds of intelligence.

 

the winds of emotions are anger, greed, lust, envy, fear, etc..

they seem to drive us on the rocks inevitably;

yet, we can't seem to live without emotions.

 

what do you say?

[doc benway]

would you be kind enough to explain further?

i cannot get a fix on what you are pointing out.

i need a clear shot.

 

Hmmm, not sure what you are looking for. I'll leave that up to you.

I am practicing "being the empty boat"

Feel free to take a poke at whatever you like.

The more of us questioning our words, the better.

 

 

So far nobody has come to ask for my forgiveness. I don't think any body owe my anything in his/her mind.

 

I'd love to get forgiveness from a few people. However I don't think it matters.

 

If the glory belongs to God/Tao, the blame goes there too.

 

I would enjoy your forgiveness and freely offer mine.

 

 

 

better than forgiveness is a vulnerability

no skin

 

is it possible to bear no scars, no memory of pain

no matter how many times stabbed in the back

 

i know this sound stupid

like turning the other cheek

that was what jesus meant, i think

 

what do you think?

 

 

i know it all sounds naive and ridiculous

to have no defense

in the world we are in

 

Security in this life is illusion.

The only security is acceptance of that fact.

You are onto the correct approach here, I think.

When I practice vulnerability, and lose my skin, I transcend the illusion of separation.

Then the true meaning of sin becomes apparent - sin means to go against oneself.

That is the beginning of compassion, and that is what is needed for forgiveness.

Edited July 13, 2013 by steve

[narveen]

Hmmm, not sure what you are looking for. I'll leave that up to you.

I am practicing "being the empty boat"

 

how would you do this in daily life

interactions with other people without conflict?

there are always boats heading your direction

when you are not looking

 

Security in this life is illusion.

The only security is acceptance of that fact.

 

accepting that fact is one thing,

dealing with it is another.

 

in this regard, how would you answer songtsan's question quoted below:

 

" I wonder - say if you are in accord with the Tao, and you get robbed every time you travel along a certain road, by the same group of bandits. Let's say its the only way to get to work Now...you have to go to work, right? Let's just pretend yes. Would the person who lives from Taomind be prepared for whats going to happen, or would they still just be in Tao and deal with it fresh every time, without freezing up in expectation?"

[doc benway]

how would you do this in daily life

interactions with other people without conflict?

there are always boats heading your direction

when you are not looking

 

It is a skill one can develop with diligence and motivation.

It gets easier with practice.

It is related to practicing acceptance.

 

And who claims life will be without conflict?

... conflict comes and goes.

 

Letting go simply involves not being attached to the outcome or averse to the experience of conflict.

It is there, be with it, then choose based on your values.

 

 

accepting that fact is one thing,

dealing with it is another.

 

in this regard, how would you answer songtsan's question quoted below:

 

" I wonder - say if you are in accord with the Tao, and you get robbed every time you travel along a certain road, by the same group of bandits. Let's say its the only way to get to work Now...you have to go to work, right? Let's just pretend yes. Would the person who lives from Taomind be prepared for whats going to happen, or would they still just be in Tao and deal with it fresh every time, without freezing up in expectation?"

 

Wu wei does not mean that we do not learn and grow, or act or react. It simply means not going against your nature.

It is not going against oneself. It is the same as to not sin. If I intentionally walk some where I know I will be attacked, I can fight, run, or choose another approach. Its pretty simple. Do what is in your nature - the fighter will fight, the runner will run, the creative mind might find another way, like find another job...

[h.uriahr]

Pray. That's what works for me. Confess it aloud, in your closet, your car, wherever. Turn the internal into power by voice.

Don't give power to your problems by talking to it but COMMAND it. Release it. Forgiving is like releasing the ropes to a ship or a hot air balloon. You have to cut it and let it go. Do it for yourself but also do it for the other party as well.

[narveen]

Pray. That's what works for me. Confess it aloud, in your closet, your car, wherever. Turn the internal into power by voice. Don't give power to your problems by talking to it but COMMAND it. Release it. Forgiving is like releasing the ropes to a ship or a hot air balloon. You have to cut it and let it go. Do it for yourself but also do it for the other party as well.

 

what is your creed?

is it a personal one or that of a religion practised by others also?

[narveen]

It is a skill one can develop with diligence and motivation.

It gets easier with practice.

It is related to practicing acceptance.

 

what do you mean by acceptance?

let's stick with the empty boat parable

what is the connection between your practice of acceptance

and the message of the parable?

 

And who claims life will be without conflict?

... conflict comes and goes.

 

Chuang Tzu claimed that life will be without conflict

if people collide like empty boats

without either intent or emotion

 

Letting go simply involves not being attached to the outcome or averse to the experience of conflict.

It is there, be with it, then choose based on your values.

 

this is not consistent with the message of the parable

if conflict arises, then the boat is not empty

it's occupied.

all occupants are assholes

asking assholes to let go and not be attached

is to ask people to get therapy or practice a religion.

 

Wu wei does not mean that we do not learn and grow, or act or react. It simply means not going against your nature.

It is not going against oneself. It is the same as to not sin. If I intentionally walk some where I know I will be attacked, I can fight, run, or choose another approach. Its pretty simple. Do what is in your nature - the fighter will fight, the runner will run, the creative mind might find another way, like find another job...

 

you are talking your brand of taoism here.

do what is in one's nature is great

what about the consequences?

get real.

Edited July 14, 2013 by narveen

[Songtsan]

what do you mean by acceptance?

let's stick with the empty boat parable

what is the connection between your practice of acceptance

and the message of the parable?

 

 

Chuang Tzu claimed that life will be without conflict

if people collide like empty boats

without neither intent nor emotion

 

 

this is not consistent with the message of the parable

if conflict arises, then the boat is not empty

it's occupied.

all occupants are assholes

asking assholes to let go and not be attached

is to ask people to get therapy or practice a religion.

 

 

you are talking your brand of taoism here.

do what is in one's nature is great

what about the consequences?

get real.

 

Please see my post titled 'My great realization' I discuss caring for self/other there..

 

what I think is that when YinYang are balanced, one will care equally for self/other and conflict will not arise, for one would not hurt the self, nor would one hurt the other. Doing as one's nature decrees is only OK if one is balanced. If one is not balanced, one will do things in the extreme, and overbalance - one will either do more for oneself, in which case bad things could happen, such as greed, envy, strife, stealing, etc. or one will do more for other, in which case bad things will happen, such as overextending ones energy, giving too much away, not caring for self.

 

It would make sense that wu wei only works when Yin and Yang are balanced, otherwise your natural actions could be rash. You will get into trouble. Seek Yin Yang balance before enjoying wu wei.

[narveen]

It would make sense that wu wei only works when Yin and Yang are balanced, otherwise your natural actions could be rash. You will get into trouble. Seek Yin Yang balance before enjoying wu wei.

 

Chuang Tzu's empty boat is a buddha ideal

no self in action

 

however, i have to deal with the occupant of my boat, namely me.

as such, the next best thing, in an unintended collision in life,

is your approach - a balanced response to conflict

one that cause no consequences (karma)