Art As A Spiritual Quest.

[doc benway]

I cant get clear on this subject myself, as it relates to standard views.

It could use closer inspection.

If a person had a baby child , would not that event be filled with meaning and at the same time spirituality?

If the parent didnt care about the child at all, would not the event be without spirituality and/or meaning ?

I've had children and my best friend recently became a father.

Lots and lots of meaning and, again, all of that is related to human expectation, desire, conditioning and all of that.

Simply observing the baby and developing a relationship over time is a deeply spiritual experience but not really any 'meaning' involved per se. If the parent did not care about the child, that would be full of meaning. It would speak volumes about their psychology, emotional intelligence, and maturity, etc... Again, not so sure there is spiritual content there, at least not the way I look at spiritual content.

 

I dont know that our personal perspective is not also a truth. Im thinking it is , subjective though it may be

 

Great point - I wrestle with this idea. I think I agree with you on this but I also think that the idea of personal perspective as truth transcends the actual content (that which is imbued with meaning).

 

 

 

Lost the box here for some reason.. so youre in red

As I have progressed through different stages of spiritual inquiry, I find that it relates less and less to meaning and more and more to being. Looking for meaning is well and good and is a natural consequence of the human mind and verbal ability. But there are certain fundamental questions that arise where meaning just doesn't apply and contradiction is everywhere, and that is where spirituality begins, for me at least...

Are you just thinking that giving up on 'making heads or tails' on a situation is the spiritual approach?

 

Hmmm, good question. It's not so much about giving up. In fact, as I write this, it is definitely NOT about giving up.

It is precisely the questions that are alive. It is the answers that are dead. The question sparks something within us. For straight forward matters, an answer may be obvious. Sometimes, it is more subtle and complex and the answer requires investigation. And at other times, there is no answer or there may be paradox, or contradictions. And sometimes, today's answer is tomorrow's question.

 

I guess my point is that it's more about allowing the question to be there and even to stimulate inquiry and yet not getting hung up on finding an answer or even that there is an answer to be found. Questions are alive - they stimulate and motivate us, they make life interesting. Answers are dead. They give us the illusion that we have mastered through understanding - more often than not, it is not truth. And when we spend too much time with questions and answers we miss all of the life that is going on around us.

[Stosh]

Maybe our definitions are out of phase ,, for 'meaning'

1. Something that is conveyed or signified; sense or significance.

2. Something that one wishes to convey, especially by language: The writer's meaning was obscured by his convoluted prose.

3. An interpreted goal, intent, or end: "The central meaning of his pontificate is to restore papal authority" (Conor Cruise O'Brien).

4. Inner significance:

Im thinking that the 'meaning' of a thing is embodied in how it relates, is defined relative to- another goal-objective

like a person , society , event

To have a meaning to one thing ,there must exist a goal affected by it.

"Significance" being a little more restricted to the quantitative aspect of the meant thing vs the goal.

[Stosh]

I guess my point is that it's more about allowing the question to be there and even to stimulate inquiry and yet not getting hung up on finding an answer or even that there is an answer to be found. Questions are alive - they stimulate and motivate us, they make life interesting. Answers are dead. They give us the illusion that we have mastered through understanding - more often than not, it is not truth. And when we spend too much time with questions and answers we miss all of the life that is going on around us

 

Im of an opinion that answers complete questions , its a natural cycle , better not to abort to prolong the life of the question at the expense of the cycle, there will be always new questions because the river is never the same twice, and because new answers beget new questions rather than leaving us to revolve around old questions in frustration.

But sure , we can get wrapped up in intellectual pursuits too.

Agreed on that.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Stosh

[doc benway]

Stosh - I think it's our definition (or expectations?) of spirituality that differs.

[Stosh]

Stosh - I think it's our definition (or expectations?) of spirituality that differs.

You may be right on that.

I'm thinking that folks define what is significant relative to themselves,

their aspirations , goals values etc. Like a child might be cherished ,

and this relationship would would have significance, be important , meaningful

and enriching ..even the tribulations.

Whereas the eternal tao makes no provisions at all for that relationship

The child could slowly freeze in a winter storm ,

unmoved , the snow remains cold.

Some feel that lack of bias or preference or reflection emulates the eternal Tao.

And so that peace of personal noninvolvement is virtue , is spiritual ..

.because it instigates no defensive worries concerns guilt sorrow retribution indignation anger.

My middle view may not be pure sanctioned taoism but it doesn't philosophically deny what it is to be human. It doesn't remove meaning from our lives even in argument. It just points to our biases as belonging to ourselves , and our own crosses to willingly bear alone.

Feel free to contrast that if you choose to, I won't challenge your right to your own view if it differs .

Edited July 16, 2013 by Stosh

[doc benway]

You may be right on that.

I'm thinking that folks define what is significant relative to themselves,

their aspirations , goals values etc. Like a child might be cherished ,

and this relationship would would have significance, be important , meaningful

and enriching ..even the tribulations.

Whereas the eternal tao makes no provisions at all for that relationship

The child could slowly freeze in a winter storm ,

unmoved , the snow remains cold.

Some feel that lack of bias or preference or reflection emulates the eternal Tao.

And so that peace of personal noninvolvement is virtue , is spiritual ..

.because it instigates no defensive worries concerns guilt sorrow retribution indignation anger.

My middle view may not be pure sanctioned taoism but it doesn't philosophically deny what it is to be human. It doesn't remove meaning from our lives even in argument. It just points to our biases as belonging to ourselves , and our own crosses to willingly bear alone.

Feel free to contrast that if you choose to, I won't challenge your right to your own view if it differs .

Compare and contrast perhaps...

 

I don't disagree with the significance of our emotional and psychological lives.

In fact, I think there is nothing more important than a careful examination of this part of us.

And I also agree that children freeze and starve and that nature seems indifferent.

But that is only true when we choose to separate ourselves from nature and pretend that we are not 'it.'

We are the very vehicle of nature's compassion.

To say that nature is indifferent is a complete dismissal of our very existence.

I don't mean to advocate that we adopt indifference or deny meaning in our lives.

But I do think that there is an aspect of being that is other than that which the thinker thinks.

Most of what you describe is a part of our narrative to ourselves.

The choices, preferences, desires, pain, etc...

I like to think about Krishnamurti's description of the possibility that something exists outside the sphere of our thoughts.

Something that is beyond knowledge and memory and even language.

Something always completely new and alive.

This is a place that is untouched by choice and judgement, and even meaning or explanation.

And he never tells us what it is, how to find it, or if it even exists.

He just raises possibility and we get to do what we want with it.

Just like we can with anything.

The cool thing is that the first time I read something by him (To Be Human), I felt that he actual reached out from the grave and through decades of time to slap me and wake me up and show me that I had to work things out for myself - very powerful transmission!

 

And please feel free to challenge anything I say.

I appreciate the conversation with you.

[Stosh]

You said a lot there I just dont 'get' Steve. Its even hard to bend my brain near that .

It has a nebulous feel Im not comfortable with.

I guess thats the aspect of 'art' as a 'Spiritual Quest" I object to ,

but other folks seem to be fine with.

the nebulous and 'wishy-washy'

 

Back to art though for now right?

Edited July 16, 2013 by Stosh

[doc benway]

You said a lot there I just dont 'get' Steve. Its even hard to bend my brain near that .

That's the point - you're not supposed to 'get' it.

If the brain can get it, it's not what I'm pointing to.

 

 

It has a nebulous feel Im not comfortable with.

I guess thats the aspect of 'art' as a 'Spiritual Quest" I object to ,

but other folks seem to be fine with.

the nebulous and 'wishy-washy'

When (if) you do head in that direction, you may soon come to find that there is nothing at all nebulous or 'wishy-washy' about it.

That said, there is no need to waste your time on anything that doesn't seem right to you.

Each of us has her own path to tread.

 

 

Back to art though for now right?

Sure thing, however, I'm not sure if we're talking about spirituality...

[Stosh]

I watched an interview with Mr Krishnamurti last night .

Gave the TM a try.

I was impressed by the ease and effectiveness of his TM approach .

Im a fan already .

Thanks.

Stosh

[doc benway]

Very cool to hear, I hope that resonates well with you...

I find Krishnamurti a little difficult to listen to so I have mostly read his stuff.

 

As luck would have it, I watched a film last night that brought me to a very spiritual place.

It's called "Good Dick" (no kidding) - the writer, director, and star is Marianna Palka.

[ralis]

[ralis]

The most interesting aspect of any Rembrandt is how he painted light.

 

 

[ralis]

A painting that intrigues me from the Gothic period.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2013 by ralis

[JohnC]

My buddy is trying to reposition modeling as fine art.

Check it out:

http://modelsociety.com/

 

https://modelsocietyimagecloud.blob.core.windows.net/modelsociety-imagecloud-image/60aaa1b8-8151-42a7-9a79-2d14a844ca28

[skydog]

gotta admit simple jacks posts had me laughing..

[Jetsun]

I quite like the Shamanistic art of Pablo Amaringo

 

[Unseen_Abilities]

-

Edited January 31, 2014 by Unseen_Abilities

[skydog]

My art (which is mainly music at this point) is generally becoming more spiritual in nature, and has changed drastically since I became interested in spirituality, so far it hasn't been a solely spiritual quest though.

 

Tom I see good things for you...

Edited July 18, 2013 by skydog

[skydog]

I have a love for Huichol Art

 

cant figure out how to upload a pic

Edited July 18, 2013 by skydog

[hagar]

Interesting thread

 

I must say, there´s a degree of romanticism about art these days. We turn to art when the modern life turns out to be too much of an ordeal.

 

What isn´t always mentioned in aesthetics is the fact that most contemporary art is pretty much a mind game, a reference-indiced competition onto which all artists have a degree of a pissing contest. Even the avant-garde painting movement is so reference-laden, that it´s actually not really about painting at all. Its about discussing painting; the whole thing is very conceptual and top-heavy.

 

Pretty much all conteporary art is a self-referencing tour de force. Its not really that interesting, and if it is it´s always discussing the end of art.

 

That said, after I defended modernist and post-modernist art in a discussion with my teacher (who pretty much rejected the whole notion of contemporary art as degenerated), I took a trip to the Louvre. There, I came across a fresco of Botticelli.

 

I turned a corner and there it was. Hanging on the wall. Immediately, before I was able to think, I felt tears running down my face. Therer was a sense of energy, a feeling of transmission, that emanated from the image. It took me completely over, and it was an energy of love. It was a transmission. It was startling to sense that this painter had created this image out of love. I felt it from the image itself.

 

I dont really know what I wanted to say with this post.

 

h

[Stosh]

The "philosopher in meditation" painting seems like an upsidedown Taijii symbol

does it not?

 

 

E. Darwin

The Loves of Plants

 

 

"Such as of late amid the murky sky

Was mark'd by Fuseli's poetic eye;

Whose daring tints, with Shakspeare's happiest grace,

Gave to the airy phantom form and place.

Back o'er her pillow sinks her blushing head,

Her snow-white limbs hang helpless from the bed;

Her interrupted heart-pulse swims in death.

 

O'er her fair limbs convulsive tremors fleet,

Start in her hands, and struggle in her feet;

In vain to scream with quivering lips she tries,

And strains in palsy'd lids her tremulous eyes;

In vain she wills to run, fly, swim, walk, creep;

The Will presides not in the bower of Sleep.

On her fair bosom sits the Demon-Ape

Erect, and balances his bloated shape;

Rolls in their marble orbs his Gorgon-eyes,

And drinks with leathern ears her tender cries"

 

Edited July 18, 2013 by Stosh

[zerostao]

"I dont really know what I wanted to say with this post."

 

the post was very nicely said !

[Songtsan]

A painting that intrigues me from the Gothic period.

 

 

 

that one is supposed to be about demon possession - supposedly the demons would sit on your chest and make it hard to breath - their are still people today who report this occurrence...its world-wide

[ralis]

The "philosopher in meditation" painting seems like an upsidedown Taijii symbol

does it not?

 

 

E. Darwin

The Loves of Plants

 

 

"Such as of late amid the murky sky

Was mark'd by Fuseli's poetic eye;

Whose daring tints, with Shakspeare's happiest grace,

Gave to the airy phantom form and place.

Back o'er her pillow sinks her blushing head,

Her snow-white limbs hang helpless from the bed;

Her interrupted heart-pulse swims in death.

 

O'er her fair limbs convulsive tremors fleet,

Start in her hands, and struggle in her feet;

In vain to scream with quivering lips she tries,

And strains in palsy'd lids her tremulous eyes;

In vain she wills to run, fly, swim, walk, creep;

The Will presides not in the bower of Sleep.

On her fair bosom sits the Demon-Ape

Erect, and balances his bloated shape;

Rolls in their marble orbs his Gorgon-eyes,

And drinks with leathern ears her tender cries"

 

 

Can you post the painting?

[Stosh]

Can you post the painting?

You already did , in post # 99,it is the philosopher one, right above Jeremiah

( mind you , it needs a cleaning so you can see the second woman better)

and of course the poem refers to the nightmare which is is in post 100

I was making a concerted effort not to wander off subject

Edited July 19, 2013 by Stosh