Question about relaxed diaphragm during seated postures

[Songtsan]

start from the lower back and keep going

 

dont bother getting into technicalities with CD, waste of time. no offense man.

 

I am also looking into retracting my lower ribs some, both sitting and standing. Not too much though.

[voidisyinyang]

The mind controls the breath.

 

When the chi electromagnetic increases then physical breathing is not needed as much - next to none -- the same with water and nutrition.

 

At that stage the centers of the hands and feet and top of the skull pulsate or "breath" with electromagnetic energy and so it is like electrolysis so that water is created inside the brain from hydrogen and oxygen and the same with oxygen -- so that physical breathing becomes next to nothing.

 

That is the immortal breathing stage.

 

So the mind should be focused on building up the chi energy - until then just a relaxed reverse breathing is fine but the mind should be focused on the Emptiness to build up the chi energy.

[Songtsan]

The mind controls the breath.

 

When the chi electromagnetic increases then physical breathing is not needed as much - next to none -- the same with water and nutrition.

 

At that stage the centers of the hands and feet and top of the skull pulsate or "breath" with electromagnetic energy and so it is like electrolysis so that water is created inside the brain from hydrogen and oxygen and the same with oxygen -- so that physical breathing becomes next to nothing.

 

That is the immortal breathing stage.

 

So the mind should be focused on building up the chi energy - until then just a relaxed reverse breathing is fine but the mind should be focused on the Emptiness to build up the chi energy.

 

I like much of this post, but from a yogic perspective one of the pranas controls the breath - apana prana maybe? I cant recall off the top of my head. I believe this to be associated with the autonomic control that the various glands and respiratory centers (i.e. pneumotaxic and apneustic centers) have. They monitor minute levels of O2 and CO2 and other indicators of respiratory things and adjust breathing rate, depth, etc, accordingly. This is not something that needs to be watched consciously. One can either let the body take care of breathing or purposefully control it oneself. I see advantages to both ways. I also see that one can program the breath over time to breathe differently, so that where one had to consciously control it at first, one can eventually let it go into automatic mode. It has to due with muscle memory and neuronal programming in the plastic architecture of the brain.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Songtsan

[voidisyinyang]

I like much of this post, but from a yogic perspective one of the pranas controls the breath - apana prana maybe? I cant recall off the top of my head. I believe this to be associated with the autonomic control that the various glands and respiratory centers (i.e. pneumotaxic and apneustic centers) have. They monitor minute levels of O2 and CO2 and other indicators of respiratory things and adjust breathing rate, depth, etc, accordingly. This is not something that needs to be watched consciously. One can either let the body take care of breathing or purposefully control it oneself. I see advantages to both ways. I also see that one can program the breath over time to breathe differently, so that where one had to consciously control it at first, one can eventually let it go into automatic mode. It has to due with muscle memory and neuronal programming in the plastic architecture of the brain.

 

 

So prana or qi controls breathing but shen or shakti controls prana.

 

The immortal breathing is when the eight extra channels are opened up of the macrocosmic orbit - so you can sit in full lotus in ease for 2 hours - no moving.

 

Shri Yukestwar called it : "breathless esctasy" - it is nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

So this level then goes beyond immortal breathing as detailed in Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality.

 

You focus the spirit on the lower tan tien so that the chi envelops the spirit energy.

 

The immortal breathing is then the chi moves up from the feet - the center of the feet - up to the brain via the spine while the spirit goes down the front of the body and so it cycles like this.

 

So you seem to want to know who regulates or controls this - the deeper level is to stay in Nirvikalpa Samadhi as the Emptiness - or God, etc.

 

So alchemically again this is focusing the light or spirit in the lower tan tien but holographically it means your spirit enveloped in chi energy then is powered as your awareness to leave your body - or actually your body is extended holographically.

 

Ummm.... so for example when I was in first grade I held my breath till I passed out and I hit my head on a couple cement corner walls and then on the cement floor, waking up to my head streaming out blood.

 

Western science says that's impossible because the intention to hold the breath by the prefrontal cortex is over-ridden by the anterior cingulate gyrus of the limbic brain.

 

But in non-western culture through yoga this is known -- for example the sherpas to qualify to guide the first ascent of Everest - they had to hold their breath till they passed out.

 

O.K. but when the chi energy is strong this bypasses the physical process of breathing and so the person does not pass out.

 

Instead the spirit goes beyond the body - or the body is extended - holographically.

 

So is it the stillness of the mind - to empty out the left brain ego - which then allows a samadhi light vision spirit state to then guide the chi energy - and so that is a holographic visionary level. To stay in the emptiness then is to deepen the nirvikalpa state - unattached to any of the energy phenomenon - instead just allowing awareness of the movement of energy -- by the Emptiness itself -- not the mind.

[Songtsan]

So prana or qi controls breathing but shen or shakti controls prana.

 

The immortal breathing is when the eight extra channels are opened up of the macrocosmic orbit - so you can sit in full lotus in ease for 2 hours - no moving.

 

Shri Yukestwar called it : "breathless esctasy" - it is nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

So this level then goes beyond immortal breathing as detailed in Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality.

 

You focus the spirit on the lower tan tien so that the chi envelops the spirit energy.

 

The immortal breathing is then the chi moves up from the feet - the center of the feet - up to the brain via the spine while the spirit goes down the front of the body and so it cycles like this.

 

So you seem to want to know who regulates or controls this - the deeper level is to stay in Nirvikalpa Samadhi as the Emptiness - or God, etc.

 

So alchemically again this is focusing the light or spirit in the lower tan tien but holographically it means your spirit enveloped in chi energy then is powered as your awareness to leave your body - or actually your body is extended holographically.

 

Ummm.... so for example when I was in first grade I held my breath till I passed out and I hit my head on a couple cement corner walls and then on the cement floor, waking up to my head streaming out blood.

 

Western science says that's impossible because the intention to hold the breath by the prefrontal cortex is over-ridden by the anterior cingulate gyrus of the limbic brain.

 

But in non-western culture through yoga this is known -- for example the sherpas to qualify to guide the first ascent of Everest - they had to hold their breath till they passed out.

 

O.K. but when the chi energy is strong this bypasses the physical process of breathing and so the person does not pass out.

 

Instead the spirit goes beyond the body - or the body is extended - holographically.

 

So is it the stillness of the mind - to empty out the left brain ego - which then allows a samadhi light vision spirit state to then guide the chi energy - and so that is a holographic visionary level. To stay in the emptiness then is to deepen the nirvikalpa state - unattached to any of the energy phenomenon - instead just allowing awareness of the movement of energy -- by the Emptiness itself -- not the mind.

 

I cant reply to everything you wrote here, but western science does state that one can hold the breath till one passes out, just that as soon as one passes out, that voluntary control one had achieved over the breath will be lost in unconsciousness and the autonomic control will take place and restore the breath.

 

Also I would say that chemicals indirectly control breathing. If gaining total awareness and control over the chi equals learning control of the autonomic nervous system, then what you say makes sense. Energy controls chemistry. This would be good to know. I am running out of ideas about this topic however, as I have been brainstorming on several subjects at once, and I think I should go do some research now before I say more. I would hate to say something patently untrue out of ignorance or by making unfounded suppositions. I think I will return to this topic in a few days as I start doing some research on my own.

[voidisyinyang]

If gaining total awareness and control over the chi equals learning control of the autonomic nervous system, then what you say makes sense.

 

The vagus nerve is what controls breathing. So for example - I can just activate my vagus nerve by "flexing" my pineal gland. But sitting in full lotus for a couple hours then first sublimates the lower body hormones via the right side vagus nerve and then brings them down to the heart via the left side vagus nerve. So then that slows down the breathing.

 

So there is body posture, mind, breathing, and sound.

 

Those are the four basic principles of Spring Forest Qigong.

 

But Chunyi Lin says the most simple is the most powerful and so this means unconditional love as consciousness which just goes into the Emptiness.

 

But what guides the energy is the yin-yang dynamics.

 

You want to say the autonomic system takes over during unconsciousness -- yes - but through meditation you slow down your thoughts so you go into the deep dreamless state and so this also slows down the breathing and heart rate while also increasing the electromagnetic energy via the heart.

 

Posture will do this through the yin-yang dynamics and then the small universe meditation combines the mind with synchronized breathing and sound - Ohm and Mua - and then also posture.

 

So if you sit in full lotus with the tongue against the roof of the mouth then the small universe will happen naturally.

 

The necessity for breathing will decrease as the mind also decreases and then the chi energy increases.

 

But this only works through celibacy - first the jing energy has to be built up - and so to achieve the nirvikalpa state is the goal but it is also rare - the immortal breathing stage. I got to this just on a beginners level.

 

So then the spirit energy has to be stored up in the lower tan tien so that the spirit is enveloped by chi energy - to do this means to leave the mundane world - and so already the chi energy is very strong - the electromagnetic fields enable you to go without food, without water, and also without breathing - all on a minimal level. So this stage means left brain thoughts are also minimal.

 

That stage is called converting jing to chi energy -- so it has to be done based on the Emptiness as the source of energy - your light spirit love consciousness combined with the prana going into the Emptiness.

 

It's just a matter of meditation practice.

 

The endless mind fixation is a materialist limitation and so the breathing will always be stuck on a materialist level without the real development of chi energy. You might get some yin chi energy but there can only be a real build up of jing energy by relying on the Emptiness.

 

Mind concentration does not require thinking but rather requires pointed concentration and visualization - so that the left brain is suppressed and then as the chi energy builds up then the pineal gland electromagnetic energy increases to the higher frequency of the spirit shen energy.

 

So then at that stage the thoughts are spirit-based - not normal thoughts - but direct perception based on light energy and then chi energy. But if the mind is still relied on then it creates imbalance as the mind energy is too limited - the source of the energy is no thoughts - no visions - just Listening to the source of sound - to build up the yin-yang energy dynamics through the full lotus posture.

 

Can you sit in full lotus posture? Because that will activate the proper breathing -- just staying in the full lotus posture.

 

O.K. for example if I get the hiccups -- it is much easier to just flex or focus the pineal gland to stop the hiccups - rather than to flex my diaphragm to stop the hiccups.

 

I posted this as a thread because I did the experiment - I could not stop my hiccups by flexing the diaphragm. I was still having a limited materialist definition of reality.

 

So then I just flexed my pineal gland - just again as final resort -- and the hiccups stopped immediately.

 

I knew this was possible because I read how the reflex to sneeze is controlled by the back of the brain and so I can also flex the pineal gland to stop sneezing.

 

But anyway hiccups are caused by a spasm of the diaphgram.

 

So to slow down the breathing requires first to slow down the mind by increasing the heart chi energy - and this means to first open up the body chi channels by building up the jing energy which requires Emptiness meditation.

[joeblast]

I like much of this post, but from a yogic perspective one of the pranas controls the breath - apana prana maybe? I cant recall off the top of my head. I believe this to be associated with the autonomic control that the various glands and respiratory centers (i.e. pneumotaxic and apneustic centers) have. They monitor minute levels of O2 and CO2 and other indicators of respiratory things and adjust breathing rate, depth, etc, accordingly. This is not something that needs to be watched consciously. One can either let the body take care of breathing or purposefully control it oneself. I see advantages to both ways. I also see that one can program the breath over time to breathe differently, so that where one had to consciously control it at first, one can eventually let it go into automatic mode. It has to due with muscle memory and neuronal programming in the plastic architecture of the brain.

now put this stuff together with what I've said about mindfully streamlining and making the breath more efficient and what its net effect is on the subconscious breathing protocol that the medulla is programmed with

[hydrogen]

I don't look for it - it comes naturally all the time..it's how I unwind too. I am so active all the time that it is good to shut my nervous system down, give it a chance to cool off. The less you do, the less energy flowing through the system, gives the neurons a chance to regenerate.

 

It's almost like a waking sleep state, very blissful and relaxed.

 

I don't understand why you bother with "lower" methods while you know how to get into the "zone" already.

[Songtsan]

I don't understand why you bother with "lower" methods while you know how to get into the "zone" already.

 

I see purpose in both ways...plus its for the book, I need to know all angles. I am not trying to develop a one-size-fits all system, but instead discuss the benefits and differences between various systems and write it so that a person can decide for themselves what direction they would like to head towards.

[hydrogen]

I see purpose in both ways...plus its for the book, I need to know all angles. I am not trying to develop a one-size-fits all system, but instead discuss the benefits and differences between various systems and write it so that a person can decide for themselves what direction they would like to head towards.

 

I'd like to know your method to get into the zone please if you care to share.

[Songtsan]

I'd like to know your method to get into the zone please if you care to share.

 

I have more than one...the one I was referring to here was this: Remove as much muscle tension, nervous system tension as possible - do whole body scans to start with...Once you have achieved a deep level of body relaxation, focus on letting the breath breathe itself. Just watch - do not try to interfere, or superimpose any rhythm other than that which occurs due to autonomic functioning. I usually watch the stomach area around the navel/diaphragm/or just under the navel - whichever one feels best. If you do this, you will notice some fits and starts at first, and then suddenly you will find the body settles into a new rhythm on its own. Keep checking to make sure that you aren't adding/subtracting to it with your conscious will. Eventually as you are completely motionless, and the muscle/nervous energy is mostly silent, you will find your breathing becoming less and less and even more shallow. You will find that your body becomes extremely sensitive to its own sounds/feelings. You will feel your heart beat rocking your body back and forth slightly. As your mind becomes more empty, allow yourself to go into a sort of half-asleep state, let the mind drop off some. This isn't about hyper-awareness - it is about a waking sleep state. I use this one specifically because my mind is so active that I have trouble going to sleep at night. It works well for me. If you have a more subdued relaxed mind on average, it may not be for you - its more for hyper-mentalities.

 

As you get deeper, you will find that you are almost in a sort of trance like state, mainly aware of breathe, heart beat a little. This is not a deep meditation, it is more a way to relax while not sleeping - you get into a more relaxed brain state - theta maybe? depends on you. Sometimes I wear my ipod and listen to isochronic tones - which help to get into that type of state - so its about calming the entire nervous system, and ending wild fluctuations. Its sort of meditation, but sort of not - your wisdom eye is open, but sort of half-lidded - you are a little asleep. It is very relaxing and renewing. At the end, I usually re-invigorate myself by stretching, shaking my body, moving chi around again, etc.

[hydrogen]

I have more than one...the one I was referring to here was this: Remove as much muscle tension, nervous system tension as possible - do whole body scans to start with...Once you have achieved a deep level of body relaxation, focus on letting the breath breathe itself. Just watch - do not try to interfere, or superimpose any rhythm other than that which occurs due to autonomic functioning. I usually watch the stomach area around the navel/diaphragm/or just under the navel - whichever one feels best. If you do this, you will notice some fits and starts at first, and then suddenly you will find the body settles into a new rhythm on its own. Keep checking to make sure that you aren't adding/subtracting to it with your conscious will. Eventually as you are completely motionless, and the muscle/nervous energy is mostly silent, you will find your breathing becoming less and less and even more shallow. You will find that your body becomes extremely sensitive to its own sounds/feelings. You will feel your heart beat rocking your body back and forth slightly. As your mind becomes more empty, allow yourself to go into a sort of half-asleep state, let the mind drop off some. This isn't about hyper-awareness - it is about a waking sleep state. I use this one specifically because my mind is so active that I have trouble going to sleep at night. It works well for me. If you have a more subdued relaxed mind on average, it may not be for you - its more for hyper-mentalities.

 

As you get deeper, you will find that you are almost in a sort of trance like state, mainly aware of breathe, heart beat a little. This is not a deep meditation, it is more a way to relax while not sleeping - you get into a more relaxed brain state - theta maybe? depends on you. Sometimes I wear my ipod and listen to isochronic tones - which help to get into that type of state - so its about calming the entire nervous system, and ending wild fluctuations. Its sort of meditation, but sort of not - your wisdom eye is open, but sort of half-lidded - you are a little asleep. It is very relaxing and renewing. At the end, I usually re-invigorate myself by stretching, shaking my body, moving chi around again, etc.

 

Can you go deeper with your method? How long can you be that state in a session? How often can you be in this state? What's the side effect? Do you enjoy being in this state?

[Songtsan]

Can you go deeper with your method? How long can you be that state in a session? How often can you be in this state? What's the side effect? Do you enjoy being in this state?

 

I think this may be a lot like Vipassana, but I add an element of half-lidded wakefulness in order to calm my extremely agitated emotional/nervous system - its really probably a personal thing. I doubt most people have to deal with the neurosis that I do. If you are of calmer mentality than me, I can think of better things to practice. I don't consider this a full meditation for that reason.

 

Side effect is much like taking a power nap. Sympathetic system gets curtailed, parasympathetic goes up. When I start to move again I feel a little groggy. I didn't fall asleep, yet things definitely shifted on a physiological level. My blood pressure goes down, heart rate slows. The relative stillness of my nervous system is what I am seeking basically. I think it may actually be similar to doing an extended savasana. I let my attention rove around the breathing in the area of the stomach/navel/diaphragm. I keep my hips elevated, back straight, half lotus position. It clears me of the extra energy that is like having had too much coffee. The basis of it is simply extreme muscle & nervous system relaxation with no attempts to influence the breath either by adding impetus or by holding it back. Then I just watch the breathing, while allowing my mind to fall into a half-lidded wakefulness - a sort of not extreme mental focus, but just enough to avoid falling asleep. It is really comforting, but I don't know that it will take one far in terms of attainments. It is probably very much related to western progressive neuromuscular relaxation techniques. I just focus a little bit more on the nervous system relaxing than they would.

[hydrogen]

I think this may be a lot like Vipassana, but I add an element of half-lidded wakefulness in order to calm my extremely agitated emotional/nervous system - its really probably a personal thing. I doubt most people have to deal with the neurosis that I do. If you are of calmer mentality than me, I can think of better things to practice. I don't consider this a full meditation for that reason.

 

Side effect is much like taking a power nap. Sympathetic system gets curtailed, parasympathetic goes up. When I start to move again I feel a little groggy. I didn't fall asleep, yet things definitely shifted on a physiological level. My blood pressure goes down, heart rate slows. The relative stillness of my nervous system is what I am seeking basically. I think it may actually be similar to doing an extended savasana. I let my attention rove around the breathing in the area of the stomach/navel/diaphragm. I keep my hips elevated, back straight, half lotus position. It clears me of the extra energy that is like having had too much coffee. The basis of it is simply extreme muscle & nervous system relaxation with no attempts to influence the breath either by adding impetus or by holding it back. Then I just watch the breathing, while allowing my mind to fall into a half-lidded wakefulness - a sort of not extreme mental focus, but just enough to avoid falling asleep. It is really comforting, but I don't know that it will take one far in terms of attainments. It is probably very much related to western progressive neuromuscular relaxation techniques. I just focus a little bit more on the nervous system relaxing than they would.

 

I think it's a good base to start with so long you enjoy the process.

[Songtsan]

I think it's a good base to start with so long you enjoy the process.

 

yeah I consider it 'seated savasana' - anything can take you deeper...I just need to learn to get that level of calm while letting my mind stay more awake.

[松永道]

start from the lower back and keep going

 

 

This is good advice for consciously sinking the breath. Lower back is key.

 

In the Taiji classics there is a saying that you want the Qi to stick to your back. This starts with anchoring breath in the lower back.

[Songtsan]

This is good advice for consciously sinking the breath. Lower back is key. In the Taiji classics there is a saying that you want the Qi to stick to your back. This starts with anchoring breath in the lower back.

 

Hmmm...! Interesting....so is it analogous to the dantien (mingmen?) area - just flip side? Do you anchor chi on both sides?

 

If you have time, tell me more could you?

[joeblast]

Diaphragm merges with the anterior longitudinal ligament around T12-L1-L2, mingmen area. Descending from here, the junction of diaphragm, psoas, the action sinks the breath down the anterior side of the spine to the dantien, 2 inches below the navel (and the energy center is front:back 3:7.) Let the descending motion extend to the dantien, then diaphragm and psoas relax on exhale.

[Songtsan]

Diaphragm merges with the anterior longitudinal ligament around T12-L1-L2, mingmen area. Descending from here, the junction of diaphragm, psoas, the action sinks the breath down the anterior side of the spine to the dantien, 2 inches below the navel (and the energy center is front:back 3:7.) Let the descending motion extend to the dantien, then diaphragm and psoas relax on exhale.

 

Your level of detail is refreshing. Thank you.

 

I am all about specificity.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Songtsan