BK Frantzis - Taoist Energy Bodies

[Branderplank]

I know that some of the books of BK Frantzis deal with the Taoist view on energy bodies. Are these books any good in dealing with this subject?

 

What other materials or classics out there deal with the same subject?

[Tsunami_MAPUA]

While waiting for other replies, let me tell you that I first heard of the concept from Kumar. There's also some similar ideas from people who write about astral projection.

 

Other than that, I'm not aware if there's any other contemporary teachers of Taoism who also touch on this subject. If there is, I want to know too and hear his perspective.

[baiqi]

Quite the same here. I heard about similar ideas (although a bit different) in Tantrism, Hinduism. It might well be an addition of hindu concepts in Taoism.

 

The BF books I have deal with the subjects just give a short description of the eight energy bodies. To sum it up:

 

1:physical body

2: body of energy

3: emotional body

4: mental body

5: psychic body

6: karmic body

7: body of individuality

8: The Dao.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I see why google may not have been a great help to you, an amazing lack of results for that search. Try searching for weigi fields instead .

 

Jerry Alan Johnson's medical qigong books are my fave... It's in the first one.

 

Which must also mean that there are some traditional chinese medicine books out there which also cover it. The older ones perhaps. I haven't studied this nearly enough to know which ones yet though. As I understand it most moder TCM schools don't put nearly as much focus on such things.

 

Also some of the standard Daoist classics must have this information in them. (clearly I need to do much more reading, and more memorizing of what I read lol). The books attributed to the Yellow Emperor would be one of my guesses.

 

And, I would think most books on QiGong would cover it. It's been awhile since I've read through any though.

 

Some of the martial arts books may cover this as well.

 

Perhaps a google books or amazon.com search, many newer books have a search inside feature.

[Branderplank]

I tried to google for "weigi field", but nothing came up.

[ChiDragon]

I believe weiqi is 衛氣. I think the TCM defines as the equivalent to the immune system.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Sorry for the typo! Weiqi field.

[ChiDragon]

Sorry, never heard of such thing as Weiqi field.

Edited July 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Branderplank]

Thanks for the weiqi tip-off. Seems like something to read into.

 

And for the Dragon Gate book. Will take me some time to cover all the Thoma Cleary translations.

[Sloppy Zhang]

The Dragon and Tiger Medical Qigong is most directly for getting you to feel qi, and specifically to work with the wei qi... In case you were curious

 

I don't know of any non-Frantzis material that presents the energy bodies as Frantzis presents, so if that's what you were asking, then I don't have any non-Frantzis resources for you.

 

That said, pretty much all of Frantzis' material talks about the energy bodies, and how to work with them.

[Ya Mu]

I know that some of the books of BK Frantzis deal with the Taoist view on energy bodies. Are these books any good in dealing with this subject?

 

What other materials or classics out there deal with the same subject?

 

The thing is, one can read about energy body or energy bodies but the words are absolutely meaningless without actually doing the corresponding practice. I can assure you that the experience itself will differ from the words of any author, including me.

If you do go with Kumar's books DO THE PRACTICE; don't just read.

 

The book A Light Warrior's Guide to High Level Energy Healing speaks about a Taoist system that is inherently all about the energy body(s). It doesn't go into detail about this (due to above sentence) but does list a Taoist self-massage method that is geared toward stimulating & clearing the immediate chi protective field around the body, which chidragon linked to the immune system. It also lists a method of internal alchemy for raising the vibrational frequency of the total energy body. The neigong movements sets of Gift of the Tao (I, II, and soon to be III) are specifically geared at energy body development.These are available on DVD.

[zerostao]

"What other materials or classics out there deal with the same subject?"

 

http://dragongatesanctuary.com/

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/longmenpai

[zerostao]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Root-Chinese-Qigong-Enlightenment/dp/1886969507

 

a good place to begin and the following book is amazing

 

http://www.amazon.com/Qigong-Empowerment-Medical-Buddhist-Cultivation/dp/1889659029

[寒月 Hanyue]

I know that some of the books of BK Frantzis deal with the Taoist view on energy bodies. Are these books any good in dealing with this subject?

 

What other materials or classics out there deal with the same subject?

 

• Relax into your being
• Dao of letting go

These two are probably the ones that cover the 8 bodies theories of Bruce most. Both are by Frantzis himself. His student Frank Allen* wrote of the 8 bodies in relation to bagua in his book;

• Whirling circles of bagua

The only other teacher/author that refers specifically to the Daoist eight energy bodies is Dr Serge Augier. I cannot say it is the same as Frantzis' model, but it appears to be very similar. It is mentioned in passing during a lesson to his student Alex Kozma in one of Alex's out of print books. It does not go into the subject in detail. Here is a quote;

 

"Each of the eight trigrams represents in symbolic form one of the eight ‘bodies’ that make up the totality of our being."

 

The closest but indirect model for the energy-body to Frantzis' that I have seen elsewhere is probably Barbara Brennan's. There are differences, but they both map 8 bodies from the physcial all the way up.

 

When I studied with one of Bruce's longest standing students, they were very honest about this subject. The way they taught it was simply that there is the spectrum of the totality of ourselves. Bruce's tradition splits that into 8, while other traditions split it into 5, or 3, or 9 and so on. They explained that no model was perfect, and that they are just that. A way to more easily understand a whole that is too complex to look at otherwise.

 

It doesn't matter which model you use, the model is there to serve the practices of a tradition that lead to direct experience of yourself.

 

Don't confuse the finger for the moon?

 

The only way to know any of the layers of your being is through direct experience.

 

Hope this helps,

 

* Please note that last I saw Allen was denoucing Bruce's system. Poltics always rears its head.

Edited July 23, 2013 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

I will further add,

 

The use of the term weiqi by JA Johnson in reference to the layers of the energy fields is something that has always intrigued me. Does anyone know of anyone else who does this?

 

So I want to clarify something. Sloppy Zhang said "The Dragon and Tiger Medical Qigong is most directly for getting you to feel qi, and specifically to work with the wei qi" and this is completely true and correct.

 

However I do want to clarify that this reference to wei qi is NOT talking about the fields around the body that JA Johnson calls 'wei qi fields'. This comes from personal conversation that I've had with probably the most knowledgable person regarding D&T qigong other than Bruce, his senior student Bill Ryan.

 

Bill was teaching us how to engage with our weiqi and how to clear crap out of it. Because I wanted to be clear and not confuse terms I asked him and he said he has never heard of Bruce referring to the energy field/body as wei qi. When they talk of connecting to the weiqi layer within D&T they are using the term more inline with Chinese medicine, it is the layer under the skin and is related to the superficial fascia. This theory does include an emanantion to just outside the skin, but it is not the fields/bubble of energy around the whole body.

 

This layer is worked in D&T ( and in other neigong like Heaven & Earth) when the palms project to and connect into the layer and then traces along the body drawing out the blockages and smoothing out the qi. There is a very specific and tangible feeling when you connect into this layer, and it can lead to some very funky stuff.

 

D&T does of course also work with the external field, but it does not call it the wei qi. So any reference to wei qi from D&T is not referring to the external energy field. The external fields in Bruces system are the 8 energy bodies that extend larger and larger.

 

Of course, the terms and what you choose to call these things does not matter. However, since the question was about a specific school, I wanted to clarify how they use the terms and just what they are in fact referring to with those terms.

 

Best,

[Branderplank]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

I'm happy with my Spring Forest Qigong practice. So I'm not really interested in views on how to feel qi, but more an intellectual, metaphysical treatise of classical views on these bodies, and how they tie into experience.

 

But I do have some good reading to do from the suggestions here.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

I'm happy with my Spring Forest Qigong practice. So I'm not really interested in views on how to feel qi, but more an intellectual, metaphysical treatise of classical views on these bodies, and how they tie into experience.

 

But I do have some good reading to do from the suggestions here.

 

In that case you might be interested in;

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Body-Light-John-Mann/dp/0804819920/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1374783079&sr=8-2&keywords=body+of+light

 

It has its flaws, but still...

[doc benway]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

I'm happy with my Spring Forest Qigong practice. So I'm not really interested in views on how to feel qi, but more an intellectual, metaphysical treatise of classical views on these bodies, and how they tie into experience.

 

But I do have some good reading to do from the suggestions here.

 

Forgive me if I am stating the obvious here and I apologize if I sound preachy, but I'd like to offer a word of caution.

This is something my teacher taught me for years (and I didn't really follow his recommendation on this as much as he would have liked), and over time I learned the lesson for myself.

 

Don't get yourself too concerned with the 'intellectual, metaphysical' aspects of Daoist cultivation.

It is generally much more of a distortion and distraction than a help - plenty of folks will disagree, and that's fine.

As my teacher likes to say, anyone writing books and studying theory can't possibly put enough time into real practice to become a master. Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, maybe not.

 

If you are interested in cultivation, practice.

When you feel like learning more about the practice, ..... practice!

Books and metaphysics will fill your mind with images and concepts that will get in between your unique perspective and awareness and the nature of the reality your are looking to connect with.

Experiential methods are the treasure of Asian spirituality.

I'd highly recommend getting a very firm foundation in practice so that you have direct understanding, then read what words other folks tack on top of the reality.

 

Anyway, that's just my bias and I acknowledge that some will strongly disagree.

And I'm sorry if I offend anyone with this opinion.

[Branderplank]

Forgive me if I am stating the obvious here and I apologize if I sound preachy, but I'd like to offer a word of caution.

This is something my teacher taught me for years (and I didn't really follow his recommendation on this as much as he would have liked), and over time I learned the lesson for myself.

 

Don't get yourself too concerned with the 'intellectual, metaphysical' aspects of Daoist cultivation.

It is generally much more of a distortion and distraction than a help - plenty of folks will disagree, and that's fine.

As my teacher likes to say, anyone writing books and studying theory can't possibly put enough time into real practice to become a master. Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, maybe not.

 

Please be preachy! We are all into "spirit" here aren't we

 

I think its just human to want to theorize our experiences. Makes life a bit more interesting. The trick is to both immerse, and be able to stand back from theory. That is the dual nature of experience. I'm practicing my qigong as is, and developing my experience purely from experience (and of course some common sense I've read about. But all with a methodical approach).

 

I find it interesting how people have tried to justify their experiences in terms of theory. Merely from a historical and cultural perspective. Especially those who initially developed these practices. Whether those views are erroneous or not. I think a highly evolved human being would be able to understand (or rather accept?) the things, events, opinions and ideas of this world. And then just carry on with the practice as if nothing ever changed?

[kevin_wallbridge]

I have to say I really like where are coming from Steve and I completely agree with you. If your understanding is not grounded in actual practice you will always be in the "maybe/maybe not" world of uncertainty.

 

My Qigong teachers in China talked with me one time about a perspective on the 三寶 San Bao or three treasures. They explained that there were several, perhaps uncountable, lists of things that were San Bao. They said the San Bao of philosophy are Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism. The San Bao of existence are 地人天 Earth, man and Heaven. They then explained that the San Bao of the self were 精氣神 Jing Qi Shen/essence qi and spirit. They drew a diagram with each of the first of the lists at the bottom rising through the others to the top, like this:

 

佛 天 神

孔 人 氣

道 地 精

 

They said Daoism relates most to the Earth and its practices are the most focussed on essence. Confucianism is focussed on the world of men and their relationships and so is the most focussed on the cultivation of the Qi between things. Finally Buddhism looks to Heaven and so is most concerned with cultivation of the spirit. They explained that each practice has its place and purpose. They are like the roots trunk and leaves of a tree, none is better or more useful than the other.

 

That being said they then smiled and explained to me, "Still it is the study of Dao in the natural world which is the basis of all of our practice (not everyone's practice, the practice that they were teaching me at that time), so first you must cultivate the Jing and never leave it behind for pursuits of the mind. Always carry it forward to provide an earthly grounding upon which your practice stands."

 

I received this lesson at Clear Sound Pavilion 情音閣 on 峨眉山 Emei Mountain in 1991. I'm not saying its any kind of standard or truth in Daoist practices, it is simply a lesson I was taught over a cup of tea.

 

As for the topic of Weiqi 衛氣 and energy bodies... I could go on quite a bit about Weiqi but I it won't be any more on topic than my above digression. Perhaps it needs another thread?

[ChiDragon]

佛 天 神

孔 人 氣

道 地 精

Yes, it was some philosophical thinking of the three religions. 道, 孔, 佛 were integrated to be coexisted in harmony. I believe it happened during the Tang Dynasty, when the three religions were having a great conflict among themselves, the ruler issued a decree for the three religions to exchange and share their religious ideas to avoid further conflicts. Thus that is where we are right now because of the decree. Perhaps it falls closest to the Taoist philosophy in harmony with Nature about 天人地 and 精氣神.

Edited July 27, 2013 by ChiDragon

[BaguaKicksAss]

I have to say I really like where are coming from Steve and I completely agree with you. If your understanding is not grounded in actual practice you will always be in the "maybe/maybe not" world of uncertainty.

 

My Qigong teachers in China talked with me one time about a perspective on the 三寶 San Bao or three treasures. They explained that there were several, perhaps uncountable, lists of things that were San Bao. They said the San Bao of philosophy are Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism. The San Bao of existence are 地人天 Earth, man and Heaven. They then explained that the San Bao of the self were 精氣神 Jing Qi Shen/essence qi and spirit. They drew a diagram with each of the first of the lists at the bottom rising through the others to the top, like this:

 

佛 天 神

孔 人 氣

道 地 精

 

They said Daoism relates most to the Earth and its practices are the most focussed on essence. Confucianism is focussed on the world of men and their relationships and so is the most focussed on the cultivation of the Qi between things. Finally Buddhism looks to Heaven and so is most concerned with cultivation of the spirit. They explained that each practice has its place and purpose. They are like the roots trunk and leaves of a tree, none is better or more useful than the other.

 

That being said they then smiled and explained to me, "Still it is the study of Dao in the natural world which is the basis of all of our practice (not everyone's practice, the practice that they were teaching me at that time), so first you must cultivate the Jing and never leave it behind for pursuits of the mind. Always carry it forward to provide an earthly grounding upon which your practice stands."

 

I received this lesson at Clear Sound Pavilion 情音閣 on 峨眉山 Emei Mountain in 1991. I'm not saying its any kind of standard or truth in Daoist practices, it is simply a lesson I was taught over a cup of tea.

 

As for the topic of Weiqi 衛氣 and energy bodies... I could go on quite a bit about Weiqi but I it won't be any more on topic than my above digression. Perhaps it needs another thread?

 

Now that I would be interested in reading, another thread would be awesome in that it would likely lead to much discussion .

[三江源]

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Edited March 12, 2015 by 三江源

[baiqi]

http://www.northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/2007/10/19/the-whirling-circles-of-ba-gua-zhang-last-chapter.html

 

This blog article seems to be relevant with that topic.