Are Sangha's Healthy?

[Vmarco]

 

There are likely many ideas about sangha. In some Buddhism traditions Id say that sangha is synonymous with the term admirable friends. In discussing the Three Jewels,...Buddha, Dharma, Sangha; Shakyamuni Buddha (Upaddha Sutta) said that admirable friendship is the whole of spiritual life.

 

Most Buddhist commentators since Shakyamuni have suggested to be careful of the company we keep. Mahayanists say, "recognizing the simple fact that an unexamined lifestyle, in which we are immersed in the materialistic values and behavior of worldly friends, will get us nowhere."

 

Buddha purportedly commented that (Sambodhi Sutta), "If wanderers who are members of other sects should ask you, 'What are the prerequisites for the development of the wings to self-awakening?' you should answer, that admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, is the first prerequisite for the development of the wings to self-awakening."

 

Justin Whitaker wrote, "Let friendship be a central part of your practice. Meditate on the relationships in your life to see how they bring you toward or away from awareness, toward or away from skillful and unskillful mental states and activities. As you become more aware of the friendships in your life that are indeed admirable, these relationships will naturally grow and deepen, while ordinary friendships will either fall away the Buddha is also quite clear that solitude is far preferable to being in the company of those disinterested in cultivating positive qualities or these friendships will begin to change for the better.

 

Here's a crux however,...having one or more admirable friends becomes more and more fleeting for those involved with uncovering truth realization. In a way, association with a sangha not committed to the admirable pursuit of impeccable inquiry, has little to do with the Spiritual Life as Sakyamuni espoused, but supports a life of mediocity. Sanghas, for the most part, have become places of a status quo, where maintaining the groupthink is more important than honest transformation.

 

Admirable friends, from the point of view left by Sakyamuni, puts the dharma before human-centric or 6 sense viewpoints, thus making available a fertile ground for cultivating Heart-mind.

[konchog uma]

some are, some aren't. Usually vajrayana attracts egomaniacs or prospective egomaniacs (who become egomaniacal thinking that they are practicing "the most advanced techniques")... Some sanghas are healthy but all sanghas are just groups of humans, who tend to be fundamentally deluded by the poisons.

 

its hard to find a healthy sangha

[Vmarco]

some are, some aren't. Usually vajrayana attracts egomaniacs or prospective egomaniacs (who become egomaniacal thinking that they are practicing "the most advanced techniques")... Some sanghas are healthy but all sanghas are just groups of humans, who tend to be fundamentally deluded by the poisons.

 

its hard to find a healthy sangha

Authentically, a vajrayana sangha should be the last place to find egomaniacs. Surely, someone who did the work to be on the Short Path, would have surrendered ego long ago. But yes,...many hear of the Short Path, and attempt to jump aboard before doing the work,...the work of letting go of beliefs.

 

Personally speaking, I've observed that Admirable Friends are actually shunned from sangha's. An Adirmable Friend in the Buddhist/Doaist tradition would be considered an assassin by others,...an assassin who is a threat to their ego.

 

So, IMO, a healthy sangha would be a gathering of impersonal assassins.

[konchog uma]

i think that westerners lack the discipline to really ground themselves in the lower yanas, they want the tantra and the deity empowerments and the inner yogas and so on more than they want to walk the eightfold path or cultivate the paramitas.

 

also, most people in vajrayana sanghas are (in my experience anyway) just doing the open practices, they aren't necessarily tantrikas and haven't taken vajrayana vows. They just read books on dzogchen and mahamudra and like to think that they are practicing very advanced stuff.

 

lastly, anyone can cut down someone's ego. An angry idiot can insult someone and make them feel smaller than they did before, and then justify the toxicity of that situation with something like: "oh its good for them". But the skillful means of a genuine dharma practitioner usually go beyond just threatening the egos of their so called friends, and often involve kind and gentle words and the modeling of a good role for others to see. How does this person deal with ego? How do they deal with conflict and interpersonal issues?

 

I see a lot of ego in the people who try to cut down others ego, like they don't like what they see in the mirror so they are trying to break it. Someone who has really conquered ego can accomplish the same goal with humor, with kindness, sometimes with silence, and in all sorts of ways. Those sorts of people are the ones that i admire.

[Vmarco]

i think that westerners lack the discipline to really ground themselves in the lower yanas, they want the tantra and the deity empowerments and the inner yogas and so on more than they want to walk the eightfold path or cultivate the paramitas.

 

also, most people in vajrayana sanghas are (in my experience anyway) just doing the open practices, they aren't necessarily tantrikas and haven't taken vajrayana vows. They just read books on dzogchen and mahamudra and like to think that they are practicing very advanced stuff.

 

lastly, anyone can cut down someone's ego. An angry idiot can insult someone and make them feel smaller than they did before, and then justify the toxicity of that situation with something like: "oh its good for them". But the skillful means of a genuine dharma practitioner usually go beyond just threatening the egos of their so called friends, and often involve kind and gentle words and the modeling of a good role for others to see. How does this person deal with ego? How do they deal with conflict and interpersonal issues?

 

I see a lot of ego in the people who try to cut down others ego, like they don't like what they see in the mirror so they are trying to break it. Someone who has really conquered ego can accomplish the same goal with humor, with kindness, sometimes with silence, and in all sorts of ways. Those sorts of people are the ones that i admire.

 

I agree. As I recently mentioned somewhere,...Milarepa suggested that (talking of Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana) Buddhahood is not attainable if any of the three is lacking.

 

I disagree that "cutting down ego" as you said can be accomplished with humor. People do not want to see that what they considered meaningful, is actually meaningless,...and humor is not going to achieve that. For example,...Why do Christians go to Church? Remember, it's a joke. Christians go to Church because they have faith. It's hilarious,....first time I heard I cheeks hurt from the laughter.

 

A very good example of how "ego is cut down" can be found in the story of Tilopa's Shoe (the enlightenment of Naropa)

 

This is part of my copyrighted version:

 

The biography of Naropa is both an amusing and illuminating description of the tests devised by a master of the Short Path to train and direct an initiate. Naropa, born around 1010, c.e., was considered a man of refinement, a learned doctor and deeply convinced of his superiority as a member of the Brahmin caste. Having been greatly offended by a rajah to whom he was chaplain, he resolved to kill the prince by an occult process. For this purpose, he shut himself up in an isolated house and began a magic rite to bring about death; the dragpoi dubhab.

 

As he was performing the rite, a Dakini faery appeared at a corner of the magic diagram and asked Naropa if he deemed himself capable of sending the spirit of the rajah towards a happy place in another world, or of bring it back into the body which it had left and resuscitating it. The magician could only confess that his science did not extend so far. Then the faery assumed a stern presence and reproached him for his nefarious undertaking. She told him that no one had the right to destroy who could not build up again the being destroyed or establish it in a better condition. The consequence of his criminal thought, she added, would be his own rebirth in one of the purgatories.

 

Terror-stricken, Naropa inquired how he could escape that terrible fate. The Dakini advised him to seek the Sage named Tilopa and beg from him initiation into the mystic doctrine of the Short Path which frees a man from the consequences of his actions, whatever they may be, by the revelation of their true nature, and ensures enlightenment in one single life. If he succeeded in grasping the meaning of that teaching and realize it, he would not be reborn again and consequently would escape a life of torment in the purgatories.

 

Naropa stopped the performance of the rite and hastened towards Bengal where Tilopa lived. However, before Naropa would meet the Sage and receive the Ultimate Teaching, that is, Tilopa's Mahamudra, through which Enlightenment could be realized in one lifetime, he would first undergo twelve astonishments, followed by twelve ordeals. The Twelve Astonishments were challenges to Naropa's conditioning, that is, his ego and beliefs; whereas the Twelve Ordeals, or Hardships, were intended to encourage complete surrender.

 

The first meeting of Naropa with Tilopa occurred in the courtyard of a Buddhist monastery. The cynic Sage, nearly naked, was seated on the ground eating fish. As the meal went on, he put down the fish's backbones beside him. However, in order not to defile his cast purity, Naropa was on the point of passing by at some little distance from the eater, when a monk started to reproach Tilopa for parading his lack of compassion for the animals, that is, killing and eating the fish, in the very premises of a Buddhist Monastery; and ordered him to leave at once.

 

Tilopa did not even condescend to answer. He muttered some words, snapped his fingers and the fish bones were again covered with flesh. The fishes then moved as if living and swam away through the air as if it was water. No vestige remained of the cruel meal on the ground. Naropa was dazed, but suddenly thought that this strange wonder worker, no doubt, was the very Tilopa whom he was seeking. He hurriedly inquired about him, and the information given by the monks agreed with his own intuition. He ran after the Sage, but Tilopa was nowhere to be found. Then in his eagerness to learn the doctrine that could save him from the purgatories, Naropa wanders from town to town with the only result being that each time he reaches a place where Tilopa is said to be staying, the latter has, invariably just left it a little before his arrival.

 

In the coming months, as if by chance on his way, Naropa would meet singular beings who were phantoms created by Tilopa. Once, knocking at the door of a house to beg food, a man comes out who offers him wine. To offer wine or spirit to a high caste Brahmin is an insult, so Naropa feels deeply offended and indignantly refuses the impure beverage. The house and its master vanish immediately. The proud Brahmin is left alone on the solitary road, while a mocking voice laughs that man was I, Tilopa.

 

Again, the traveler sees a brutal husband who drags his wife buy her hair, and when he interferes, the cruel fellow tells him, you had better help me, I want to kill her. At least pass your way and let me do it. Naropa can hear no more. He knocks the man down on the ground, sets free the woman, and, lo!, once more the pantasmagoria disappears while the same voice repeats scornfully, I was there, I, Tilopa. The adventures continue in the same vein. Proficient magician though he may be, Naropa has never even conceived the idea of such display of supernormal powers. He stands on the brink of madness, the beliefs he clung to for his identity shaken to their core, but his fortitude to become Tilopa's disciple grew still stronger. He roamed at random across the country, calling Tilopa aloud and, knowing by experience that the Sage is capable of assuming any form, he bows down at the feet of any passer-by and even before any animal he happens to see on the road.

 

One evening, after a long walk, he reaches a cemetary. A fire is smouldering in a corner; at times, a dark, reddish flame leaps from it showing shriveled- up, carbonized remains. The glimmer allows Naropa to vaguely discern a man laying beside the fire. He looks at him, and a mocking laugh answers his inspection. He falls prostrate on the ground at Tilopa's feet. This time the Sage does not disappear. The obscurations which inhibited Naropa from recognizing the Sage had waned.

 

During the next several years, Naropa followed Tilopa without being treated as of any import, athough the Sage engages him in twelve ordeals, as mentioned above. Each Ordeal or Hardship, according to later Mahasiddhas of the lineage, contained one of twelve instructions of the Fourth Empowerment. As the first three empowerments encouraged the blossoming of the sapiential mind, the Fourth liberated the sapiential mind. However, only a few of the ordeals will be given here to grasp the principle of Naropa's release from his belief barriers and surrender to the Sage, whereby he fully understood the acquenscence of who he thought he was, and realized who he actually was.

 

One of Naropa's first hardships arose following a begging round. According to the custom of Indian ascetics can beg for food, or alms, once a day. Coming back to his master, he offered him the rice and curry which he had received as alms. The rule is that a disciple eats only after his guru is satisfied, but far from leaving something for his follower, Tilopa ate up the whole contents of the bowl, and even declared that the food was so much to his taste that he could have eaten another bowl full with pleasure.

 

Without waiting for a more direct command, Naropa took the bowl and started again for the house where generous householders bestowed such tasty alms, even though he knew he could not beg again. When he arrived, he found the door closed. However, burning with zeal, the devoted disciple did not let himself be stopped for so little. He forced the door open, discovered some rice and various stews keeping warm on the stove in the kitchen and helped himself to more of what Tilopa had so much enjoyed. The masters of the house came back as he was plunging a spoon in their pots and gave him a harsh thrashing. Bruised from head to feet, Naropa returned to the Sage, who showed no compassion whatever for his suffering.

 

What adventure has befallen you on my account, he said with a cynical calm. Do you not regret having become my disciple? With all the strength that his pitiful condition left at his disposal, Naropa protested that far from regretting having followed such a Sage, he deemed the privilege of being his disciple could never be paid for too dearly, even if one was to purchase it at the cost of one's life. Another ordeal took place while Sage and disciple lived in a hut near a forest. Once, returning from the village with Tilopa's meal, Naropa saw that during his absence, the latter had fabricated a number of long bamboo needles, and with covered with molten butter, hardened them in a fire. Inquisitively he inquired about the use Tilopa meant to make of these implements.

 

The Sage responded with a queer smile. Could you, he asked, bear some pain if it pleased me? Naropa answered that he belonged entirely to him and that he would do whatever he liked with him. Well, replied Tilopa, stretch out your hand. And when Naropa had obeyed, he thrust one of the needles under each of the nails of one hand, did the same to the other, and finished with the toes. Then he pushed the tortured Naropa into the hut, commanded him to wait there till he returned, closed the door, and went away.

 

Several days elapsed before he came back. He found Naropa seated on the ground, the bamboo needles still in his flesh. What did you think while alone?, inquired Tilopa. Have you not come to 'believe' that I am a cruel master and that you had better leave me? I have been thinking of the dreadful life of torments which will be mine in the purgatories if I do not succeed, by your grace, in becoming enlightened in the mystic doctrine, and so escaping a new rebirth and having to begin all over, answered Naropa. As the years went by, Naropa drank fowl water, a defiling thing according to religious law; crossed a blazing fire, nearly drowned in icy water, and performed other fantastic feats which often put his life in jeopardy.

 

Once, Sage and disciple were strolling in the streets when they happened to meet a wedding procession accompanying a bride to her husband's house. I desire that woman, said Tilopa to Naropa. Go bring her to me. He had scarcely finished speaking before Naropa joined the cortege. Seeing that he was a Brahmin, the men of the wedding party allowed him to approach the bride, thinking that he meant to bless her. But when they saw that he took her in his arms and intended to carry her away, they seized on everything they could find and belabored poor Naropa so soundly that he fainted and was left for dead. Tilopa had not waited for the end of the performance to pass quietly on his way. When Naropa came to his senses again and had painfully dragged himself along until he overtook his whimsical guru, the latter, as welcome, asked him once more the usual question, Do you not regret?. And as usual, Naropa protested that a thousand deaths seemed to him but a trifle to purchase the privilege of being his disciple.

 

By some accounts, Naropa's last ordeal was said to have occurred at the end of a day walking in a remote mountainous region. Stopping at a cliff, Tilopa asked, what if it would please me for you to jump off this cliff? Before the final word was finished, Naropa leaps off the cliff, breaking nearly every bone in his body. Tilopa made his way down the steep, rocky cliff and asked Naropa who was clearly in agony, How are you?. Naropa answered that the pain was unbearable. Then, in a calm voice, Tilopa commanded him to heal himself. Instantaneously Naropa healed himself, and his broken body was fully restored.

 

That evening, while seated at a fire, quite unexpectedly Tilopa took off one of his shoes and soundly slapped Naropa on the head with it. In that instant Naropa saw the inverse flow of forward moving waves of Light, and would not again transgress into the sleep of samsara, the always changing and impermanent dream of Maya. The full meaning of the Short Path was then told to Naropa through Tilopa's twenty-eight verse Mahamudra, or Ultimate Teaching.

 

The story of Tilopa's Shoe is considered a historic occurrence. Several variations of the story exist, some handed down by oral tradition, others written in the biographies of famous lamas. Yet, unlike other philosophies, the historical legitimacy of Kagyu makes no difference, for the essence of the Short Path, the realization of the sapiential Mind in a single lifetime, is contained within the story.

 

 

.

[Vmarco]

I see a lot of ego in the people who try to cut down others ego, like they don't like what they see in the mirror so they are trying to break it. Someone who has really conquered ego can accomplish the same goal with humor, with kindness, sometimes with silence, and in all sorts of ways. Those sorts of people are the ones that i admire.

 

I'd suggest that Loving Kindness is quite different than egoic accepting humor.

[Apech]

In the vajrayana the Sangha is specifically the assembly of Bodhisattvas (Chenrezig and co.) and not the people who happen to attend a dharma centre. So for instance in the ngondro you address the Lama, Buddhas, dharma, sangha, yiddam and dharmapalas ... here you mean Bidhisattvas by sangha.

 

I have to admit, and this is in no way a criticism of other dharma practitioners that I find myself un-sympatico with collections of buddhists. I suppose people are at very mixed levels of development and with lots of different motives and as such hardly a shining example all the time ... with this you have to accept how political such organisations such as dharma communities become. For this reason I remain a lone practitioner even though I have a lama who is my teacher.

[RongzomFan]

For this reason I remain a lone practitioner even though I have a lama who is my teacher.

 

That's the best way.

[Jetsun]

Man is genetically programmed to be a social animal, people fear often with survival levels of dread that they might get ejected from their social group or tribe if they step out of line or behave outside of the collective reality of what is acceptable. If you practice a genuine spiritual practice then you are going to change, you might even go a bit crazy in the eyes of regular social norms, so if you have a Sangha that sort of change is likely to be accepted and understood, but if you don't you may come up against resistance which can become a drag or even activate genetically programmed survival instincts which will block your progress altogether.

[Songtsan]

some are, some aren't. Usually vajrayana attracts egomaniacs or prospective egomaniacs (who become egomaniacal thinking that they are practicing "the most advanced techniques")... Some sanghas are healthy but all sanghas are just groups of humans, who tend to be fundamentally deluded by the poisons.

 

its hard to find a healthy sangha

 

That's why I like Vajrayana! lol so many more crazy people like me to have fun with...To destroy the ego, become an egomaniac! Why does this work, because people will hate you like fierce fire, and they will rail against you and tear your ego to shreds. I don't have to destroy my own ego, others will do it for me.

[idiot_stimpy]

That's why I like Vajrayana! lol so many more crazy people like me to have fun with...To destroy the ego, become an egomaniac! Why does this work, because people will hate you like fierce fire, and they will rail against you and tear your ego to shreds. I don't have to destroy my own ego, others will do it for me.

 

 

You will have to learn the hard way.

[Songtsan]

You will have to learn the hard way.

 

That's the best way - quick and deadly, with much spiritual fire...I want to burn myself to cinders in a blaze of fierce heat that can't be beat. No time for slowness...lots of work to do, many karmas to burn/create. I've already went too far, can't stop now or else I might get depressed again. Riding the furious waves of extremism, I keep the motion going forward, so that I don't have to backtrack all the way and start at square one. Once begun - don't quit...keep on trucking. Truest friends will be found this way instead of so-so friends who aren't as sincere.

[idiot_stimpy]

What you're looking for is before square one.

 

That's the best way - quick and deadly, with much spiritual fire...I want to burn myself to cinders in a blaze of fierce heat that can't be beat. No time for slowness...lots of work to do, many karmas to burn/create. I've already went too far, can't stop now or else I might get depressed again. Riding the furious waves of extremism, I keep the motion going forward, so that I don't have to backtrack all the way and start at square one. Once begun - don't quit...keep on trucking. Truest friends will be found this way instead of so-so friends who aren't as sincere.

 

Only time will tell if its the quickest.

[Songtsan]

What you're looking for is before square one.

 

 

Only time will tell if its the quickest.

 

Yes. Crazy wisdom. It's the only option open to me now I am afraid. I am too unbalanced for ways that seek balance through balanced activities. Seriously. Tried it failed, multiple times. Years and years of failure, never finding a home anywhere. If I can find a home in crazy wisdom, then I am game. Even if people shun me, at least I will feel alive vs. dead inside.

[idiot_stimpy]

You are running away from that which you are.

 

Look deep into the deadness inside of you. Don't be scared, jump into it.

[Songtsan]

You are running away from that which you are.

 

Look deep into the deadness inside of you. Don't be scared, jump into it.

 

true, but been there done that for years while in prison recently ...taking a vacation for a while in insane forest land. Much more exciting...learn much quicker too as the demons are everywhere and they want a piece of me, and I must defend myself left and right so my ninja skills grow quick.

[C T]

true, but been there done that for years while in prison recently ...taking a vacation for a while in insane forest land. Much more exciting...learn much quicker too as the demons are everywhere and they want a piece of me, and I must defend myself left and right so my ninja skills grow quick.

Taking the spiritual warrior's path is most daunting. An admirable aim.

[Songtsan]

Taking the spiritual warrior's path is most daunting. An admirable aim.

 

It is mainly a fight against insincerity. Instead of seeking to mold myself into some ideal, I let the ideal mold me into it, by being eternally honest, even when it hurts. People tend to become uncomfortable with me and my level of honesty. Not that my honesty is the truth of course, it is just that I speak from that level of truth that I know at the time. I do my best not to step on toes when i can, but sometimes the truth at the time encourages it. Its a bittersweet road, but I think all roads are. I don't know one best path for all people, or even that there is one best path for me, but this one has been far more successful than all the other ones where I tried to fake it until I made it.

[Jeff]

Life is to be lived...

 

From the Dhammapada

 

(Section 6)

 

Do not look for bad company

Or live with men who do not care.

Find friends who love the truth.

Drink deeply.

 

(Section 23)

 

To have friends in need is sweet

And to share happiness.

And to have done something good

Before leaving this life is sweet,

And to let go of sorrow.

To be a mother is sweet,

And a father.

It is sweet to live arduously,

And to master yourself.

O how sweet it is to enjoy life,

Living in honesty and strength!

And wisdom is sweet,

And freedom.

 

(Section 25)

 

How sweet to be free!

It is the beginning of life,

Of mastery and patience,

Of good friends along the way,

Of a pure and active life.

So life in love.

Do your work.

Make an end of sorrow.

[RongzomFan]

i think that westerners lack the discipline to really ground themselves in the lower yanas, they want the tantra and the deity empowerments and the inner yogas and so on more than they want to walk the eightfold path or cultivate the paramitas.

 

Vajrayana is a totally independent vehicle (or a set of vehicles).

 

Why would you need to walk the eightfold path?

 

You don't need any background in sutra at all. You can enter Vajrayana directly.

 

People should be encouraged and applauded for seeking genuine Vajrayana.

 

The problem is the opposite than what you outline, that is people bringing lower vehicle understanding into higher vehicles.

 

Mahamudra, for example, is an independent system with unique terminology such as kun gzhi (alaya).

Edited July 16, 2013 by alwayson

[Songtsan]

What I am finding is that I don't really seek anything exactly like what all the major paths seek. I am not concerned with most perception attainments, siddhis, etc. Nirvana sounds nice, but strangely my motivation for it is weak. What I seek is simply to find out what it is I truly want, what is really important for me, which I have not yet identified yet. I know that I want to know how everything works, like a kid asking 'why is this?' 'why is that?' I have been asking 'what if?' questions forever - my whole life. I still do, and this tendency is strangely a big part of my path. It has morphed into trying out all kinds of ways, altering traditions, experimenting, conjecturing, etc. I always get told to pursue a normal path, but I am not attached to most attainments. I simply seek to know - not know what a perception attainment is like from the inside, but what it all means from a scientific level, or maybe even metaphysics (but not new age style).

 

One thing I have noticed is that my base belief around reincarnation/karma influences my goals. As I don't believe in individual karma, only group karma, I don't fear not completing some perfectionist goal in this lifetime, because I think that my energy joins with the cosmos and becomes part of everyone. I do want to leave some mark behind, in the way of service for humanity. I think I am looking for a goal that is so enticing, so all-consuming that it will drive me to it with a passion. I search for a goal is basically it. Something that I believe will make a difference one way or another.

 

I don't know that there is any specific Sangha for me. A Sangha for those who haven't found their goal yet?

[idiot_stimpy]

What I seek is simply to find out what it is I truly want, what is really important for me

 

 

You want to be happy/whole.

 

Yes or no?

[Songtsan]

You want to be happy/whole.

 

Yes or no?

 

I suppose - it'd be nice...but what i really want is something amazing to happen, something almost fantastical, reality changing - something not just about me and removing stress and all that fun stuff - but a thing which would reshape me forever in ways I have never heard/read about. Honestly I would like to find God or something maybe, but I don't think there is one outside of the combined collective energy that is oneness. Perhaps that is it, in a roundabout way. I don't know. Its confusing...I'll keep trucking.

 

I guess it is simply related to wanting ecstasy, because if I found that great revelation, I would become ecstatic. Perhaps I merely indirectly seek great bliss and removal from great suffering, and no matter what/where/etc. I do/go/etc. it is always at root based on this. Even desire for enlightenment is about escaping stress. Desire for a better rebirth. Why does everything have to be about that? Why can't there be a greater purpose than seeking bliss and avoiding stress? Doing great things for others maybe...but then, that is seeking to give them bliss, and in doing so complete an urge in oneself that is still pain/pleasure bound.

 

Do aliens on other planets have these same issues? They must.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Songtsan

[konchog uma]

Vajrayana is a totally independent vehicle (or a set of vehicles).

 

Why would you need to walk the eightfold path?

 

You don't need any background in sutra at all. You can enter Vajrayana directly.

 

People should be encouraged and applauded for seeking genuine Vajrayana.

 

The problem is the opposite than what you outline, that is people bringing lower vehicle understanding into higher vehicles.

 

Mahamudra, for example, is an independent system with unique terminology such as kun gzhi (alaya).

 

interesting. i guess it depends on who teaches it. my lama doesn't teach it as completely independent, but emphasizes the virtues and views of the lower yanas too. and that sangha is full of egomaniacal assholes, so its obviously no failsafe. appreciate your pov tho.

[Apech]

interesting. i guess it depends on who teaches it. my lama doesn't teach it as completely independent, but emphasizes the virtues and views of the lower yanas too. and that sangha is full of egomaniacal assholes, so its obviously no failsafe. appreciate your pov tho.

 

Yes my lama also (and great teachers in the past like Gampopa) see the vehicles as being complementary views which build on each other. The views of the vajrayana and ati-yoga and so on are 'superior' in the sense of more highly developed ... but this does not negate the Mahayana view for instance but clarifies it.

 

The sangha in which one takes refuge is not the collection of people who turn up to the dharma centre but the assembly of bodhisattvas. It doesn't matter that other practitioners are confused and egotistical ... its irrelevant. the original sanghas as communities of monks were set up to give seekers a life style removed from the obligations of a householder ... that's all really ... a way of life that gave you time to study and meditate. Life was harder in those days and the obligations of people engaged in society were onerous such as would leave you no time for dharma.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Apech