Are Sangha's Healthy?

[konchog uma]

It doesn't matter that other practitioners are confused and egotistical ... its irrelevant.

 

it doesn't matter to me either, i don't go there to socialize, or to look for non-egotistical people, i go there to receive dharma teachings and be in the presence of my lama.

[Jetsun]

Vajrayana is a totally independent vehicle (or a set of vehicles).

 

Why would you need to walk the eightfold path?

 

You don't need any background in sutra at all. You can enter Vajrayana directly.

 

People should be encouraged and applauded for seeking genuine Vajrayana.

 

The problem is the opposite than what you outline, that is people bringing lower vehicle understanding into higher vehicles.

 

Mahamudra, for example, is an independent system with unique terminology such as kun gzhi (alaya).

 

The Dalai Lama disagrees, in the latest book I read of his he points out that just about all the major figures of Tibetan Buddhism taught the eightfold path before the higher practices and explains the logic behind it, even Longchenpa taught the eightfold path to students before Dzogchen.

[RongzomFan]

The Dalai Lama disagrees, in the latest book I read of his he points out that just about all the major figures of Tibetan Buddhism taught the eightfold path before the higher practices and explains the logic behind it,

 

Reference?

 

HHDL is a Gelugpa. The Gelugpa school holds weird views in general, stemming from Tsongkhapa. See even a basic Tibetan history book such as Sam Van Schaik's.

 

even Longchenpa taught the eightfold path to students before Dzogchen.

 

Reference?

Edited July 16, 2013 by alwayson

[C T]

Not all practitioners have the necessary merit to begin Dzogchen or Mahamudra before laying a well-founded ground in the prelims.

 

Even recognized tulkus in the various sects of Bon/Vajrayana have to go thru the grind of sutric and mantric practices.

 

I guess the current batch of West-based Tibetan teachers are not too concerned with keeping to this agenda, preferring to 'open' the doors wider, implying a greater scope for misunderstanding and even abuse, as evident in many Western 'sanghas' nowadays.

[RongzomFan]

The abuse is mixing sutra and tantra. Sakya Pandita makes fun of Gampopa for inventing something called "sutra Mahamudra".

[C T]

The abuse is mixing sutra and tantra. Sakya Pandita makes fun of Gampopa for inventing something called "sutra Mahamudra".

Its odd you mentioned that mixing sutra and tantra is abuse. Why do you think so?

 

(Making fun of someone is definitely abusive. )

[RongzomFan]

Its odd you mentioned that mixing sutra and tantra is abuse. Why do you think so?

 

Its odd that you think its odd. Why do you think so?

[Apech]

The abuse is mixing sutra and tantra. Sakya Pandita makes fun of Gampopa for inventing something called "sutra Mahamudra".

 

 

I think there are problems with what Gampopa attempted in fusing the teachings of the mahasiddhis and monastic buddhism. But I think the idea that one refutes the other is equally problematic. the buddhist tantras did not emerge from nowhere ... they are buddhist ... and as such are part of the whole vehicle of dharma surely.

[RongzomFan]

Even recognized tulkus in the various sects of Bon/Vajrayana have to go thru the grind of sutric and mantric practices.

 

They learn all of sutra and tantra, but they keep them distinct.

 

For example, note here that the Eight Karampa makes a distinction between the luminous mind in the tantras versus the sutras:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC&pg=PA61&dq=center+of+the+sunlit+sky+However,+the+luminous+wisdom+mind&hl=en#v=onepage&q=center%20of%20the%20sunlit%20sky%20However%2C%20the%20luminous%20wisdom%20mind&f=false

[Apech]

They learn all of sutra and tantra, but they keep them distinct.

 

For example, note here that the Eight Karampa makes a distinction between the luminous mind in the tantras versus the sutras:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC&pg=PA61&dq=center+of+the+sunlit+sky+However,+the+luminous+wisdom+mind&hl=en#v=onepage&q=center%20of%20the%20sunlit%20sky%20However%2C%20the%20luminous%20wisdom%20mind&f=false

 

 

yes it says tantric Buddhahood 'incorporates' sutric buddhahood ...(page 62) ... so one supercedes and yet incorporates the other ... so the sutric view is not wrong or incompatible but only lesser or incomplete somehow.

 

PS. is this book worth buying? I am thinking of getting it.

[Jetsun]

Reference?

 

HHDL is a Gelugpa. The Gelugpa school holds weird views in general, stemming from Tsongkhapa. See even a basic Tibetan history book such as Sam Van Schaik's.

 

 

Reference?

 

"For example, the Seven Treasures of the great Longchenpa explains the stages of the path. Similarly, other Tibetan Buddhist schools also explain the stages on the path. Practice of the great breakthrough of the Nyingma is posible only on the basis of the stages of the path"

 

from p140 The End of Suffering and the discovery of Happiness - HH Dalai Lama

[RongzomFan]

Same book states how Gelugpas are messed up:

 

"First, with a few exceptions, the majority of books or articles on Madhyamaka by Western - particularly North American - scholars is based on the explanations of the Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism. Deliberately or not, many of these Western presentations give the impression that the Gelugpa system is more or less equivalent to Tibetan Buddhism as such and that this school's way of presenting Madhyamaka is the standard or even the only way to explain this system, which has led to the still widely prevailing assumption that this is actually the case. From the perspective of Indian and Tibetan Buddhism in general, nothing could be more wrong. In fact, the peculiar Gelugpa version of Madhaymaka is a minority position in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, since its uncommon features are neither found in any Indian text nor accepted by any of the other Tibetan schools."

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC&pg=PA17&dq=center+of+the+sunlit+sky+In+fact,+the+peculiar+Gelugpa+version+of+Madhyamaka&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Eo_lUf7_IMXe4AP614C4Ag&ved=0CDoQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=center%20of%20the%20sunlit%20sky%20In%20fact%2C%20the%20peculiar%20Gelugpa%20version%20of%20Madhyamaka&f=false

[RongzomFan]

"For example, the Seven Treasures of the great Longchenpa explains the stages of the path. Similarly, other Tibetan Buddhist schools also explain the stages on the path. Practice of the great breakthrough of the Nyingma is posible only on the basis of the stages of the path"

 

from p140 The End of Suffering and the discovery of Happiness - HH Dalai Lama

 

Yes I can see this text on Amazon preview. Its referring mainly to a text by Tsongkhapa.

 

It has nothing to do with the eightfold path. Then he states that other schools have similar texts.

Edited July 16, 2013 by alwayson

[Apech]

Same book states how Gelugpas are messed up:

 

"First, with a few exceptions, the majority of books or articles on Madhyamaka by Western - particularly North American - scholars is based on the explanations of the Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism. Deliberately or not, many of these Western presentations give the impression that the Gelugpa system is more or less equivalent to Tibetan Buddhism as such and that this school's way of presenting Madhyamaka is the standard or even the only way to explain this system, which has led to the still widely prevailing assumption that this is actually the case. From the perspective of Indian and Tibetan Buddhism in general, nothing could be more wrong. In fact, the peculiar Gelugpa version of Madhaymaka is a minority position in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, since its uncommon features are neither found in any Indian text nor accepted by any of the other Tibetan schools."

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC&pg=PA17&dq=center+of+the+sunlit+sky+In+fact,+the+peculiar+Gelugpa+version+of+Madhyamaka&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Eo_lUf7_IMXe4AP614C4Ag&ved=0CDoQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=center%20of%20the%20sunlit%20sky%20In%20fact%2C%20the%20peculiar%20Gelugpa%20version%20of%20Madhyamaka&f=false

 

 

the more I read the more I want this book ... but its £54 on amazon.co.uk ....

[norbu]

One view on Sangha is that mixing with a group we get various feelings stirred up within. In a real Buddhist Sangha these things that get stirred up inside us are the things we need to work on within ourselves. Sangha can create frictions that stir up different feelings. If we handle those feelings we grow. If we run away from them we don't grow on that point.

Norbu

[Songtsan]

It is fairly obvious that TTB is a form of Sangha...one need not be physically present for all the things mentioned to have significance. I think in the world of the internet, the rules relax more, and true mind-selves come out more as well. So online Sanghas can in fact be more intense. I would never act the way I do in real life as I do online, not that I intend it that way. Its just that being freed of a face, and becoming just a brain tends to make one less thoughtful, as we disconnect ourselves slightly from the fact that these online presence are in fact people, and not just voices in the dark. The anonymity of the internet can bring out both the worst and the best in people. In many ways it is more real, and thus the Sangha can be more evolving.

[RongzomFan]

the more I read the more I want this book ... but its £54 on amazon.co.uk ....

 

What do you expect from a book which has over a thousand pages? Its more of a mini-encyclopedia.

[RongzomFan]

Then you have someone like Dudjom Rinpoche, the regent of Guru Rinpoche, who says:

 

"The eight lower levels have intellectually fabricated and contrived

that which is changeless solely due to fleeting thoughts that

never experience what truly is. They apply antidotes to and reject

that which is not to be rejected. They refer to as flawed that in

which there is nothing to be purified, with a mind that desires

purification. They have created division with respect to that

which cannot be obtained by their hopes and fears that it can be

obtained elsewhere. And they have obscured wisdom, which is

naturally present, by their efforts in respect to that which is free

from effort and free from needing to be accomplished. Therefore,

they have had no chance to make contact with genuine, ultimate

reality as it is (rnal ma’i de kho na nyid)." - Wisdom Nectar, p30-31

 

 

Dudjom Rinpoche even trashes the mind class and space class of atiyoga, by citing the Supreme Array of Ati (a ti bkod pa chen po):

 

"O Vajrapani!
If the Pith Instruction Class is not established,
There will be those who cling to deliberate examination [Mind
Class],
And in particular, those who will believe in nothing at all [Vast
Expanse Class].
Therefore, this definitive secret essence [Pith Instruction Class]—
Like a butter lamp amid darkness,
Like an elephant among oxen,
Like a lion among wild animals,
Or like a horseman among those on foot—
Is superior to them all." - Wisdom Nectar, p31

[konchog uma]

I agree that the first 8 vehicles are contrived, but i just recently started to study and practice dzogchen, so i have 15 years of conditioning to dissolve. I still think that until one achieves stability in their ati, practicing virtues and looking at one's life in terms of the eightfold path can be really helpful. I think that the eightfold path was intended to assist practitioners in achieving a state where non-conceptual meditation was possible.

[RongzomFan]

The eightfold path is not even Mahayana.

 

Eightfold path ends up with nirvana and arhatship, not Buddhahood.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Apech]

What do you expect from a book which has over a thousand pages? Its more of a mini-encyclopedia.

 

 

OK ... I didn't know it was that large ...

[RongzomFan]

I think that the eightfold path was intended to assist practitioners in achieving a state where non-conceptual meditation was possible.

 

I think I posted enough books.

 

For variety I will post an interesting thread which Loppon Namdrol indicates that all meditational states, jhanas, are conceptual.

 

Which is why Vajrayana does not use meditation.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4704

[RongzomFan]

According to Sam van Schaik's basic history book, Tibet: A History, Tsongkhapa and Gelugpas are weirdo radicals.

 

"......Tsongkhapa was coming to realize that he wanted to create something new, not necessarily a school, but at least a new formulation of the Buddhist Path."

 

"........with Tsongkhapa's own personal interpretation of the philosophy of the Madhyamaka."

 

"As Khedrup and later followers of Tsongkhapa hit back at accusations like these, they defined their own philosophical tradition, and this went a long way to drawing a line in the sand between the Gandenpas and the broader Sakya tradition."

Edited July 17, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

I can post countless books like this. This is why avoid Tsongkhapa and Gelugpa material.

[konchog uma]

Ontul Rinpoche teaches meditation as an integral part of dzogchen, specifically the mingling of meditation and post-meditation, so there is meditation. I am never sure what you are talking about when you say vajrayana doesn't employ meditation, as mahamudra and dzogchen both employ forms of zhine and lhakthong.

 

Even at my Tibetan temple, we sit in zhine every week. I don't doubt that you are repeating someone's official opinion which has been written in official form in books and maybe even tantras, but i think in the end it depends on who teaches one vajrayana and what they focus on.

 

As far as the 8fold path being part of hinayana and path of arhats, sure of course, but my point was that even at that level of teaching, Shakyamuni was practicing nonconceptual meditation and giving teachings which supported and led to this. Just because one utilizes the guidance of the 8fold path doesn't necessarily mean they will become a non-returner. The 8fold path is just a tool for guidance, and originally, the buddha taught right wisdom (nonconceptual) and right meditation as part of it (according to Ajahn Brahm) so its relevant, and has nothing to do with Brahm, i just learned that in the sutras its a tenfold path from him, so that he teaches jhanas has nothing to do with what im saying. I'm saying the 8fold path can serve as a support no matter which yana you practice.

 

I wish more vajrayanists had a foundation in the lower yanas, its absurd how arrogant and egotistical people can be if they haven't tempered those aspects of themselves. Not directed at anyone in particular, just my own experience w vajrayanists as opposed to practitioners of "lower" yanas

Edited July 17, 2013 by konchog uma