Are Sangha's Healthy?

[Simple_Jack]

I think I may have given the wrong impression. Buddhahood is buddhahood ...

 

Not according to how Vajrayana delineates this. Dzogchen, especially, goes as far to say that someone can only become a samyaksambuddha through its own methods.

[Apech]

Not according to how Vajrayana delineates this. Dzogchen, especially, goes as far to say that someone can only become a samyaksambuddha through its own methods.

 

Really? Well without disrespecting the dzogchen masters I find this hard to accept (unless they mean that a person achieves buddhahood must necessarily have realised rigpa (or whatever) ... which is not quite the same thing.

[RongzomFan]

Really? Well without disrespecting the dzogchen masters I find this hard to accept (unless they mean that a person achieves buddhahood must necessarily have realised rigpa (or whatever) ... which is not quite the same thing.

 

Yes really. SJ is right.

[Simple_Jack]

Really? Well without disrespecting the dzogchen masters I find this hard to accept (unless they mean that a person achieves buddhahood must necessarily have realised rigpa (or whatever) ... which is not quite the same thing.

 

Yes, really. Read Tulku Thondup's translations of Longchenpa's material in his The Practice Of Dzogchen, starting from the chapter titled "All the yanas and trainings are steps to Dzogpa Chenpo", pg. 91. Malcolm (aka. Lopon Namdrol) used to point this out all the time on the Dharmawheel forums.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

lol, we both said "yes really" with the same time stamp.

[Jetsun]

(unless they mean that a person achieves buddhahood must necessarily have realised rigpa (or whatever) ... which is not quite the same thing.

 

That is what I have always understood them to mean.

 

Dzogchen is said to be a teaching from the perspective of Buddhahood itself so it makes sense that Dzogchen and Buddhahood are synonymous, but that isn't the same thing as saying that it is only through the practice of Dzogchen you can get there. All the other vehicles try to point to the same thing in different ways but they try to do it from the human perspective, but with Dzogchen you try go straight there, straight to the Buddha perspective.

[Simple_Jack]

lol, we both said "yes really" with the same time stamp.

 

I'm reporting you to the mods.

 

[Apech]

Yes, really. Read Tulku Thondup's translations of Longchenpa's material in his The Practice Of Dzogchen, starting from the chapter titled "All the yanas and trainings are steps to Dzogpa Chenpo", pg. 91. Malcolm (aka. Lopon Namdrol) used to point this out all the time on the Dharmawheel forums.

 

 

I don't have this book and have no interest in Dzogchen (sorry) so I'll take your word for it.

[Simple_Jack]

I don't have this book and have no interest in Dzogchen (sorry) so I'll take your word for it.

 

Actually, I was off. For the most part it gives quotations from other masters within the lineage saying that it is the pinnacle of all paths and that all paths lead to Atiyoga. Pretty much, what Jetsun said above. However, this doesn't negate what was said in my earlier post.

[Apech]

Actually, I was off. For the most part it gives quotations from other masters within the lineage saying that it is the pinnacle of all paths and that all paths lead to Atiyoga. Pretty much, what Jetsun said above. However, this doesn't negate what was said in my earlier post.

 

 

Seems to be a different point to me.

[Simple_Jack]

Seems to be a different point to me.

 

Yes and no. This doesn't negate what I said in my earlier post, because Dzogchen doesn't stop at that point, where its view represents the culmination of all vehicles. It goes on to say that because it represents the culmination, the essence of all vehicles: an individual must train in its view and utilize its methods in order to truly reach the culmination of a Dzogchen buddhahood; that is superior to the buddhahood of lower yanas.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[Apech]

Yes and no. This doesn't negate what I said in my earlier post, because Dzogchen doesn't stop at that point, where its view represents the culmination of all vehicles. It goes on to say that because it represents the culmination, the essence of all vehicles: an individual must train in its view and utilize its methods in order to truly reach the culmination of a Dzogchen buddhahood; that is superior to the buddhahood of lower yanas.

 

 

What exactly is a Dzogchen Buddhood that is different to Buddhahood? Are you suggesting you could meet two Buddhas and one would be the Dzogchen Buddha superior to the other Buddha? that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

[RongzomFan]

What exactly is a Dzogchen Buddhood that is different to Buddhahood? Are you suggesting you could meet two Buddhas and one would be the Dzogchen Buddha superior to the other Buddha? that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

 

It has to do with the basis (gzhi). Explanations are on DW, by Namdrol.

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=reverting+to+the+basis+Buddhahood+site:www.dharmawheel.net&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&biw=1600&bih=754#rls=com.microsoft:en-US%3AIE-Address&sclient=psy-ab&q=site:www.dharmawheel.net+revert+to+the+basis+Buddhahood&oq=site:www.dharmawheel.net+revert+to+the+basis+Buddhahood&gs_l=serp.3...8570.8952.0.9715.3.3.0.0.0.0.128.253.2j1.3.0.eqrwrth...0...1.1.21.psy-ab.cQymVAEJ7Vc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=81d919ae13f344be&biw=1600&bih=754

 

By the way even in regular Vajrayana, Vajra Buddhahood is considered higher, 14th bhumi . That's pretty much common knowledge. Dzogchen Buddhahood is 16th bhumi.

Edited July 18, 2013 by alwayson

[Apech]

It has to do with the basis (gzhi). Explanations are on DW, by Namdrol.

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=reverting+to+the+basis+Buddhahood+site:www.dharmawheel.net&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&biw=1600&bih=754#rls=com.microsoft:en-US%3AIE-Address&sclient=psy-ab&q=site:www.dharmawheel.net+revert+to+the+basis+Buddhahood&oq=site:www.dharmawheel.net+revert+to+the+basis+Buddhahood&gs_l=serp.3...8570.8952.0.9715.3.3.0.0.0.0.128.253.2j1.3.0.eqrwrth...0...1.1.21.psy-ab.cQymVAEJ7Vc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=81d919ae13f344be&biw=1600&bih=754

 

By the way even in regular Vajrayana, Vajra Buddhahood is considered higher, 14th bhumi . That's pretty much common knowledge. Dzogchen Buddhahood is 16th bhumi.

 

 

Right ok I suppose this is the relevant quote:

 

"According to Dzogchen teachings, all sentient being attain Buddhahood by the end of the eon -- this is very clearly stated by Garab Dorje in the commentary above. But there are two kinds of Buddhahood, and as I said above, there is only Buddhahood that does not revert to the basis, and that is the Buddhahood attained through Dzogchen methods. The Buddhahood of other vehicles reverts to the basis, without the corresponding result.|"

 

So Buddhahood attained not through Dzogchen reverts to the basis. Does all other vehicles include Mahamudra then?

[RongzomFan]

Right ok I suppose this is the relevant quote:

 

Its 1 of many.

 

This stuff is slowly getting published by various translators.

Edited July 18, 2013 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

What exactly is a Dzogchen Buddhood that is different to Buddhahood? Are you suggesting you could meet two Buddhas and one would be the Dzogchen Buddha superior to the other Buddha? that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

 

All the rhetoric basically comes down to this:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=4042&start=100

 

"...Reverting to the basis" means that you have not eradicated all the most subtle traces in the elements of your physical body."

[Simple_Jack]

So Buddhahood attained not through Dzogchen reverts to the basis. Does all other vehicles include Mahamudra then?

 

I've read and heard it explained that the path is different, but the result [of Mahamudra & Dzogchen] is the same.

[Simple_Jack]

Have you given any thought as to how there could be a lesser buddhahood merely based on a difference of method?

 

Lets say that you already accept the claims of Buddhism including such a thing as buddhahood: going by the above we would have to conclude that Gautama or the other 6 (or 3 depending on which model you go by) buddhas who proceeded before him were not samyaksambuddhas; despite cultivating for 3 incalculable eons to be reborn in that lifetime with the 32 major and 80 minor marks [of a buddha] to reestablish the buddhadharma in the world.

 

 

Which doesn't apply if you look at this from the POV of Mahayana, where Shakyamuni was a nirmanakaya:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=4042&start=120

 

"These are nirmanakāyas of compassion -- they are emanations of dharmakāya. They will never revert."

 

Which is irrelevant because in Vajrayana:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=4042&start=140

 

"...Buddha was an emanation of Vajradhara, in turn, an emanation of Samantabhadra."

 

[Simple_Jack]

Well, if you take into account that its tantras expound non arising of dharmas, freedom from extremes, etc. and its methods revolve around realizing this: then, IMO, that is the start of the 8-fold noble path in terms of distinguishing right view. Let's not forget that the Tibetans were big into the study of Madhyamaka which further establishes that they sought right view in accord with the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha.

 

If a Vajrayana practitioner is on the path of seeing or the path of meditation: then they're applying the 4NT/8FNP to realize buddhahood.

 

...Which are irrelevant to Dzogchen and Mahamudra.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

I always saw Buddhism as one big sangha.

[C T]

Sanghas are really important. remember how Ananda left on his own and then almost broke one of his precepts because he had no one else there with him to prevent it. Sanghas are made to help support and teach one another. This is why churches come together. As for faith, Remember these two phrases:

Faith is the source of the Way

And the mother of merit and virtue

Because it nourishes all good dharmas.

Such is its great importance.

 

The Buddhadharma is like a great sea;

Only through faith can one enter it.

 

When a sutra is spoken, there are six fulfillment. The fulfillment of faith is one of them. So laugh about faith and those who say, "oh faith are for fools" is spoken from the mouth of a fool. I do not care what one says.

 

So churches have gathering so that they can help each other of their religion keep their precepts and keep their faith. The good thing about christianity is that their precepts are similar to Buddhist's precepts. I hear that precepts help make sure that a person is reincarnated as a human again.

Well said.

 

Do you see any difference between buddhist 'faith' and Xtian 'faith' in terms of how its generated and applied?

[RongzomFan]

Why should it be mandatory for someone to defer to Dudjom Rinpoche as an arbiter of Buddhism (especially if they aren't Vajrayana practitioners)?

 

They are free to ignore HH Dudjom Rinpoche, the supreme head of the Nyingma school. And ignore Nyingma yanas.

 

Every Tibetan presentation of Buddhist teachings is about distinction and segregation.

 

HH Dalai Lama, the head of the Gelugpa school, always clearly distinguishes between sutra and tantra:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=JKK_DKwYhk0C&pg=PA257&dq=TheGelug/Kagy%C3%BC+Tradition+of+Mahamudra+This+clearly+shows+the+widespread+acceptance+in+the+Gelug+tradition+of+a+difference+between+sutra+and+tantra+concerning+the+mind&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dGDpUYjYPJPB4AOWjoHwCw&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=TheGelug%2FKagy%C3%BC%20Tradition%20of%20Mahamudra%20This%20clearly%20shows%20the%20widespread%20acceptance%20in%20the%20Gelug%20tradition%20of%20a%20difference%20between%20sutra%20and%20tantra%20concerning%20the%20mind&f=false

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=RSRnKixEYdcC&pg=PA97&dq=Such+utilization+of+the+delusions,+as+an+integral+part+of+the+path+Another+unique+feature+of+tantra+concerns+the+process+of+attaining&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UmXpUbOFM_Oo4AOLmYGYCw&ved=0CDIQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Such%20utilization%20of%20the%20delusions%2C%20as%20an%20integral%20part%20of%20the%20path%20Another%20unique%20feature%20of%20tantra%20concerns%20the%20process%20of%20attaining&f=false

 

Even Bonpos segregate the various teachings. The book Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings is about this.

Edited July 19, 2013 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

They are free to ignore HH Dudjom Rinpoche, the supreme head of the Nyingma school. And ignore Nyingma yanas.

 

Every Tibetan presentation of Buddhist teachings is about distinction and segregation.

 

HH Dalai Lama, the head of the Gelugpa school, always clearly distinguishes between sutra and tantra:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=JKK_DKwYhk0C&pg=PA257&dq=TheGelug/Kagy%C3%BC+Tradition+of+Mahamudra+This+clearly+shows+the+widespread+acceptance+in+the+Gelug+tradition+of+a+difference+between+sutra+and+tantra+concerning+the+mind&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dGDpUYjYPJPB4AOWjoHwCw&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=TheGelug%2FKagy%C3%BC%20Tradition%20of%20Mahamudra%20This%20clearly%20shows%20the%20widespread%20acceptance%20in%20the%20Gelug%20tradition%20of%20a%20difference%20between%20sutra%20and%20tantra%20concerning%20the%20mind&f=false

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=RSRnKixEYdcC&pg=PA97&dq=Such+utilization+of+the+delusions,+as+an+integral+part+of+the+path+Another+unique+feature+of+tantra+concerns+the+process+of+attaining&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UmXpUbOFM_Oo4AOLmYGYCw&ved=0CDIQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Such%20utilization%20of%20the%20delusions%2C%20as%20an%20integral%20part%20of%20the%20path%20Another%20unique%20feature%20of%20tantra%20concerns%20the%20process%20of%20attaining&f=false

 

Even Bonpos segregate the various teachings. The book Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings is about this.

 

Yup, which is why the stages and paths of tantra are considered as distinct to the stages and paths of sutra according to Vajrayana.

 

Though, have you ever read a commentary from any of the sects where it explicitly states where/how the 4NT/8FNP apply to the tantric stages and paths? I'm not totally sure whether Patrul Rinpoche and whomever are referring just to the sutric model or if they are referring to both when they speak about the 4NT/8FNP and the path of seeing/meditation.

[Apech]

Yup, which is why the stages and paths of tantra are considered as distinct to the stages and paths of sutra according to Vajrayana.

 

Though, have you ever read a commentary from any of the sects where it explicitly states where/how the 4NT/8FNP apply to the tantric stages and paths? I'm not totally sure whether Patrul Rinpoche and whomever are referring just to the sutric model or if they are referring to both when they speak about the 4NT/8FNP and the path of seeing/meditation.

 

In what way would they not apply?

[C T]

Every stage of a filtration system is equally vital to the optimal function of said system. Though each phase is distinct, the grosser carbon filter, for example, cannot be said to be less functional or vital than the UV light. Its a symbiotic, often obligatory process, and the whole Buddhist path is rather similar, imo.