Time to reset the clock

[Songtsan]

Here are my thoughts on spirituality and religious institutions at this point. I believe that religions and spiritualities are draining us of our time and energy in many ways, energy which would be better spent in improving the environment, stopping the waste of forests, ending the nuclear missile tests, etc. etc. I believe that religions and spiritual-systems are selfish and are spreading negative ideas (in some aspects at least… I will discuss this more later)

Let's start with Buddhism:

All this energy we spend trying to improve ourselves is only wasted because we're going to come back here anyways, since energy/matter never dies-which means that Buddha was a false prophet. Yes, I am saying this… Seriously! Why did he want to leave the world? He wanted to leave the world because it was full of suffering. He saw suffering as the uncomfortable spice of life, meaning that life was suffering, life is suffering, to exist as a human being means you will suffer. Suffer suffer suffer! Basically he equated life with suffering, and so he basically was an escapist. An escape artist. He feared to suffer! He was a scaredy-cat. He ran away from this place. He said " I'm getting out of this crazy place! " He designed a system, which is great and produces great bliss, unification and increases understanding of what the self is (an aggregate illusion), etc. etc.-you know what he did, I don't have to tell you about that. Buddha equals Houdini. He was a mind master. I respect him fiercely. I think he was an asshole too! Basically what he did was teach everyone that life sucks, that living here is hell, that this is a crazy place, and we should escape it! Get out of this crazy wheel! Why would anyone want to be here!? etc. etc. This idea propagated itself in the minds of trillions of peoples over the years. Once this idea gets stuck in someone's head, and they think "Oh this guy is right on!" "I should escape too! He did it, and he told me how to do it… So I think I will follow his way." They do this because they are suffering- they get scared because their mind says to them "you will suffer more in the future every day of your life!" They fear that suffering and that fear drives them to seek a way out. So they start meditating so they can escape the wheel. They are a pawn of their own misery. Their misery controls them, becomes them (from underneath), and they incorporate this idea of suffering into their reality-view, telling themselves Buddha was right.

Let's look at the way things are: People are born, instantly become fascinated by reality as children (please think back to your earliest childhood memories at this point and remember what it was like so you can get a sense of that feeling of freedom and interest/curiosity/ecstasy/awesomeness). Then bad things start happening, they learn that the world isn't all fun and games and they start retreating from certain aspects of reality on a regular basis. They get bounced back and forth like a pinball between pleasure/pain dualities, and this develops their personality, their' I'ness.

What the Hinayana Buddhists do is this: They look at one part of the world, the 'suffering,' etc. etc. and they say "Since this stuff exists here, I don't want to be here." And so off they go to meditate in their monasteries seeking to escape this crazy wheel. They say, "Forget this place I'm outta here!" They can't take the heat.

What the Mahayana Buddhist do is this: They look at one part of the world, the 'suffering,' etc. etc. and they say "Since this stuff exists here, I don't want to be here; it hurts my soul to see others suffering, so I will stay here and help until everyone knows the way out." They can take the heat, but they don't like it, and they can't wait to get out of the frying pan.

I haven't yet fully comprehended the Vajrayana Buddhists way, so I will get back to you later on that.

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Where I think I'm going with this is that I think it's great to cultivate oneself and become a better person, but to be so scared of this place that you want to get out of here is a fear-based motivation. You fear suffering. You don't like it. I understand why you fear suffering, and I understand why you don't like it. However, I am not truly convinced that one can escape from the wheel in the first place, and I also question whether we should want to escape. Why not spend our lives improving this place instead? Instead of running around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to avoid the pain and seek the pleasure, and therefore polluting the environment in all the ways that we do, why not embrace both pain/pleasure and simply seek to make things the best that we can right here right now? To become whole within oneself, and seek to make the outer environment whole as well. It gives one plenty of stuff to do for certain.

I still think everyone should become enlightened, and become kung fu masters, and know how to move energy all around their body, etc. etc. I just don't think that people should be so afraid of this place that they want to jump onto the next plane and get the hell out of here.

[Apech]

I think you are a bit confused about Buddhism.

[Marblehead]

I think you are a bit confused about Buddhism.

Well, at least he's not the only one if he is.

[Chang]

I more and more tend towards the view that we should spend less time on the consideration of what others do or think and more time in following our own path.

[Apech]

Well, at least he's not the only one if he is.

 

 

That is true and also I would say that if you feel no connection with Buddhism then do something else. It is supposed to make you happier and to understand things better not get more confused.

[Jetsun]

My take on it is that the Buddha did all he could to get out of suffering and tried to change it and remove it, but all the methods failed so eventually he got exhausted so he sat down an accepted everything as it is and stopped trying to change anything or run away from anything and when he did that he gained enlightenment.

 

Many Buddhists and probably most of the people here are doing the same process, they do a load of techniques, have a load of meditation experiences and mess around with energy, but in the end they will get exhausted with trying to modify reality and give up, let go and accept and then wake up.

[skydog]

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Edited July 14, 2013 by skydog

[Apech]

My take on it is that the Buddha did all he could to get out of suffering and tried to change it and remove it, but all the methods failed so eventually he got exhausted so he sat down an accepted everything as it is and stopped trying to change anything or run away from anything and when he did that he gained enlightenment.

 

Many Buddhists and probably most of the people here are doing the same process, they do a load of techniques, have a load of meditation experiences and mess around with energy, but in the end they will get exhausted with trying to modify reality and give up, let go and accept and then wake up.

 

 

the translation dukkha = suffering is a bad one ... or perhaps only partly true.

[Jetsun]

 

 

the translation dukkha = suffering is a bad one ... or perhaps only partly true.

That is true but his motivation for trying to find enlightenment was through being exposed to the regular sufferings in this world like death and sickness and trying to find a way out of it.

 

When he gave up trying to find a way out of it he gained enlightenment, which is why many Buddhists talk about the "wisdom of no escape". When he started teaching he started talking about dukkha which is suffering caused by resisting change ie not fully accepting your life, trying to change reality, trying to get out of it. Life is dukkha when you live in the imagination of a separate self as you often have to resist the flow of life with your mind in order to maintain the illusion of seperateness.

[Jainarayan]

Well, at least he's not the only one if he is.

 

I don't know if it's a matter of confusion, as much as it is pointing out the wrong reasons for our beliefs. This is how I see it, and why:

 

Buddhism and Hinduism stress selfishness. So there, I said it. We're (me as a Hinduddhaoist, yes that's a word because I made it up, and it's a very good word! ) concerned about getting the hell out of here... you know, what can I do for myself. Oh sure I'll be nice to other sentient beings and I'll meditate on my navel and mentally over masturbate things (Vendanta is a favorite stimulus for jerk--- I mean over-thinking it ).

 

Invoking my low-end Asperger's I'll make a reference to a conversation from the Lord of the Rings between Frodo and Gandalf, which I think sums it up: Frodo is whining about he wished how the Ring never came to him; Gandalf says that everyone who sees such times wishes the same thing, but it's not for us to decide or question. There's nothing to do about it except make the best use of the time we have, come good or ill. So we are here, maybe we should focus more on helping others: charity, kindness, etc. and less on how we get the hell out of here and what comes next. That, if I understand the Tao, is a clear violation of what Taoism is: not fighting things and working with what we have. I may be wrong, but there it is.

[Apech]

I don't know if it's a matter of confusion, as much as it is pointing out the wrong reasons for our beliefs. This is how I see it, and why:

 

Buddhism and Hinduism stress selfishness. So there, I said it. We're (me as a Hinduddhaoist, yes that's a word because I made it up, and it's a very good word! ) concerned about getting the hell out of here... you know, what can I do for myself. Oh sure I'll be nice to other sentient beings and I'll meditate on my navel and mentally over masturbate things (Vendanta is a favorite stimulus for jerk--- I mean over-thinking it ).

 

Invoking my low-end Asperger's I'll make a reference to a conversation from the Lord of the Rings between Frodo and Gandalf, which I think sums it up: Frodo is whining about he wished how the Ring never came to him; Gandalf says that everyone who sees such times wishes the same thing, but it's not for us to decide or question. There's nothing to do about it except make the best use of the time we have, come good or ill. So we are here, maybe we should focus more on helping others: charity, kindness, etc. and less on how we get the hell out of here and what comes next. That, if I understand the Tao, is a clear violation of what Taoism is: not fighting things and working with what we have. I may be wrong, but there it is.

 

ah Elbereth Gilthoniel ... that's all I have to say at this point

[Jainarayan]

ah Elbereth Gilthoniel ... that's all I have to say at this point

 

 

[Songtsan]

I think you are a bit confused about Buddhism.

 

Buddhism is one of the paths I know the most about. I am hyper-focusing here to make a point. Please don't take everything I say as an absolutist statement. I respect Buddhism highly, and much of my philosophy comes from Buddhism. Many of my techniques come from Buddhism. Just because I drive a certain car, doesn't mean I have to like every aspect of that car. Maybe I want some rear spoilers? A sunroof? Tinted windows? You grok me?

 

 

I more and more tend towards the view that we should spend less time on the consideration of what others do or think and more time in following our own path.

 

I agree. Please see my post 'My great understanding' You will note that I have decided I spend way too much time here trying to share my understandings of my self with others. If I didn't want to change others so much (improve them in my view, as so many of us here do, including yourself, by the very statement you just made) I would not be coming here AT ALL, not even to ask questions, because there isn't a question I could ask that I couldn't simply go find the answer to myself - I know how to use the internet and the library. Please believe me that I completely agree with you, that I am simply addicted to the pleasure bliss that comes with being a 'teacher' (false mind fabrication that that is).

 

That is true and also I would say that if you feel no connection with Buddhism then do something else. It is supposed to make you happier and to understand things better not get more confused.

 

I hope I have answered this question already. Please do not take offense at my statements. I have great respect for what Buddhism has brought to us, I just don't like every aspect of it. I am no absolutist, although I make absolute statements here and there out of sheer laziness. If you re-read my OP carefully, you will see that I said I have a 'fierce' respect for Buddha. Please believe this.

[Songtsan]

All I was trying to say in the end was this: Do not fear suffering - do not run from suffering, do not let suffering control you, do not let suffering program you. Buddha did teach ways to transcend suffering, and he was not afraid to suffer, but he DID let suffering pattern his underlying world-view. His whole spiritual efforts in the beginning especially were about escaping from the self (before he became enlightened). After he was enlightened, he spoke often of how Nirvana was the key to release from the wheel of karma. He was an escapist underneath. Escape from this place that is. I am not - I don't seek to leave the wheel, I don't care if I come back. The thought of some blissful detached Nirvana that is apart from the rest of this illusion seems pointless to me, when there is all this family to come back to.

 

What is the first noble truth? Does this not paint a certain picture of what Buddhism is about? Why focus on the negative? This is all I am saying.

 

Please know that my real name is Songtsan - named after the first king of Tibet, Songtsan Gampo - a Tibetan Buddhist name! I am Buddhist, simply put, just not 100% Buddhist. People don't seem to get that I am not of any one teaching - and will never be! I will say this as many times as needed, until I realize that I shouldn't worry about what others think of me.

[Apech]

Buddhism is one of the paths I know the most about. I am hyper-focusing here to make a point. Please don't take everything I say as an absolutist statement. I respect Buddhism highly, and much of my philosophy comes from Buddhism. Many of my techniques come from Buddhism. Just because I drive a certain car, doesn't mean I have to like every aspect of that car. Maybe I want some rear spoilers? A sunroof? Tinted windows? You grok me?

 

 

 

I hope I have answered this question already. Please do not take offense at my statements. I have great respect for what Buddhism has brought to us, I just don't like every aspect of it. I am no absolutist, although I make absolute statements here and there out of sheer laziness. If you re-read my OP carefully, you will see that I said I have a 'fierce' respect for Buddha. Please believe this.

 

 

I'm not offended but you did call the Buddha an asshole. if you think this then you have no connection with Buddhism. I am not suggesting that we should be creepily servile or anything but basic respect is required I think. or if you don't feel it then just leave it alone and do something else.

[Apech]

All I was trying to say in the end was this: Do not fear suffering - do not run from suffering, do not let suffering control you, do not let suffering program you. Buddha did teach ways to transcend suffering, and he was not afraid to suffer, but he DID let suffering pattern his underlying world-view. His whole spiritual efforts in the beginning especially were about escaping from the self (before he became enlightened). After he was enlightened, he spoke often of how Nirvana was the key to release from the wheel of karma. He was an escapist underneath. Escape from this place that is. I am not - I don't seek to leave the wheel, I don't care if I come back. The thought of some blissful detached Nirvana that is apart from the rest of this illusion seems pointless to me, when there is all this family to come back to.

 

What is the first noble truth? Does this not paint a certain picture of what Buddhism is about? Why focus on the negative? This is all I am saying.

 

Please know that my real name is Songtsan - named after the first king of Tibet, Songtsan Gampo - a Tibetan Buddhist name! I am Buddhist, simply put, just not 100% Buddhist. People don't seem to get that I am not of any one teaching - and will never be! I will say this as many times as needed, until I realize that I shouldn't worry about what others think of me.

 

Buddha was not focussing on the negative he was pointing out the problem. Dukkha = unsatisfactory or similar ... in other words don't look for answers in samsara cos it doesn't have any. he was moved by compassion ... sadness I guess ... and through kindness to formulate what he at first thought was impossible to formulate to try to help people who were up to their eyeballs in ignorance and confusion.

[Songtsan]

I'm not offended but you did call the Buddha an asshole. if you think this then you have no connection with Buddhism. I am not suggesting that we should be creepily servile or anything but basic respect is required I think. or if you don't feel it then just leave it alone and do something else.

 

Its called hyperbole. Its kind of like that book, "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him!" One can both respect a person, and yet disrespect them (really you are disrespecting the thought construct of them and all that it represents) at the same time. I do not, and would never elevate someone else over me. I call the Kundalini an asshole all the time to her face! I think that every person that was ever born, no matter how enlightened they were, were in some way an asshole. I am a savage! Did you not realize it by now. I have no apologies for you. I call myself an asshole. I like being an asshole. I respect being an asshole as long as its not done out of pure negligent cruelty. If one is part asshole, and knows it, and has not yet transcended it, one should not fear being known. One should not hide ones skeletons in deep dark closets. I dont think Buddha was the most enlightened being to walk the earth.

 

Please know that Buddha is a very important part of my Ishta Devata - my divine ideal. Especially in the form of Avalokitesvara and some of the wrathful deities.

 

If I express something that I feel, please respect that I am being real.

[Songtsan]

Buddha was not focussing on the negative he was pointing out the problem. Dukkha = unsatisfactory or similar ... in other words don't look for answers in samsara cos it doesn't have any. he was moved by compassion ... sadness I guess ... and through kindness to formulate what he at first thought was impossible to formulate to try to help people who were up to their eyeballs in ignorance and confusion.

 

I have read so many sutras and I believe in all honesty that he was focusing on the negative - I believe he was hyper-polarized to a world view that focused more on suffering and less on the beauty that was inherent in imperfection. He was a perfectionist. Perfectionists seek to avoid imperfection. This is undeniable. Go read more sutras and come back and tell me he wasn't seeking to become a perfect being...he states himself that was seeking to become perfected. When we seek after perfection, it means we are seeking to be away from imperfection. It means we are hyper-polarizing ourselves to get away from all that we consider negative. Buddha was nearly a nihilist. My belief. He was anti-imperfection. That is so obvious I would state it is more than just my belief. He was also anti-world in many ways. This is so obvious that I think its more than my belief. Thus to my ideals - he was an asshole.

 

Don't agree with me - you shouldn't - you should agree with you!

 

Just don't be like some of these others on the board and judge the whole of who I am by one small part of me. That's all I need is another person going the way of perfectionism - which I am adamantly against.

[Songtsan]

I am going to state this one last time for everyone on this board. I dislike intolerance of whole people. I dislike perfectionist attitudes. I dislike absolutist attitudes that absolutely define someone as bad, simply because that person doing the defining doesn't like small parts of a person. If I think you are absolutely judging me in any way - as a whole, based on one small thing of me you don't like, and it occurs enough times for it to make me frustrated...I will not reply to the posts in which you make that assumption. Just learn not to judge people holistically. I am willing to be everyone's friend here, as long as you are willing to be mine - one the whole. I don't care if you dislike certain parts of me, as I am sure to dislike certain parts of you from time to time. I simply am getting frustrated at defending myself left and right for being who I am. Basically don't make it a personal attack on me. The very basis of 'personal attacks' is that they attack the whole person. That is why they are called 'personal' attacks. Please feel free to disagree with my opinions in a sane manner - when you make it a personal attack, I will start ignoring people around here. Yes, I understand that I will be being a hypocrite in doing this. I am just so busy with all my research and writing, that if I take hours every day to respond to personal attacks, it will be foolish of me. I must harden my heart to these things. Its a strategic defense of my time/energy, as half of what I post seems to attract personal attacks. I am not sorry for who I am. I understand why you guys get upset, truly I do. I cannot change Rome in one day. Please believe that I am aiming for greater evolution and enlightenment. Thats about all i can do for you at this time. Please remember that what you see of me here is just the tip of the iceburg of who I am. You cannot possibly know the real me. Judging me personally is naive. You are simply judging the thought construct of who you think I am.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Songtsan

[skydog]

mate, for what its worth, I kinda agree with you, but dont really want to offend anyone, as my intuition screams to not post in this thread aha....also if you write a thread like this, likely to trigger strong reactions, possibly encountering things you need to learn to ignore ish.

[Apech]

@songstan ... take it easy ... I don't agree with you ... that's it ... we don't have to agree .. no problem.

 

Good luck.

[Songtsan]

mate, for what its worth, I kinda agree with you, but dont really want to offend anyone, as my intuition screams to not post in this thread aha....also if you write a thread like this, likely to trigger strong reactions, possibly encountering things you need to learn to ignore ish.

 

...truth and not truth...but I will post in a different post 'My great realization' what I have just learned...it will be worth reading, I assure you.

[Songtsan]

@songstan ... take it easy ... I don't agree with you ... that's it ... we don't have to agree .. no problem.

 

Good luck.

 

yes...and please also see my continuation of this topic in 'My great realization thread'

 

I wanted to say this though, as a finish to what we were discussing.

 

There is no one Buddha. Each person in this world, who has ever heard of Buddha, has within them a mind construct of who Buddha is. I was not talking about your Buddha - I was talking about my own Buddha. My Buddha is an asshole to me (in part). That does not mean that I think your Buddha is an asshole necessarily. The thing is I don't even know what your Buddha is like, and for me to make judgment on your Buddha is silly. I retract my absolute statement of the nature of all Buddhas. Please know that my statement applies to my Buddha, not your guys' Buddhas. While I tend to believe that my statement does in fact, or is likely to to, apply to your Buddha as well, I cannot know this for sure, and so thus I retract my absolutist statement to that effect. I can do whatever I want to my own Buddha, and it is none of your business. I can strap him to a board and toss throwing knives at him. My Buddha is my own self after all. You don't tell me what to do with my own self, I don't tell you what to do with yours (ideally). In reality, on this board, we are all always telling each other what to do with our own selves, myself included. We are all great hypocrites. I accept this in my self. I accept it within you all as well. It is part and parcel of the nature of this game.

[idiot_stimpy]

Well you asked for it.

 

 

 

 

I am seriously writing a book on all kinds of cultivation stuff, SO: If you think I am wrong about anything I am talking about and you can change my mind, please go ahead, as I sincerely do not want to disseminate disinformation! Please argue with me the best you can, because only this will help my book....anything I talk about here (except the jokey joker stuff) will be in the book, so don't be shy to attack me. I like it! Whip me, beat me, put me in chains! (As long as you have the key to the lock though).

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30168-just-so-everybody-knows/

 

 

But now you cry?

[Songtsan]

Well you asked for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30168-just-so-everybody-knows/

 

 

But now you cry?

 

No - I mispoke - I didnt want nor need personal attacks. I wanted people to attack the specific philosphies that I was stating, with valid/logical arguments, not attack the ground of my philosophy, which is my core beliefs. I wanted people to give me constructive critcism, not try to undermine my root self. This helps me not at all. Please think hard about the differences between attacking someone personally, and constructively criticizing their philosophies. I shouldn't have been flippant with that post. I assumed everyone would get the right idea. Apparently I messed up and have been working to make people understand my true intention ever since. My bad.

 

The option is still open. Disagree with the philosophy, not with my personality, does that not make sense? Should I elaborate further? I thought I have made it crystal clear by now, but apparently I am lacking in effective communication skills still.

 

I will elaborate some here: If someone says 'you' in their attack on me, they are generally attacking me personally. If someone states, 'the logic here is faulty,' or 'this opinion on such and such subject seems weak,' or they say something like 'this belief,' etc. then that is useful. If someone says something like 'You are being an asshole for saying this,' 'Your head is on backwards,' 'You make no sense,' etc. etc. then it is going into the realms of taking what I say personally, making an absolutist statement about me as a person, and actually getting upset at me as a whole for holding to a particular belief structure, which is only one of many beliefs that I hold.

 

Avoid absolutist statements about me, and I will be more likely to do it for you as well. Focus in on the specific attitude you disagree with and leave it at that. Don't take it or make it personal. That's my ideal. Otherwise the shit hits the fan and we all waste time. I see it happen between bunches of people on here - everyone getting involved in ego-battles, everyone stereotyping eachother, everyone playing blame games, getting mad. I do it too - but I am trying real hard to get out of that habit. It makes more sense. Then everyone can debate issues without getting their feathers ruffled. Holding tight to opinions is stupid, so sayeth the Buddha himself, and in fact that is one of the vows they take. Identifying an opinion in someone and superimposing it upon your thought construct of who you think someone is, and then attacking the whole of that person instead of making sure that it is clear you are only debating a specific opinion just wastes time/energy and thread space. I can only go over this too many times before I do whats best for me and start plain ignoring any posts that go in this direction. I am compassionate, but I am also geared towards being effective, and this is a poor use of energy as I am stressing here and now and in most of the other posts immediately above this one. All I ask is for people to start realizing what they are doing. Accept it, get over it, lets all be friends, and grow together.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Songtsan