My great realization

[Marblehead]

No. I'm not going to suffer with you guys. I have enough work dealing with my old age pains.

[idiot_stimpy]

Could it be that sometimes you think too much? Hehehe.

 

Not thinking is a great release

[Songtsan]

Please don't. My chair has never been that complicated. Could it be that sometimes you think too much? Hehehe.

 

Really it's true - but I will not try to proselytize you. If you really want me to explain to you how it works I will. It's now accepted by the American Psychology Association, neuroscientists around the world, etc. if that means anything to you...

[Songtsan]

First of all - the world is real - its really out there - please dont think I mean that this is all in your head. What I mean is that your experience of the world is all in your head. That is an important difference. Here is what others say, if you don't trust me:

 

First - try this: http://neave.com/strobe/

 

Then read these for starts:

 

http://www.montgomerycollege.edu/Departments/StudentJournal/volume2/Ian.pdf

http://www.peterrussell.com/Reality/RHTML/R2.php

 

i could link with with thousands of more websites saying the same thing...they accept this at Harvard, by the way!

 

EDIT: Ok..so I tried to proselytize you again..you may sue me now.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Songtsan

[Marblehead]

Really it's true - but I will not try to proselytize you. If you really want me to explain to you how it works I will. It's now accepted by the American Psychology Association, neuroscientists around the world, etc. if that means anything to you...

Nope, it doesn't mean a thing.

 

I know how life works. I have been doing it for 72 years.

 

When you get as old as I am you can share some of your knowledge and experiences with me.

[Marblehead]

First of all - the world is real - its really out there - please dont think I mean that this is all in your head. What I mean is that your experience of the world is all in your head. That is an important difference. Here is what others say, if you don't trust me:

I know the world exists. I have been a Materialist nearly all my life.

 

No, my experiences are in my five senses. These experiences are interpreted by my brain. My brain sometimes misinterprets what I have sensed. (So does everyone else's.)

 

I exist and my chair exists and we are two seperate and distinct things amongst the Ten Thousand Things.

[Songtsan]

I know the world exists. I have been a Materialist nearly all my life.

 

No, my experiences are in my five senses. These experiences are interpreted by my brain. My brain sometimes misinterprets what I have sensed. (So does everyone else's.)

 

I exist and my chair exists and we are two seperate and distinct things amongst the Ten Thousand Things.

 

I never said the chair didn't exist separately from you - just that you live in your perceptions, and that you actually don't see the chair as it really is. There are senses, and then there are perceptions - the two are chained together, but are not the same. I only took a graduate psychology course in sensory-perception, numerous courses in anatomy and physiology, in which I studied how the sense organs worked, and I have since studied on my own for years on end - don't believe me if you already know it all, even though all the top neuroscientists believe the same as I do. There is a material world - you just don't directly perceive it. Did you even try those links I put up there? Just try the first one - it will take you all of 60 seconds. Unless you want to keep on believing old school stuff.

 

"The question of direct or "naïve" realism, as opposed to indirect or "representational" realism, arises in the philosophy of perception and of mind out of the debate over the nature of conscious experience;^[1][2] the epistemological question of whether the world we see around us is the real world itself or merely an internal perceptual copy of that world generated by neural processes in our brain. Naïve realism is known as direct realism when developed to counter indirect or representative realism, also known as epistemological dualism,^[3] the philosophical position that our conscious experience is not of the real world itself but of an internal representation, a miniature virtual-reality replica of the world. Indirect realism is broadly equivalent to the accepted view of perception in natural science that states that we do not and cannot perceive the external world as it really is but know only our ideas and interpretations of the way the world is.^[4]Representationalism is one of the key assumptions of cognitivism in psychology. The representational realist would deny that 'first hand knowledge' is a coherent concept, since knowledge is always via some means. Our ideas of the world are interpretations of sensory input derived from an external world that is real (unlike the standpoint of idealism). The alternative, that we have knowledge of the outside world that is unconstrained by our sense organs and does not require interpretation, would appear to be inconsistent with everyday observation."

[Marblehead]

Nope. I still suggest that you have it wrong based on my personal experiences. The chair and my perception of it are exactly the same. To say that I can't see the world as it really is because my senses don't reflect the true reality of the world is redundant. I have no other way to view the world than through my senses. I do not live with illusions and delusions (most of the time) and that allows me to see with my very own eyes when the fish ponds need more water or when I need to pull weeds out of my gardens.

 

My brain is going to work the way it was designed to work. Can't change that no matter what anyone says. Of course, we could fry our brain with drugs but I don't do that shit.

 

So I never really try to view the world from the quantum level because that level is totally incompatible with my senses and the operation of my brain.

[Songtsan]

Nope. I still suggest that you have it wrong based on my personal experiences. The chair and my perception of it are exactly the same. To say that I can't see the world as it really is because my senses don't reflect the true reality of the world is redundant. I have no other way to view the world than through my senses. I do not live with illusions and delusions (most of the time) and that allows me to see with my very own eyes when the fish ponds need more water or when I need to pull weeds out of my gardens.

 

My brain is going to work the way it was designed to work. Can't change that no matter what anyone says. Of course, we could fry our brain with drugs but I don't do that shit.

 

So I never really try to view the world from the quantum level because that level is totally incompatible with my senses and the operation of my brain.

 

I never said it wasn't super accurate - the reflection of reality, that is. But you do not experience your senses directly - when light hits the eye, it goes through a process called 'transduction' where the energy of the photon gets translated into electrical energy, which flows down the optic nerve into a few different areas of the brain where this energy is further processed in more than one area, then recombined and sent to the thalamus, which is like a central relay station. This is the beginning of awareness - it doesn't end here however, this awareness immediately gets sent to the higher processing centers in the frontal lobes, etc. where it is compared to memory, identified, etc. This is the perception part. If you could directly sense something - the photons bouncing off the chair would be delivered directly to the inside of the brain. It doesn't work like that - they stop at the eye, and the energy is translated and further processed. No direct perception. Only indirect.

 

Just please do this for me...go look at that first link - its not text - its an experience...it takes 60 seconds! PLEASE!?

[Marblehead]

Yes, I am aware of optical illusions. I have no problem with what you posted above. It is true as far as I understand it.

 

But let us remember that these electrical energies are moving at close to the speed of light. It doesn't take much time for all this to happen.

 

And yes, it has been said that there really are no colors in the universe. I accept this but it doesn't matter because my brain presents colored images to me. I like that. The red rose flower is red and its leaves are green. Just like they are supposed to be.

[Songtsan]

Yes, I am aware of optical illusions. I have no problem with what you posted above. It is true as far as I understand it.

 

It almost sounds like we are on the same page now...While some may consider that an optical illusion. I consider it a perception illusion. The photons coming in aren't changing, neither is the electricity going into the optical nerve, it is the brain, and the way it processes the information that changes. This shows the mutability of perception, and also the fact that perception never matches reality 100%. My whole point was that perception is only a simulacrum of reality, a best fit model. It is not, nor can it ever be 100% accurate or direct, unless perhaps one is merged with Taomind, etc. It is delivered to us via messenger service. There will always be something lost in translation.

 

 

But let us remember that these electrical energies are moving at close to the speed of light. It doesn't take much time for all this to happen.

 

Agreed

 

And yes, it has been said that there really are no colors in the universe. I accept this but it doesn't matter because my brain presents colored images to me. I like that. The red rose flower is red and its leaves are green. Just like they are supposed to be.

 

That's all I was ever saying - that the brain is responsible for colors. The molecules/electrons on the outside simply absorb certain wavelengths of light, and reflect others. There is no pink or green in these things, just levels of vibration. If there was no awareness in the world, there would exist no green or pink as we know it. If one takes a hit of LSD, one can experience their whole visual reality changing. In dreams, where there is no incoming data (unless you count data incoming from memories as the incoming data), especially lucid dreams, we get a chance to see how reality is manufactured in our brain. Dogs see in black and white, bees see in ultraviolet, cats see in infrared. The sensory-perception apparatus makes the reality as much as the incoming information does. It is what the brain does with the incoming information that creates our experience.

 

There was once a man who had a brain injury. It messed up his whole reality. He thought his wife was a coat hanger. He would come home and try to hang his coat on her. This is a true story. Belief is a neurochemical process. You think that the reality you see is something set in stone - it is while your own chemistry stays true, but as soon as your own architecture is altered, reality (perception of) becomes altered. Reality is more perception based than sensory based in some people. In most people, their perceptions match their sensations pretty closely, in some, especially those with brain injuries, mental illness, or those who use psychedelics, the translation is skewed, and thus perception is much farther from reality. All I merely am suggesting is that perceptions are mutable, and not fixed in stone. They are the end-result of the awareness process. Any screw up in perception leads to a reality that is more false than normal. All perceptions are somewhat false. Even if it is only by 0.01%. When one merges with Taomind, the perception is the truest, when one is far removed and lives in ego-mind, the tendency is for perception to be far removed as well from reality.

 

If I could magically replace your sensory-perception apparatus with something different, you would see/hear/taste/etc. differently. You are as much reality as the information coming in. Your reality is shaped by what you are.

 

If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around, does it make a sound?

 

NO!

 

A sound is a relationship process. It would create a shock-wave of vibration through the air, but that is it. The creation of noise requires a person to hear it - an ear to receive the waves, which goes through that process of transduction I mentioned, which turns those waves into electrical signals, which end up being processed somewhere in the temporal lobes, and this eventually creates what we perceive as noise. The noise part is created in the brain. Outside of the ears, the stimulus was actually just air molecules vibrating to a certain frequency. All sound, just like all color, is a perception manifestation. Dependent on outside stimulus to some degree (but not as well, as people can have audio hallucinations), yet separate via chained reactions from the senses themselves. Pitch, tone, volume, etc. these are created in the mind from the incoming information/stimulus. These did not exist in that form until the brain shaped that electrical signal.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Songtsan

[Marblehead]

You are saying about the same thing Vmarco talks about some times except that he rarely goes into the technialities of the processes as you have.

 

Yes, at this point we have an agreement.

 

And as my senses and brain have worked well for me all these years I think I will continue to rely on them.

[Songtsan]

You are saying about the same thing Vmarco talks about some times except that he rarely goes into the technialities of the processes as you have.

 

Yes, at this point we have an agreement.

 

And as my senses and brain have worked well for me all these years I think I will continue to rely on them.

 

you should! I never suggested not to trust them...just that I was speaking as to the validity of the Buddhist 'All is Mind' school. I do not believe the world is an illusion however - never would i say that. That chair is real and will exist when you are dead (likely...unless someone really heavy sits on it and breaks it). All I was saying is that the perception you have on it is cause dependent.

[RongzomFan]

Since dependently originated phenomena never arise in the first place, everything is illusion.

 

There is no arising, duration and cessation.

 

"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation, duration, and destruction."
-Candrakirti

 

"Once one asserts things, one will succumb to the view of seeing such by imagining their beginning, middle and end; hence that grasping at things is the cause of all views."
-Candrakirti

 

See the 8 examples of illusion.

[Songtsan]

Since dependently originated phenomena never arise in the first place, everything is illusion.

 

There is no arising, duration and cessation.

 

"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation, duration, and destruction."

-Candrakirti

 

"Once one asserts things, one will succumb to the view of seeing such by imagining their beginning, middle and end; hence that grasping at things is the cause of all views."

-Candrakirti

 

See the 8 examples of illusion.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Labeling anything as a 'thing' assumes it has fixed form, unchanging, or a beginning/middle/end, i.e. a strict demarcation. Energy/matter is always moving, fluxing, shifting, being juxtaposed. The definition of illusion is 'impermanence.' There are no boundaries between 'objects,' hence no 'objects' in the first place. Just one giant sea of energy, with denser spots of localized energy rising up like nodes. These give the illusions of separate objects. I view the universe as an ever-evolving fractal pattern, each part dependent on all others. Any small change in one part of the web will alter the shape of the entire. If Pluto suddenly disappeared, it would eventually mess up the paths of all the objects in the solar system. Astronomers have discussed this. It is just like a biosystem. Take out mosquitoes for example and a rip in the web of life would dramatically alter things for a while, until a new balance would be found. The sea of energy is like this in every aspect. Everything co-dependent, nothing self-originating - no beginning/middle/end.

 

"The rain in Spain falls mainly on the Spaniards."

Edited July 16, 2013 by Songtsan

[Jadespear]

We are all what we are.... Labeling and identifying is the nature of the mind to be able to understand and communicate.

 

You may call yourself a Taoist, Buddhist, Christian, Jew..... But that is not what you actually are those are thoughts concepts and ideas you carry around floating around what you actually are.

 

You actually are a moving living organism living on a planet that depends on that planet for your survival. How else could you truthfully define yourself?

 

As such an organism you begin to see that everything else is the exact same as you... Living organisms dependent on the planet for survival. It's only logical to love and have compassion towards all things because it keeps you alive.

[Songtsan]

Perhaps one should use labeling when communicating to others as is needed, but stop such labeling within the mind. This would end the dualistic mind, and increase chances of attaining oneness with what is.

[Jadespear]

This is what I don't understand about some of these topics...we are one with what is...the illusion is that we are not...the truth is that we already are. What is all the fuss about? We can feel closer, we can even absorb ourselves in total meditation...but that doesn't replace the fact that we are already one with what is. Once you begin thinking about that you will lose that sense of oneness because your mind does that for a reason. We are meant to co-create with all of our faculties to glorify the Great Tao...

 

All meditation and spiritual cultivation does is bring you closer to more subtle/gross energies and states of mind that exist in the universe, super-powers are side effects, and the vehicle also to explore other dimensions. The mind is not dualistic...you were not born thinking in dualities..."The mind is a great servant, but a terrible master."

 

All the judging that you do in your mind has a purpose...which is what I was talking about in a separate post about how our ego's exist for self preservation and can be used to move forward for the greater good... If you do not care about yourself and let yourself wither away, how will you be able to help anyone or do anything? That's the ego's job to me...not the ego of pride. The ego in the sense of self worth, of self motivation, of caring about yourself so you can learn things and help others, so your not a helpless worm in the cosmos.

 

Balance of course is the key fundamental attribute of taoism. Without balance in everything, our lives have holes. Holes that we seek to fulfill. And fulfill them we do...for awhile.

[Songtsan]

This is what I don't understand about some of these topics...we are one with what is...the illusion is that we are not...the truth is that we already are. What is all the fuss about? We can feel closer, we can even absorb ourselves in total meditation...but that doesn't replace the fact that we are already one with what is. Once you begin thinking about that you will lose that sense of oneness because your mind does that for a reason. We are meant to co-create with all of our faculties to glorify the Great Tao...

 

All meditation and spiritual cultivation does is bring you closer to more subtle/gross energies and states of mind that exist in the universe, super-powers are side effects, and the vehicle also to explore other dimensions. The mind is not dualistic...you were not born thinking in dualities..."The mind is a great servant, but a terrible master."

 

All the judging that you do in your mind has a purpose...which is what I was talking about in a separate post about how our ego's exist for self preservation and can be used to move forward for the greater good... If you do not care about yourself and let yourself wither away, how will you be able to help anyone or do anything? That's the ego's job to me...not the ego of pride. The ego in the sense of self worth, of self motivation, of caring about yourself so you can learn things and help others, so your not a helpless worm in the cosmos.

 

Balance of course is the key fundamental attribute of taoism. Without balance in everything, our lives have holes. Holes that we seek to fulfill. And fulfill them we do...for awhile.

 

this is all very true. However the ability to turn off the judging apparatus in the mind leads to great ecstasy, an extreme level of focus, which = the ability to maintain constant awareness (AKA superconsciousness) of any object, the ability to concentrate energy, which leads to enhanced abilities in gongfu, or just about anything. Also, with the wisdom eye of awareness open, which essentially means you aren't lost in analysis, you directly perceive the truth of reality without becoming caught in ideas about it. If you only live in the 'map,' you don't get to see the 'territory' as much. To feel more alive than ever before, drop the mind. Here is an example...a friend of mine did some really curvy roads on his motorcycle at like 60-90 mph. It was dangerous and reckless true, but he said he never felt more alive. That is because in moments of hyperconsciousness, the mind must completely focus on the moment by default. If he was busy thinking about what he was going to cook for dinner that night, he probably would have wiped out. He said he never felt more alive in his life.

 

Think skydiving, think wild sex, think first date with a beautiful woman, etc. It's moments that shatter the mind - put it on the back burner and that bring you out into the realest real that are the moments that we remember the most.

 

It's also very chemical. Dopamine rushes peak when life is exciting. Meditation techniques bypass the need for excitement by training the mind how to get that feeling of euphoria in any circumstance.

 

It's all about the zone.

 

It is exactly true that we are one with what is. I am all about the bliss for the most part.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Songtsan

[Jadespear]

Right on Songtsan.

 

Yes, in the now, in the present...in the Tao....it is a truely free and wonderfully exuberant feeling!

 

I sure would hope you would be all about the bliss!....what are you- a sadist?

 

Have you ever tried hindu chanting, or developing spiritual emotion (bhav)? They lead to some real intense bliss man...things I've never smelled or felt prior. It's awesome and totally worth checking out.

 

Just a side note....the intense focus you talk about I think I have used...it was in a bar once. I was so still, that all my thoughts and emotions began to become expressed through everyone else in the bar. My thoughts became their words, my pains became their sighs...my joy became their laughter. I was on a real internal emotion roller coaster that night! haha

 

Also, that same night I was able to basically hold and store up enough energy at the level around my head, that once I released it...it was like a wind gust coming from behind me and extending out. Crazy cool stuff man.

 

All that it took was for me to be still....for extended periods of time.

 

I love your profile pic too man, that's awesome!

[hydrogen]

Just a side note....the intense focus you talk about I think I have used...it was in a bar once. I was so still, that all my thoughts and emotions began to become expressed through everyone else in the bar. My thoughts became their words, my pains became their sighs...my joy became their laughter. I was on a real internal emotion roller coaster that night! haha

 

I've had a few experience like that.

 

It's strange. Pondering my experiences for a while now. I now question if the laughter from my surroundings generate my joy, or my joy produced the laughter.

 

My theory is that my emotional body was so in tune with the surroundings, it automatically produce "correct" emotion automatically without my mind register. In my deluded mind that I think I play the game of "God", I believe that my emotion controls the surroundings. In actuality, I just observed the "cause" and "effect" at the same time as the budhists say.

 

Since "time" is also a construct of "mind". My mind might have missplaced "cause" and "effect" intentionally according to my true "intent".

 

The only way I know how to train "intent" is virtue.

 

How To Slow Down Time

http://news.yahoo.com/video/slow-down-time-dnews-200000247.html

[Jadespear]

Interesting.

 

I'm quite certain of a few things in that regard, and I need to use some of hermetic terms to explain it.

 

First thing is that people in bars or people who are drunk are weak minded... They are easily influenced by anything....a thought, a sound, whatever.

 

So now onto hermetic terms, which are influenced by ancient Hindu terms. The Akasha aspect of creation is the source of the 4 other elements. The Akasha aspect in us is our causal sphere, or the world which causing things from within ourselves to happen outside of ourselves. It causes all effects everywhere.

 

So that being said, I also believe our minds to be receivers of the outside world, when they are turned on in such a way....

 

So as people who enter into stillness our Akasha aspect is strong and if we hold onto emotions or thoughts in that stillness we cause the effect of them to manifest in the world around us.

 

Magicians refer to this phenomenon as the cosmic mirror.

 

It's nothing more than your inner thoughts and emotions being expressed back to you as a function of the law of cause and effect in harmony with the laws of the universe.

[Songtsan]

Right on Songtsan.

 

Yes, in the now, in the present...in the Tao....it is a truely free and wonderfully exuberant feeling!

 

I sure would hope you would be all about the bliss!....what are you- a sadist?

 

Have you ever tried hindu chanting, or developing spiritual emotion (bhav)? They lead to some real intense bliss man...things I've never smelled or felt prior. It's awesome and totally worth checking out.

 

Just a side note....the intense focus you talk about I think I have used...it was in a bar once. I was so still, that all my thoughts and emotions began to become expressed through everyone else in the bar. My thoughts became their words, my pains became their sighs...my joy became their laughter. I was on a real internal emotion roller coaster that night! haha

 

Also, that same night I was able to basically hold and store up enough energy at the level around my head, that once I released it...it was like a wind gust coming from behind me and extending out. Crazy cool stuff man.

 

All that it took was for me to be still....for extended periods of time.

 

I love your profile pic too man, that's awesome!

 

I am all about bhakti and bhavas...I am a melting pot of spiritualities...My Ishta Devata is basically Kundalini. My aim however, is to attain bhakti style bhavs for everything and everyone. Nondualist style. Or Krishna-consciousness style since you mentioned the avatar.

 

I am definitely a believer in stillness as a gateway to unity consciousness. By stopping all the activity within, all the activity without can merge with us.

[hydrogen]

Magicians refer to this phenomenon as the cosmic mirror.

 

It's nothing more than your inner thoughts and emotions being expressed back to you as a function of the law of cause and effect in harmony with the laws of the universe.

 

Yep.

 

I think it's a feed back system. The out put of one individual feeds into the surroundings as input. The output of the surroundings feeds into that individual. The unfilled desire is the fuel.

 

If a guy feels sexually aroused, he then finds a mate to filled that desire, it's not a fule anymore to push the karma machine forward. If the same guy feels guilty about sex and try to control his desire by will power. It creates more chaotic karma patterns to deal with.

[Jadespear]

Right on Hydrogen.

 

In my practice I want to begin to travel out of the body. To astral travel. Have you any experience with this?