Xiang Gong - Fragrant Qigong

[Vajra Fist]

51 minutes ago, virtue said:

I doubt he has any practical or personal need to interfere with the pettiness in Chinese politics or to resist falsehoods cast against him

 

This is a good point. I wonder if he did come out, thereby proving the CCP media wrong, whether that would be viewed as a political challenge? His family are probably highly aware of what happened to Falun Gong when they challenged the government over the qigong ban. 

 

That said, does the question of dying of disease invalidate a qigong method? I know the wife of Chunyi Lin (founder of Spring Forest) also recently died. I can't find the interview where he talks about it, but I remember him saying something about certain diseases - the ones that come to take your life - are karmic in their nature, and beyond the scope of qigong's ability to stop. I can see how that would be true, otherwise qigong masters would live forever. 

 

Its certainly not the case that qigong masters live happily and healthily all their life. I mean, look at Doo Wai now. He's still alive but he's by no means healthy. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Vajra Fist

[senseless virtue]

1 minute ago, Vajra Fist said:

I wonder if he did come out, thereby proving the CCP media wrong, whether that would be viewed as a political challenge? His family are probably highly aware of what happened to Falun Gong when they challenged the qigong ban.

 

It would absolutely be a challenge and direct blow against the credibility of the CCP and their justice department.

 

 

1 minute ago, Vajra Fist said:

Also does the question of dying of disease invalidate a qigong method?

 

It may make one question the effectiveness of the method, but it mainly casts doubt on the competence of the practitioner. I think some of the rumors brought up in here earlier are exactly for this latter purpose, i.e. character assassination.

 

 

1 minute ago, Vajra Fist said:

I know the wife of Chunyi Lin (founder of Spring Forest) also recently died. I can't find the interview where he talks about it, but I remember him saying something about certain diseases - the ones that come to take your life - are karmic in their nature, and beyond the scope of qigong's ability to stop.

 

I agree. Qi is energy, karma is mind. Energetic workings can bypass some karmic issues, but not indefinitely. Deep karmic issues can only be healed by personal wisdom practices that go beyond energy healing capabilities.

 

 

1 minute ago, Vajra Fist said:

I can see how that would be true, otherwise qigong masters would live forever. 

 

Cultivation masters and enlightened beings can choose to extend their physical bodies indefinitely, but that is shunned as unorthodox conduct.

[Vajra Fist]

1 hour ago, virtue said:

Deep karmic issues can only be healed by personal wisdom practices that go beyond energy healing capabilities.

 

I don't agree that these issues can be resolved by dedicated practice. They seem as much to do with the laws of the human realm as they do individual cultivation. The Buddha apparently also died of an unspecified illness, and he had eliminated all karma and transcended the realm of samsara. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Vajra Fist

[senseless virtue]

3 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

I don't agree that these issues can be resolved by dedicated practice. They seem as much to do with the laws of the human realm as they do individual cultivation. The Buddha apparently also died of an unspecified illness, and he had elicited all karma and transcended the realm of samsara. 

 

Everything is the manifestation of the mind, even the physical body. The body is just some established karma already in action, so it will have natural course if it's not changed.

 

Following is reproduced from here: https://thrangumonastery.org/about/kagyu-lineage/naropa/

 

Eventually, Naropa saw Tilopa sitting on a very high cliff. He went over to him and prostrated, again requesting Tilopa to be his teacher. Tilopa responded by saying, "If you were really desperate and determined to learn the teachings, you would obey my order to jump off this cliff without any hesitation because you would be able to understand how important it is to follow the commands of your master." Naropa jumped off the high cliff and fell to the ground. All his bones and joints were broken into many, many pieces. Tilopa went down to Naropa and inquired, "Are you experiencing any pain?" Naropa replied, "The pain is killing me!" This is how Naropa got his name. ("Na" in Tibetan means "pain," "ro" means "killing" and "pa" makes the word a noun.) Tilopa gently touched Naropa's body and all his broken bones joined together and were healed.

[Zork]

5 hours ago, Iskote said:

 

Well, no one here likely saw the body, but his death did make the Chinese news, as later his 

son was reported to have been convicted of fraud for continuing to collect Tian Ruisheng's 

pension for quite some time after his death. 

"Son of sect founder is convicted of fraud" - South China Morning Post

https://www.scmp.com/article/420965/son-sect-founder-convicted-fraud

 

That news story says Tian Ruisheng was reported to have died in September 1995 of liver cancer. 

Unless one of us saw the body and medical documents, we can't say for sure whether the news story was

completely accurate or not, but chances are it is probably true that Tian Ruisheng died in 1995 of some type of cancer. 

I mean we could just as easily say there is no reliable evidence that Elvis really died because we personally may not have 

confirmed the physical evidence there as well,  but chances are pretty high that both are really dead, and that they 

both did die at the time they were reported to have died.  

 

 

Can you tell me what the source of the surge that creates Fragrant water is then?

If he is really dead then who the hell creates that powerful wave?

I am not convinced at all that he is dead, plus Xiangong is in the list of Forbidden styles of qigong.

So take what it is written about it with a grain of salt.

[Vajra Fist]

1 hour ago, virtue said:

It would absolutely be a challenge and direct blow against the credibility of the CCP and their justice department.

 

Reaching this point in cultivation, where you are no longer bound by the physical laws of the world, means you need to have first relinquished some fundamental attachments, primarily to life and death. If he has indeed reached this level, where he is like a god, having no attachments and no longer being bound by karmic forces, why would he allow doubt to be cast over his lineage in this way? Why hide away to avoid harassment from the CCP when he no longer has the attachment to life? Surely the validity of his method as a healing modality to be passed down for generations, would be more important than his life, at least at that level?

Edited June 15, 2020 by Vajra Fist

[Vajra Fist]

Of course, if he hasn't reached that level, its totally understandable to be afraid for one's own life or the lives of family. But also, its equally understandable to have died of a karmic disease.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Vajra Fist

[senseless virtue]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

why would he allow doubt to be cast over his lineage in this way? Why hide away to avoid harassment from the CCP when he no longer has the attachment to life? Surely the validity of his method as a healing modality to be passed down for generations, would be more important than his life, at least at that level?

 

Fragrant Qigong already was a secret style strictly passed from one practitioner to another inheriting it before Tian Ruisheng made it public. It would only be natural that it becomes a secret and elusive style once again.

Edited June 15, 2020 by virtue

[Toni]

I can only laugh reading your comments. Are u talking about a god or about a person who died of cancer even before his 70s? Lol

[Vajra Fist]

10 minutes ago, Toni said:

I can only laugh reading your comments. Are u talking about a god or about a person who died of cancer even before his 70s? Lol

 

I disagree with Virtue and others over the likelihood of him still be alive, and I also have misgivings over this style, but this is pretty childish. It would be better where you disagreed with the specific arguments, if you raised properly thought out objections, rather than just laughing at others or pouring scorn. A proper discussion benefits everyone. 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

If he has indeed reached this level, where he is like a god, having no attachments and no longer being bound by karmic forces, why would he allow doubt to be cast over his lineage in this way? Why hide away to avoid harassment from the CCP when he no longer has the attachment to life?

 

Having 'doubt cast over one's lineage' and having 'to hide away from the government' may be triggering to you and I.

 

But consider a gardener that cuts his rose bush down to the ground - to you and I, it looks like it's been killed off - but the gardener, having a deeper understanding of causality in this realm, knows that this allows the rose to conserve its strength and redouble its efforts in the next season - where it gets bigger, more vigorous and more bountiful.

 

Whether that's the case here - I wouldn't know. But this is just to illustrate that what might seem puzzling to us may be due to things we simply don't know or understand.

Edited June 15, 2020 by freeform

[SirPalomides]

38 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

Fragrant Qigong already was a secret style strictly passed from one practitioner to another inheriting it before Tian Ruisheng made it public. It would only be natural that it becomes a secret and elusive style once again.

Are you saying Tian’s children and John Dolic are teaching xianggong without authorization?

[freeform]

I should also add that death or severe illness in the internal arts (as a result of thes arts) is quite common. Like a top triathlete, at certain stages, a cultivator walks a tightrope - one wrong move and you're off... even one correct move at the wrong time - and you're off.

 

We can all enjoy snorkeling - but only a very few are ready to go on deep-sea diving expeditions.

[senseless virtue]

4 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

Are you saying Tian’s children and John Dolic are teaching xianggong without authorization?

 

Now that's a stretch if I ever saw any.

 

What I meant was obvious: The lineage holders are not concerned over whether their styles find popular support or government approval. If it's time to return to obscurity or the style to get lost in time, then so what. It's not a big deal.

[Cleansox]

4 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

Now that's a stretch if I ever saw any.

 

What I meant was obvious: 

I also thought that you ment what @SirPalomideswrote. 

[Vajra Fist]

19 minutes ago, virtue said:

If it's time to return to obscurity or the style to get lost in time, then so what. It's not a big deal.

 

This is not just something from this style. I noticed many masters from the qigong boom time just simply stopped teaching, or allowed the practices fall into obscurity, even when there wasn't a political risk. Yan Xin, who is apparently based abroad, is the other obvious one. Which begs the question, why did they start teaching in the first place if not to leave something for the future? 

[senseless virtue]

1 minute ago, Vajra Fist said:

why did they start teaching in the first place if not to leave something for the future? 

 

Dr. Yan Xin and others who have disappeared form the limelight have already have left public teachings behind, haven't they?

 

Like @freeform said above, the masters of sufficient caliber know the karmic conditions whether their continued public presence and teaching would benefit people or not.

[Guest ezza]

One foot in, one foot out?

 

Some teach what they can and will, and then just disappear. Mere theories and guessing here on my part but makes sense to me that perhaps they reach a point in their cultivation where they are required to become a renunciant in order to continue progressing. The other spectrum is to no longer progress, or worse, fall into deviant side-paths where gurus/teachers get involved with sexual abuse, become egotistical, go after power etc.

 

Teaching, especially as one gets more students and more popular overtime could very likely be cumbersome af.

 

Not only in the physical mundane sense of having too many requests and needing to divide up one's attention, energy, and time - also not to mention the kooky people who may cross your path - but also on a karmic level as there are many entanglements present, unless one is skilled at the level of seeing and being able to deal with it all skillfully. 

 

As @virtue mentioned, these people did leave something for the future by having even put forth the effort to teach in the first place. However not everyone wants to, or is capable of teaching throughout their lives; some choose to retire early, some wish to teach until they die, or until they are incapable of doing so. Just as with teachers of schools, universities and so forth

[SirPalomides]

7 hours ago, Zork said:

plus Xiangong is in the list of Forbidden styles of qigong.

Can someone produce this list?

[Cleansox]

5 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

Can someone produce this list?

There is also supposed to be a list of about ten styles that are ok, haven't seen that either.

[senseless virtue]

3 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

Can someone produce this list?

 

The miracle of GoogleFu produced:

 

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/eoir/legacy/2013/06/12/China060108.pdf

 

21. BANNED SPIRITUAL GROUPS ................................................................ 21.01

Falun Gong ................................................................................... 21.15
Other Qigong groups ................................................................... 21.47
Zhong Gong (China Gong) ........................................................ 21.48
Cibei Gong (Compassion Gong)................................................ 21.55
Guo Gong (Nation Gong)........................................................... 21.57
Xiang Gong (Fragrant Gong) ..................................................... 21.60
Bodhi Gong (Wakefulness/Awakening Gong) ...........................21.62

 

 

OTHER QIGONG GROUPS
 
21.47  As reported by Belief.net on 24 April 2000, in addition to Falun Gong, action was also taken against five other qigong (qi gong) groups towards the end of 1999. These were Zhong Gong, Cibei Gong, Guo Gong, Xiang Gong and Bodhi Gong. [71a] The USSD International Religious Freedom Report 2007 noted, “Membership in the Falun Gong, the Xiang Gong, Guo Gong, and Zhong Gong qigong groups was still considered illegal.” [2a] (Section II. Status of Religious Freedom, Restrictions on Religious Freedom)

[Zork]

 @Cleansox  

@SirPalomides

I have located the list in the past (in Chinese) but it eludes me right now.

What i have found is this list https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2007/90133.htm

Where Xiang gong is listed by name.

 

The allowed styles going by memory were Taichi qigong, Yijinjing, Baduanjin, Five animal frolics (not the spontaneous form), 6 healing sounds. This isn't the whole list.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Zork

[Cleansox]

This was not what I was looking for, in the late 90-ties several styles advertised that they were on a list of about ten approved styles. Maybe the list have changed. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Cleansox

[SirPalomides]

In the 90’s the category of “medical qigong” was promoted by the government, as opposed to “superstitious” styles with religious overtones or charismatic leaders.  Scams and cult/ mass-movement behavior were growing concerns.

[Vajra Fist]

28 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

In the 90’s the category of “medical qigong” was promoted by the government, as opposed to “superstitious” styles with religious overtones or charismatic leaders.  Scams and cult/ mass-movement behavior were growing concerns.

 

There was definitely a bit of this. But I think the approved qigong styles were those that had been donated to the state, and could thereby be used as 'generic' qigong under the national qigong association. The ones that were banned were the independent qigong styles that had a founder who wasn't a party leader. If there's a large independent group not directly under the control of the CCP then it becomes a threat. This is why Catholicism, with its Vatican leadership, has always had a rough time in China.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Vajra Fist