Extrapolation

[rene]

ex-trap-o-late
1. to infer (an unknown) from something that is known; conjecture

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The below was posted in a thread, and is the first time I've seen the direct path, the thought process, from something found in the Tao Te Ching to the end point of a cultivation goal:.

"The practices are based on interpretations and understanding of the "philosophy". People who came to a certain understanding applied that to a practice. Semen retention is a good example. It's not written in TTC, but what is written here and there throughout the text is to remain unasserted(ive), and to bail out before climax, not to strive towards a climax etc, there is more and it goes on but one could also translate those to mean that semen should be retained or that those principles also apply to sex."

The subject matter of the above is not relevant; semen retention may or may not have merits.

The question is: How do we know if what we read into a text is valid?

Using the above example, semen retention is undoubtedly talked about in other writings and practices - but reaching back to "find" it in the TTC seems, to me, beyond incredible. ("Sorry, honey, LaoTzu said I'm not supposed to climax.")

This is a small example of reaching back, and no disrespect is meant toward the original poster of those words. I'm sure he/she was taught this. Larger examples of invalid extrapolation are found across the board, in established traditions, seeking a tie-back to a core source for validation reasons.

I think it is an honest debate as to what words in the TTC mean (in this case whether or not 'remaining unassertive' is what was meant by LaoTzu) - but to then extrapolate that 'remaining unassertive' specifically supports a specific practice... just boggles the mind.

All thoughts welcome.

Edited August 8, 2013 by rene

[Wayfarer]

Hello Rene,

 

Having read some of your earlier posts I would think that you already know the answer to this question as I'm sure you have that wisdom but nevertheless it makes for an interesting subject.

 

I came to Taoism about 20 something years ago but for around 15-20 did nothing about it. I then experienced something a kind of spiritual epiphany and rather strangely stumbled across V16 of the TTC I had written in an old Tai Chi note book and saw "this described my experience" and it has become the religious/spiritual practice that best describes my findings and consequently is also the practice I think is best to help others to experience the same. So...how do we cut out the crap if we are to experience something worthwhile? By studying the words of people believed to be awakened, those believed to Know. If we only follow the word of those who 'think' they know, or who intellectually work things out, well we are in trouble really. If we are concerned over the translation we can learn some of the Chinese written language (as I think Chi Dragon reminds us to do) or take a look at a few translations and work with what speaks to us.

 

We can also compare different scriptures such as the Huai Nan Tsu and the TTC...what eventually we come to is the root of their meaning, of practice. What we think they mean, what scholars say they mean and we argue here is superficial to what they mean directly to us.

 

Of course, if you can find a teacher who has 'experienced' these deeper meanings then all the good. This is what I was referring to in my post about the future of Taoism in the West. There are people at TB who 'know', who have 'experienced' and can help clear the path for others. And may be this is the very forum to do it.

 

Marvellous huh?

Edited August 19, 2013 by Wayfarer

[rene]

Hi Wayfarer, thanks for your great reply!

 

We can also compare different scriptures such as the Huai Nan Tsu and the TTC...what eventually we come to is the root of their meaning, of practice. What we think they mean, what scholars say they mean and we argue here is superficial to what they mean directly to us.

 

I agree with all your thoughts. Regarding the above, yes, it is superficial and thankfully so, imo. It might be that even though specific things are back-read into a text, the doing so of such will help the seeker come to understand the underlying idea. If it does not,however, the door is flung open to see anything in anything - which may actually lead them away from what they seek. And when the 'teacher debates' begin, about what something 'truly' means, that's when it gets really fun to watch. Kinda. At the very least, it spotlights where teachers are on their path. (-:

 

warm regards

 

 

 

[doc benway]

 

The question is: How do we know if what we read into a text is valid?

 

 

I'll add another question - How do we determine whose authority to accept to validate our interpretation?

Sometimes, authorities are readily available and largely credible, sometimes not.

Buddhism vs Daoism illustrates this point.

 

However, even when there is an authority present, accepting that authority equates to simple belief.

Belief = a fervent hope that an explanation is valid, in the absence of direct knowledge. This is not what we are after, in general. Belief is cheap and often misleading. It's easy to change our beliefs but not our nature. What we are after is truth.

 

So I think it is important to go after direct experience whenever possible and to attempt to validate that based on whether or not it is moving us towards, rather than away from, living our lives consistent with our core values and in harmony with our surroundings.

 

And I think it's perfectly OK to simply not know. Rather than adopt a belief, what about becoming comfortable with the absence of knowledge, without replacing it with a belief? John O'Donnell speaks beautifully about the opporutnities provide by the abscence of knowing - the questioning that exists there concerning paradox. There is an openness and poteniality that doesn't exist when we replace questions with beliefs.

[rene]

I'll add another question - How do we determine whose authority to accept to validate our interpretation?

Sometimes, authorities are readily available and largely credible, sometimes not.

Buddhism vs Daoism illustrates this point.

 

However, even when there is an authority present, accepting that authority equates to simple belief.

Belief = a fervent hope that an explanation is valid, in the absence of direct knowledge. This is not what we are after, in general. Belief is cheap and often misleading. It's easy to change our beliefs but not our nature. What we are after is truth.

 

So I think it is important to go after direct experience whenever possible and to attempt to validate that based on whether or not it is moving us towards, rather than away from, living our lives consistent with our core values and in harmony with our surroundings.

 

And I think it's perfectly OK to simply not know. Rather than adopt a belief, what about becoming comfortable with the absence of knowledge, without replacing it with a belief? John O'Donnell speaks beautifully about the opporutnities provide by the abscence of knowing - the questioning that exists there concerning paradox. There is an openness and poteniality that doesn't exist when we replace questions with beliefs.

 

Agree. The openness of 'not knowing' enables the potentiality, imo, of hearing our true-self, that teacher of all teachers.

 

Nice reply, Steve. Thanks (-:

[ShifuC]

For an answer to this, you need to go back to a root source that pre-dates the TTC, the I Ching.

 

The I Ching is based on mathematics. Also, most people here and everywhere believe also in mathematics.

 

I won't bore you with details of the dirac delta function but suffice it to say it says that the only objective Truth is an infinitely thin line from 0 to infinity which if integrated from negative infinity to positive infinity (re: ALL of creation), its area or intergal is One. AKA Oneness. So the empty is 1. Thus 1/0=infinity is "convserved".

 

Now, this line if placed over a compass points "north". Every hear the expression "my life is heading south?" We all know what that means, and there is a reason we do.

 

When you place the #11 hexagram over the diagram proposed you'll note that Earth is on top, and heaven below. Empty in the mind, heart full of Tao/Qi/God/Yang. This is also called putting hsot and guest in their proper place. From this we know that the Universe is maintained in tranquility when I consciousness is removed and we consciousness replaces it. The heart is teh place where trust-worthy judgment happens. It is a vibratory measurign device. It flutters when you fall in love, it sinks when you feel terror.

 

If people wish to judge the I Ching, consider King Wen; and also the Sun, and I rest my case.

 

As for what this all means....

 

IN ANY PRACTICE, from retention to samadhi to reverse breathing there is no always right answer except what is right in the moment. You have to trust your heart and the vibration it is playing TODAY.

Consider this story from the Lieh-Tzu:
"Mr Shih of Lu had two sons, one of whom was a scholar and the other a soldier. The former found

in his accomplishments the means of ingratiating himself with the Marquis of Ch'i, who engaged

him as tutor to the young princes. The other brother proceeded to Ch'u, and won favour with the

King of that State by his military talents. The King was so well pleased that he installed him at the

head of his troops. Thus both of them succeeded in enriching their family and shedding lustre on

their kinsfolk.

Now, a certain Mr. Mêng, the neighbour of Mr. Shih, also had two sons who followed the selfsame

professions but were straitened by poverty. Envying the affluence of the Shih family, Mr. Mêng

called at his neighbour's house, and wanted to know the secret of their rapid rise in the world. The

two brothers readily gave him the desired information, whereupon the eldest son immediately set

off for Ch'in, hoping that his cultural attainments would recommend him to the King of that State.

But the King said: 'At the present moment all the feudal princes are struggling to outbid one an-

other in power, and the great essential is to keep up a large army. If I tried to govern my State on

the lines of benevolence and righteousness, ruin and annihilation would be the outcome! So say-

ing, he had the unfortunate man castrated, and turned him away.

The second son, meanwhile, had gone to Wei, hoping that his military knowledge would stand him

in good stead. But the Marquis of Wei said to himself--'Mine is a weak State hedged in by power-

ful ones.

Wei was bounded by Chin and Ch'i on the north, Lu on the east, and Chêng on the south.

My method of preserving tranquillity is to show subservience to the larger States and to conciliate

the lesser ones. If I were to rely on armed force, I could only expect utter destruction. I must not

allow this man to depart unscathed, or he may find his way to some other State and be a terrible

thorn in my side.' So, without more ado, he cut off his feet and sent him back to Lu.

On their return, the whole family fell to beating their breasts in despair, and uttered imprecations

on Mr. Shih. Mr. Shih, however, said: 'Success consists in hitting off the right moment, while

missing it means failure. Your method was identical with ours, only the result was different. That

is not due to any flaw in the action itself, but simply because it was not well timed. Nothing, in the

ordering of this world, is either at all times right or at all times wrong. What formerly passed cur-

rent may nowadays be rejected; what is now rejected may by and by come into use again. The fact

that a thing is in use or in disuse forms no criterion whatever of right or wrong.

There is no fixed rule for seizing opportunities, hitting off the right moment, or adapting oneself to

circumstances; it is all a matter of native wit. If you are deficient in that, you may possess the

learning of a Confucius or the strategically gifts of a Lü Shang, and yet you will remain poor

wherever you go.

The Mêng family were now 'in a more resigned frame of mind, and their indignation had subsided.

'Yes, you are right,' they said; 'please say no more about it.'"
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From this we can see that there are no permanently right answers to the subjective observer.

Now I can render an opinion on the topics brought up, but I reiterate that your own feelings and where you are at in your practices are what matters the most.