Help, I made an Alchemy mistake?

[Taiji Bum]

If you by any chance are visiting England, Master Zhixing Wang teaches alchemy. He has received transmission from the Wudan lineages of int. alchemy

 

Good luck

 

h

Cant you just print out my problem and show him?

Edited April 24, 2007 by DarinHamel

[Ian]

Cant you just print out my problem and show him?

 

I think you'll find Hagar lives in Norway! ZW is an extremely accomplished chap, but I doubt even he can read a piece of A4 across the North Sea.

 

And shouldn't you be the one making the effort? A master would likely want you to at least be bothered to turn up if you want his help.

 

Or were you just kidding? So hard to tell the tone from type.

[Wayfarer64]

Cant you just print out my problem and show him?

 

Darin !!!

 

 

Unless you are kidding-?!

 

What the hell is this ?! IF you have indeed gone through all that you relate to us here -then this just seems bizzzzzarr beyond belief to me. I am now incredulous about this whole thing. I am sorry, but it no longer rings true to me. How can you be so diligent in one way and so lame in another?

 

Or it may be that there is one of those psychological blocks at work here-as fearing to succeed may manifest...Or a fear of meeting a teacher who may indeed change yr life ....It just seems so - odd.

 

I wish you luck and all the joys of the world. I believe that the whole process has indeed left you more empty of life and purpose than if you had just spent yr time "smelling the roses " as it were...I do not wish to cause a rukus with this... but my mind has been blown by yr last entry here!-

 

Namaste-PDG

Edited April 24, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Taiji Bum]

How can you be so diligent in one way and so lame in another?

 

Sorry about being human. It sounded like he lived close to that guy and was attending classes or something. Sorry Hagar about not noticing you were from Norway.

 

I wish you luck and all the joys of the world. I believe that the whole process has indeed left you more empty of life and purpose than if you had just spent yr time "smelling the roses " as it were...I do not wish to cause a rukus with this... but my mind has been blown by yr last entry here!-

 

I totally agree. Your not causing a rukus you are seeing the truth. I failed utterly...

[Taomeow]

I failed utterly...

No, no, no! You didn't!

 

The ones who remain stuck with the illusion of an accomplishment, of "having arrived," are the only ones who fail. Rethinking your path is the step in the right direction -- having the honesty and courage to abandon it despite "all the hard work" if it proved to be a dead end is another one --

and it happened to the best, I am not aware of even one true sage who didn't have his or her moments, days, months, years of doubt and disillusionment. On a smaller-than-true-sage scale, my humble experience has been exactly the same. You can't begin to imagine how many times I was utterly convinced of "the way" only to exclaim, a few years down the road, "what an idiot I have been!" Long as you can do that, you never fail. Tao smiles and shows you... a hint, a clue... she gives none to the "I'm good enough no matter what I do and no matter what I believe" folks, only to the ones who go, "where did I go wrong?" 'cause, you know, if one is satisfied "as is," she won't bother helping, it's the NEED FOR TRUTH that resonates (ganying) with tao's offering of same... not this very second, usually, not "on demand" --

but eventually... she does. At least that's what she typically did for me sometime after another "what an idiot I was" entry I'd file in her database for kind consideration... She would go, "yeah, that's exactly right, you were an idiot..." ...and help.

[Wayfarer64]

Darin,

I know you are human and I hope you know that my heart is going out to you with this problem.

Taomeow hits on many truths there... I too have known my own idiocy too many times to remember all of them. (nor would I want to dwell on them)...

 

I also in no way think yr attempts through the strict following of your course was in any way a failure or waste or anything but a stepping stone. I just wanted to express the joy of having options available that may differ from the ones you have tried -and that they may also be worth your while.

 

As I think on this I can also see the merit in giving the whole thing a once-over and actually getting a teacher such as J. Yuen to help-it can't hurt. I realize that perhaps you were only expressing a certain amount of exhaustion, not lameness-sorry for the harsh wording.

 

It is just the deep sense of "nothing" being found that you expressed -that has me seeing real change as the way to go. But please be assured that many here are with you in spirit and with an all too human love that will often fail in the use of words.

 

Hang tuff sky-jumper there is furthering in your efforts no matter what they are!-

Pat

[Trunk]

As with everyone else, kudos to your dedication, and none of the following is meant to damper it, but to sharpen it.

 

The problem in your approach that seems most prominent to me is naivete. That you picked up a book and expected to get the full results as advertised, and on schedule ... leaves me speechless. I have a hard time knowing where to even start, other than to say: it generally doesn't work that way.

 

I'm not saying that you got a-hold of a bad book, but that your bullshit detector is sorely under-developed, with which you might be able to make better use of that - and other - books.

 

(Also, obviously, as other people have said - study with an authentic teacher if you're anywhere near that dedicated. It'll save you decades at minimum.)

 

The spiritual path is something that's a lifetime path (lifetimes, according to some traditions, and the learning curve certainly suggests that length).

 

 

 

"If you want to make God laugh,

tell him your plans."

[thelerner]

You've trained longer and harder then most of us. Seems to me you're sitting pretty high up and wondering what next? From my point of view, you are very accomlished. You've spent long ernest time 'on the mat'. There are fruits of your practice that you take for granted that many of us may never know.

 

The only thing I might suggest is- Sometimes when you work hard for something and it seems its eluding you, take a break, surrender your desire and let the universe decide.

 

 

Michael

[Smile]

I have read his bio and stuff and he is a priest of 2 traditions. But why do you think he can help? Does he teach Taoist alchemy?

He is very knowlegable in Daoist Alchemy and teaches basics sometimes... If someone in the class asks him about advanced stuff, he usually replies no one is qualified to practice it. He is right. Considering your former efforts, he may have time to help you, if he sees you're sencere. My friend asked Jeff to teach him alchemy and Jeff looked at him and said my friend is not ready (he was right- about to get married with 2 twin babies about to be born).

 

I would read closely what Trunk said. It's not that simple as following the instructions. I would say it's a sum of practice, merit, destiny, the teacher, etc. Too complicated to make a successful diagnosis by reading the energy from the post. From the first glance, there is not enough merit.

 

Wish you the best,

Max

[turbo]

Darin,

 

The only resources that I am aware of that could possibly be of assistance would be Bill Bodri and his teacher Nan Huai Chin. You can contact Bill through his webpage. His teacher, who claims to be a master of both Taoism and Buddhism, lives in Hong Kong, and is still alive and teaching. Plato visited him I believe.

 

Not everyone here is a fan of Bill, but none can argue with depth of his knowledge regarding spiritual cultivation.

 

I find inspiration in your seeking, and hope that all works out for you. Few have the desire to get started down such a long path and fewer the dedication to stick with it. Many talk the talk but few walk the walk.

 

My best,

T

[xenolith]

Relax Darin,

 

IMO...

 

Great strain is met with great gains when stress relief is employed.

 

You've built a spring that needs only to experience a reduction in ambient stress conditions in order for subsequent efforts to result in propulsion of awareness to levels beyond what has heretofore been encountered.

 

It's true that we can offer but feeble advice on your journey. Because it's your journey.

 

As such, I'd counsel consultation with a teacher only when truly lost. But in that instance it's very important to do so. Identifying that instance is of course of crucial importance. Err on the side of caution and give deference to uncertainty. But forget not that it's your journey and that in order to achieve the most significant of self awareness goals you'll need to release any teacher that you attach yourself to in order for the self to experience the beautiful lonely belonging within the Tao.

 

I hope you'll relax for now. And...

 

(Choose) Love.

 

xeno

[hagar]

How can you be so diligent in one way and so lame in another?

 

Sorry about being human. It sounded like he lived close to that guy and was attending classes or something. Sorry Hagar about not noticing you were from Norway.

 

I wish you luck and all the joys of the world. I believe that the whole process has indeed left you more empty of life and purpose than if you had just spent yr time "smelling the roses " as it were...I do not wish to cause a rukus with this... but my mind has been blown by yr last entry here!-

 

I totally agree. Your not causing a rukus you are seeing the truth. I failed utterly...

 

No offense taken. I have myself been in a position where I was burning with questions and didn't have the money to go to England. But the funny thing happened: When I finally got enough money scraped together, and finally where sitting there in class with Zhixing, I couldn't remember my questions. Or I found them irrelevant. Sitting there usually makes me appreciate things like how the light illuminates the glass in the afternoon sun, or more often the way the qi transmission makes me totally lost in oblivion, making me unable to hear what is being said at all.

 

Why do I say this? Just because if I did as you said, and showed him your words in print, the answer you'd get back probably would be about washing clothes, or more often being able to spot a fish in a river, or even more often an advice to just come and meet up in class. period.

 

Things like this are not about words in print. And alchemy, like life, is infinately more complex than the outlined map. If we are stuck with only the instructions, usually the nuances and intuitions that the classics urge practitioners to develop in cooperation with a teacher is lost.

 

I choose to take your request on face value, and trust that you are sincere. If you do want to progress on your path, meeting a teacher is not optional. If you do not see a teacher at some point, your impressive efforts will be in vain.

 

Lykke til!

 

h

[rex]

Strange you should ask. The major tongue curling energy circulations always happened four days before the full moon or on the 20th of the Jewish Lunar Calendar. Why?

 

Various systems make a connection between cycles of universal energy, the constellations, planets and the elements, and their parallels in the human body's energy cycles. These naturally lead to favourable and unfavourable conditions for certain activities, including spiritual practice. The lunar calendar is used to determine various types of practice, so for example, the waxing moon to connect with male energy and the waning moon with female energy. On the full moon (the 15th day of the Tibetan lunar month) the source of the body's vitality is said to reside at the crown. The Taoist text 'Can Tong Qi' by Wei Boyang also makes connections with moon phases, trigrams and refining the elixir. I think that such connections are more than just poetic metaphor.

 

Yoda - thanks for the further bit on animals in forest retreat.

Edited April 25, 2007 by rex

[Taiji Bum]

I wrote Bill Bodri and this is his response.

 

Your target is wrong. These things naturally happen if you just cultivate emptiness. So it's the Tao you want, not gongfu. See the free 189 pg download at the bottom of the STAGES pages (course) which goes over these things. Just cultivate to see your original nature and this will all transpire naturally. It takes about 13 years, plus or minus, but that's only IF you attained some stage of emptiness at the beginning and cultivate it all along the way. That's what people don't understand.

[spyrelx]

I wrote Bill Bodri and this is his response.

 

Your target is wrong. These things naturally happen if you just cultivate emptiness. So it's the Tao you want, not gongfu. See the free 189 pg download at the bottom of the STAGES pages (course) which goes over these things. Just cultivate to see your original nature and this will all transpire naturally. It takes about 13 years, plus or minus, but that's only IF you attained some stage of emptiness at the beginning and cultivate it all along the way. That's what people don't understand.

 

 

So what? What's the point of telling us that?

 

Listen Darin, I don't know if you're for real, pulling some shit, or just a little off kilter, but if you're on the level you need to stop flailing about.

 

Bill Bodri doesn't know anything. First off, he's a bit of a huckster. Second and more importantly, by his own admission he's a guy that hasn't achieved any of the significant levels he writes about. He doesn't know a thing. It's like me telling you exactly what heaven is like because I spoke to the Pope about it and he told me some stuff. And again, why do we care what Bodri said? This is your problem. Start making some decisions about it. You want to discuss some of those decisions, fine, but start managing you're own growth.

 

Be a man. You've been on an intense, unsupervised, solo spiritual journey for years and it hasn't gotten you where you've expected. OK, fine. Be a man. If you're still comitted to this course go find someone who is actually a real master of some of this stuff and try to learn from him. You seem like a pretty obsessive guy. It strikes me that if you put some effort into it you'd be able to find one.

 

If you can't find one, then keep working on your meditation. You haven't hurt yourself, so no harm done. There's no reason I see why you can't keep meditating while you try to find a worthwhile teacher.

 

Or, you might want to just consider taking a break on the theory that you've become one of those obsessive meditator types who's loosing touch with humanity and has in fact weakened rather than strengthened himself through relentless practice. Take a good look at yourself. If that's what's going on then drop all this for a while, eat some grain, go to the beach, find a girlfriend, etc. There's no reason why you can't come back to this after six months or a year with a fresh perspective.

 

You've gotten all the advice you can get here. It's time for you to do something. Take a good look at yourself. Then take some action. Be a man.

[Pietro]

Sounds like most of the things I wanted to say have already been said. On one sense you seem a very committed guy, on another it sounds strange at least that you went as far as you claim you did without consulting some living authority just to know if you were totally off track. Reminds me off Bruce's: "never underestimate human ability to selfdelude itself", or similar. I agree both with Spyralex, and with Trunk. But most of all I am puzzled on how could you interpret some of the instructions. For example sitting in front of a wall for 9 years what does it mean? Presumebly it does not mean to actually sit physically in front of a wall. But some people would say it does. So let's assume would mean to be in equanimity, so you took this not in a litteral sense, but in a symbolic sense. But then the 9 years bit. That you definitely interpreted in the most litteral way possible. But 9 has all sort of meanings in chinese culture, and you know. It is a yang number 3*3. It refers to completion. Couldn't that mean to just do that until it is complete? We don't know. And honestly if the teacher you consulted had not done it himself he does not know either. Or at least he would not be able to look into you (while you are physically present) and say if you are really into equanimity or you are just deluding yourself.

 

When Bruce had a particular peak experience (described in the book relaxing into your being) his teacher said: ok you break through, now you'll need about 10 years before the tree of illusion is completely cut off. Maybe that is the point in which you should start counting the sitting in front of a wall. It would make sense. But if you read his description that is a VERY advanced stage... and that is just the beginning. It is the moment when all the red dust settles, and you start to directly perceive reality. Did he completed it, after? I don't know. Is it automatic then? I know even less. And I am not suggesting you Bruce. He does not teach any Alchemy. But maybe you might be interested in going to china and becoming a taoist priest yourself.

 

But most of all I am really really puzzled that someone could prepare and follow through a more than a decade long program of meditation all by himself. I am not really sure if I should congratulate with you or spat on you. So in the meantime get some really damp congratulation for having done one of the most stupid thing you could have done in your life and have survived in good health. That is quite an achievement.

 

Pietro

[therion]

I think it is important to let go of the idea that 13 years of this or that will lead to immortality. That's just not how things work. Even John Chang who was guided by an actual immortal did not achieve enlightenment or immortality in 13 years. And this guy comes from a lineage that has produced immortals and even two who have achieved enlightenment. Just something to think about.

 

Don't know if it helps but what I've discovered is that we are always where we should be.

 

We are always presented with the next step and it is up to us to take the next step if we recognize it.

 

If we don't recognize what the next step is the first time it is presented that lesson will be presented over and over again until you get it.

 

Also when time comes you will come into contact with people who will guide you further on your path or somehow will make you realize what your next step should be.

 

If this has not yet happened then there are some lessons to be learned which have not been learned. The opportunities that present themselves mirror most of the time in what direction you should look for the next lesson.

 

I know this all sounds very vague but this seems to be the law of how things go whether you are just starting out or you are about to achieve enlightenment.

 

The next step is always there hidden in plain sight.

[Cameron]

Ime going to have to agree with what alot of others are saying. How you could have this much committment and focus to achive your goals while not going and seeing some teachers and getting feedback along the way is mind boggling. I mean, what if the translation you read was wrong?

 

Anyway, god bless you. Good luck on your path and meeting a teacher to help guide you.

[Smile]

Darin,

Bill Bodri gave you a good advice. Many schools of Daoist Alchemy start with cultivating emptiness as the foundation. I believe some call it "creating the cauldron" where the stillness is nessesary for the alchemy to take place.

Max

Edited April 27, 2007 by Smile

[DentyDao]

I think it is important to let go of the idea that 13 years of this or that will lead to immortality. That's just not how things work. Even John Chang who was guided by an actual immortal did not achieve enlightenment or immortality in 13 years. And this guy comes from a lineage that has produced immortals and even two who have achieved enlightenment. Just something to think about.

 

Hi Daren,

 

Actually 12 or 13 is correct number. But, even this kind of training would require a enlightened teacher. What you have experienced is a fantasy and most of the advice given here is typical of the nonsense that is standard on this forum. People who haven't got a clue so willing to jump in and start advising you.

 

Bill Bodri has some good training from Master Nan and the advice is sound. If you do Tapas or comparable training for the prescribed 12 years, you will reach enlightenment; but only with the grace of God/Tao and your teacher, if you are lucky enough to meet an accompished teacher in this life.

 

I have studied John Chang's system and he is no where near the level you hoped to achieve in terms of shen development. His school does not even emphasize this training until the student is already technically immortal.

 

As for the idea that it took John Chang more than 13 years achieve immortality, more BS. He actually achieved a very high level in a few short years when he decided he wanted to; and, not to mention, at the request and with the full authorization and approval of his master. I can't believe anyone would speculate on what John Chang has and hasn't done unless they knew the reality. Anything else only speaks to only itself.

 

I have also studied Wang Liping's methods; he is at the level of yang shen that you hope to achieve, and is able duplicate his body multiple times; this is the true test as to whether you have been successful with this style of practice.

 

Don't be a fool Darin. You have to be ready; even to begin this kind of practice requires years of proper training under the watchful eye of a very accomplished teacher who would only allow you to go into an undertaking of this magnitude if he or she knew you were ready and could safely complete the training without killing your self or going insane.

[hagar]

Hi Daren,

 

Actually 12 or 13 is correct number. But, even this kind of training would require a enlightened teacher. What you have experienced is a fantasy and most of the advice given here is typical of the nonsense that is standard on this forum. People who haven't got a clue so willing to jump in and start advising you.

 

 

Thanks for dissing Mr. Denty.

The only advice on my behalf was explicitly made to us as students being taught int. alchemy.

 

Alchemy is not dangerous btw. The only way you can end up in trouble is if you focus too much on the higher centres without coupling them with lower ones.

 

Trunk: I toally agree. Alchemy should never be undertaken without a foundation in the more macro level of pure sitting.

 

h

[Taiji Bum]

Hi Daren,

Actually 12 or 13 is correct number. But, even this kind of training would require a enlightened teacher. What you have experienced is a fantasy and most of the advice given here is typical of the nonsense that is standard on this forum. People who haven't got a clue so willing to jump in and start advising you.

Hey, are you this Sean Denty? http://forum.healingdao.com/general/message/10475%5C

Are you from Kalamazoo, MI? Do you still live in Michigan?

Edited April 27, 2007 by DarinHamel

[Pietro]

What you have experienced is a fantasy and most of the advice given here is typical of the nonsense that is standard on this forum. People who haven't got a clue so willing to jump in and start advising you.

 

This is brilliant! The advice we all agreed on was: find a proper teacher and study with him. You came, dissed everybodies suggestion... and then

 

If you do Tapas or comparable training for the prescribed 12 years, you will reach enlightenment; but only with the grace of God/Tao and your teacher, if you are lucky enough to meet an accompished teacher in this life.

 

went on suggesting the same.

 

Have you ever heard of a contrarian Sean?

[spyrelx]

That's Sean's thing, he can't make a comment without dissing someone. It reflects badly on him and his school, but that seems to be what he's about.

 

It's also worth noting that Sean has not achieved immortality, enlightenment or even significant advancement in the current training he's undergoing.

 

So when he says ". . . typical of the nonsense that is standard on this forum. People who haven't got a clue so willing to jump in and start advising you" he is talking as much about himself as anyone else on this board.

[Trunk]

.. typical of the nonsense that is standard on this forum. People who haven't got a clue so willing to jump in and start advising you.

Them's fightin' words!