Help, I made an Alchemy mistake?

[DentyDao]

Hey, are you this Sean Denty? http://forum.healingdao.com/general/message/10475%5C

Are you from Kalamazoo, MI? Do you still live in Michigan?

 

Hey Darin,

 

Yep, that's me. I found your experiences interesting, don't get me wrong. With your permission, I would be happy to relate your experience to my teacher and see what he says. Could be educational, for both of us. Perhaps I can convince him to provide you with some resources to reflect on.

 

In anycase, best of luck, S

[DentyDao]

So when he says ". . . typical of the nonsense that is standard on this forum. People who haven't got a clue so willing to jump in and start advising you" he is talking as much about himself as anyone else on this board.

 

Actually, this isn't really true. It is possible, in my experience, to learn quite a bit about the reality of these achievements before one has attained them. It's a gradual process; if you have a qualified teacher compassionate enough to educate you on the underlying principles, it's fairly uncomplicated to clearly see what is and isn't authentic in terms of achievement in a given spiritual path.

 

For example, your comment about Bill Bodri's lack of understanding is totally off base. For one he has studied with a very qualified teacher and has dedicated his life to understanding and practicing the teaching passed down to him. He may not be enlightened or immortal, but he has enough wisdom and clarity to give the advice he did to Darin. His teacher, Master Nan, has trained with some very highly achieved masters in Taiwan and he is a respectable authority on what he teaches even if the Daoist aspect is limited to what is specifically taught in that lineage.

 

Comments Like this one below that you made should not be taken lightly:

 

Listen Darin, I don't know if you're for real, pulling some shit, or just a little off kilter, but if you're on the level you need to stop flailing about.

 

Bill Bodri doesn't know anything. First off, he's a bit of a huckster. Second and more importantly, by his own admission he's a guy that hasn't achieved any of the significant levels he writes about. He doesn't know a thing. It's like me telling you exactly what heaven is like because I spoke to the Pope about it and he told me some stuff. And again, why do we care what Bodri said? This is your problem. Start making some decisions about it. You want to discuss some of those decisions, fine, but start managing you're own growth.

 

I see nothing here that is helpful. First of all, the opposit is true. Bill is very qualified and many respectable practitioners have spoken highly of his teacher and his teacher's teachers. When you make unskillful, uninformed judgements, you should be careful to consider who you are serving; in this case you are only serving your own interests and belief system without any regard for the facts or the consequences of your 'helpful advice.'

 

Actually, Karmicaly speaking, the result of spreading this kind of dishonest remark can be very harmful for the person making it. Especially if it is given in the context of advising someone in need of guidence. Most of, but not all, the advice given to others on this forum regarding what they should be practicing or what attitude to take in their practice is given by people who have also only explored Daoism on their own, without any formal knowledge or training. The level of unskillfullness and wasted energy that these interactions have the potential to create is real and people, myself included, should carefully reflect on what they are putting out there.

 

In particular, the idea that anyone here is qualified assess Darin's progress or encourage him is ludicrious. The best response would be silence or, if you have some clear idea about what is truly involved in this type of practice that has been informed by a qualified master, to let Darin know that he is clearly out of his depth and should really stop these practices.

 

Comments like, 'What I have have learned is go with the flow' or 'the Dao cannot be this or that' or 'you have already arrived Darin, be at peace' or 'Hey, I read a book that says you should live in the wild like an animal' are useless and just add to the confusion. Statements that are just totally false like, " John Chang did this and this' or 'Bill Bodri doesn't know anything' are even worse because they are totally incorrect, even if the people saying these things truly believe it.

 

On the other hand there are some great comments thrown in the mix that will hopefully help Darin realize the absurdity of his approach; which is not to say he is at fault or some how 'wrong' for his couragous endeaver. Definitly he has some balls, which is more than can be said for some. Now he just needs to decide how badly he really wants it.

 

This is brilliant! The advice we all agreed on was: find a proper teacher and study with him. You came, dissed everybodies suggestion... and then

went on suggesting the same.

 

Have you ever heard of a contrarian Sean?

 

Hi Pietro, Like some others, you have totally missed my point. After reading your interactions with Michelle D (totally hilarious by the way) this comes as no surprise.

 

My comment was not directed at you and the above advice is totally fine.

[Taiji Bum]

Hey Darin,

 

Yep, that's me. I found your experiences interesting, don't get me wrong. With your permission, I would be happy to relate your experience to my teacher and see what he says. Could be educational, for both of us. Perhaps I can convince him to provide you with some resources to reflect on.

 

In anycase, best of luck, S

Yes, please relate what you can to your teacher. I would appreciate it.

[DentyDao]

Them's fightin' words!

 

Choose your weapon

 

[Pietro]

 

Hi Pietro, Like some others, you have totally missed my point. After reading your interactions with Michelle D (totally hilarious by the way) this comes as no surprise.

 

 

UUh, what we got here. A dissent just for me. How precious!

 

My interaction with MichaelD went like this:

She asked for a male practitioner to have sex with.

I offered my services, at the agreement that I would also have teached her.

She first accepted then said she was not really interested in the first place.

She then started producing semipornographic images, to which I asked if she knew the difference between sex and pornography. She first claimed to know it, and then when pressed further she left.

 

I see no fault in my actions. And there are many taoist groups in which sex between strangers (even randomly chosen) is absolutely ok. Now here we are at the TBs. A place of discussion 'between schools'. On what inter-school base do your ground your dissent?

 

And since you claim to be superior to all this (with the spirit behind your words, if not with their litteral meaning), why don't you help her out? She is probably reading us and in great need of knowing the distinction between pornography and sex. Why don't you answer the question yourself, then.

[Cameron]

???

[Trunk]

Choose your weapon

* staggered, shaken by clever reparte and trumped level *

 

Darn, you, SeanDenty!!!!

 

* Logs off, heads for nearest cold root beer. *

[DentyDao]

And since you claim to be superior to all this (with the spirit behind your words, if not with their litteral meaning), why don't you help her out? She is probably reading us and in great need of knowing the distinction between pornography and sex. Why don't you answer the question yourself, then.

 

What you did is not wrong. Not what I'm saying at all. It's the simple fact that, like so many who are obsessed with this PUA, you seem to delight in and overly focus on this minor aspect of Taoism which has relatively little to do with cultivation. Not to mention the, perhaps more unfortunit, fact that most of the sexual practices that are being talked about and referred to here have little to do with real Jiao Dao Yin (sexual cultivation) which has it's uses even if it does not lead to liberation or any achievement within a spiritual context on its own and falls in the category of a minor branch of the Dao. It shows a relative lack of understanding and is offensive because it tends to reduce Taoism to a vehicle for persuits of pleasure, which in themselves are fine but have nothing to do with serious cultivation and are actually very counter productive. Forgive me if I can't take seriously people like you and Plato who go on and on about getting laid and working on pychological mind games to get women into bed and then turn around and start weighing in on cultivation where you clearly have little actual understanding. Again there's nothing morally wrong with it; it just shows a lack of depth.

 

If anyone should be giving commentarys, it's Darin, who amazingly devoted 10 years of his life to this practice like a scientist who cuts his own body to look at the function of the internal organs. Bravo Darin, in my book you are more knowledgable than most here, if only for the simple fact that you have some discipline not to mention the courage it takes to undergo this trail.

 

I like TaoBums the idea. From time to time some very useful information and view points are presented. The other side is the fact that much of what is discussed here falls deeply into the category of fantasy and illusion. It's not like some terrible sin is being perpetrated, but it shows a bit of self obsession to be constantly discussing ones self improvement routine and going on and on about practices that give you this and that kind of orgasm.

 

Most of this is harmless good fun, but when people start giving pretentious advice and throw in comments like:

I am not really sure if I should congratulate with you or spat on you.

This discussion can get really idiotic. Much of the 'advice' here is just people who want to condesend to Darin and listin to how 'smart' they sound. A few have good suggestions; the only decent advice was to get a teacher, but this was quickly followed by assinine comments like:

 

Listen Darin, I don't know if you're for real, pulling some shit, or just a little off kilter, but if you're on the level you need to stop flailing about.

 

and

 

You've gotten all the advice you can get here. It's time for you to do something. Take a good look at yourself. Then take some action. Be a man.

 

These people just like to hear themselves give advice. They preach about manners and politeness whilst they verbally abuse members here so they ca feel good about how much they think they know. They are much worse of then Darin, believing they have a solid foundation and have arrived somewhere, when the reality they are still practicing Michael Winn's creative inventions. I'm sorry to be blunt, but there really is no other way of approaching the issue. I'm sure Spyrelx will be crying about what scum bag I am, but the reality is, he along with quite a few, have given Darin advice that stinks and added their theories and speculations into the mix to add further confusion.

 

A few people made great suggestions, I wouldn't take away from their good intentions. If my comments touch a nerve I'm sorry, but after having spend the last decade plus as a serious seeker and the last five traveling around Europe and Asia and finally getting to settle into authentic Taoist practice, it's difficult for me to hear people presenting ficticious nonsense and useless theories to a man who is obviously sincere and reaching out in a real way.

[Smile]

There is no surprise, i agree with SeanD. Most of the teachings in the USA about what Daoist Alchemy is/isn't are leading NoWhere... At best, one will have mediocre results with some sensations and experiences with lack of wisdom perceived as enlightenment.

[Matt]

Edited December 2, 2008 by Matt

[Pietro]

What you did is not wrong. Not what I'm saying at all. It's the simple fact that, like so many who are obsessed with this PUA, you seem to delight in and overly focus on this minor aspect of Taoism which has relatively little to do with cultivation. Not to mention the, perhaps more unfortunit, fact that most of the sexual practices that are being talked about and referred to here have little to do with real Jiao Dao Yin (sexual cultivation) which has it's uses even if it does not lead to liberation or any achievement within a spiritual context on its own and falls in the category of a minor branch of the Dao. It shows a relative lack of understanding and is offensive because it tends to reduce Taoism to a vehicle for persuits of pleasure, which in themselves are fine but have nothing to do with serious cultivation and are actually very counter productive. Forgive me if I can't take seriously people like you and Plato who go on and on about getting laid and working on pychological mind games to get women into bed and then turn around and start weighing in on cultivation where you clearly have little actual understanding. Again there's nothing morally wrong with it; it just shows a lack of depth.

 

Thanks for the lesson. I will not comment on it,

still could you please show me your depth by answering my question?

What is the difference between sex and pornography?

 

Take care,

Pietro

[Trunk]

There is no surprise, i agree with SeanD. Most of the teachings in the USA about what Daoist Alchemy is/isn't are leading NoWhere...

Agreed.

 

All kidding and community-human-interaction-complications aside, it seems clear that SeanD is hooked up with a very high level authentic lineage that is transmitting both method and principle, along the lines we've all been interested in for many years. And, up to this point, it's been nearly impossible to get decent information - to the contrary (etc).

[Spectrum]

Thanks for the lesson. I will not comment on it,

 

...

 

What is the difference between sex and pornography?

 

Take care,

Pietro

 

Pietro is that a serious question?

 

Here's one; what is the difference between an idea and a dream? What is the difference between sparring and watching a UFC payperview event? Deep stuff.

 

Spectrum

 

PS - Darin - have you received any helpful replies from your request?

Edited April 28, 2007 by Spectrum

[Pietro]

Pietro is that a serious question of yours?

 

Extremely serious.

It can be life changing,

and I am challenging him

to provide the answer.

[Trunk]

Sean's attitude...

 

Well, foremost, the conversations need to be held in the context of priority. Mostly, at large, we lack coherent understanding and method of spiritual progression. That is way, way higher priority than the minor interpersonal ruffles. I mean, if we can't get through basic communication and brush the chips off of our shoulders in order to focus on real work, then there is really no hope.

 

Second, personally, I see Sean's communications as relatively patient and clear. There are some occasional mis-statements, loss of patience, but he's been in a swarm of bees here and he's only human - to me he seems to be speaking as clearly as anyone else, with more patience than most.

 

Where he's lacking, I think, is that he lacks historical experience with this group - and is taking for granted that we're all fresh off the HT/Winn boat, where-as the group as a whole has gone through quite a number of years & varied cycles of explorations since that trip. .. and are wiser for it. (Not accounting for the people who've shown up from totally different backgrounds.)

 

Also, his experience has been HT crap followed by exposure to very very accomplished Chinese medical practitioners and Cultivators. That's a radical contrast, and perhaps the extremity of that contrast plays out to some degree in his communications towards TTB's crowd. Acquired conditioning and playing out of psychology, like everyone.

 

(And, I'm just going from what little I see of SeanD as posted here. So, take it as my slightly-less-than 2 cents.)

 

It's a getting-to-know-each-other process. I just hope that people keep their sense of humor (and take rests), so we can get through this, as I think that in three to five years - as more students go to study with SeanD's teachers and practice, progress, and their group grows and matures - that that can have a fundamental change for the better on this whole scene.

[Cameron]

The main issue I see is we havent had enough time to see what kind of results people are getting from the Lei Shan Dao practices. Basically, we have Sean telling us it's the shit and everything we think we know is BS.

 

Obviously, if that's true no problem. I appreciate the wake up call. But would just like to get more feedback from other practitioners who go and study with David and his teachers.

 

As you said, these questions will all get answered over the next few years.

[Taiji Bum]

I just hooked up with a Dragon Gate Taoist close to me who is trying to help out. I will give her a chance first then I might be taking a trip to China again. The first time I went with my Taijiquan teacher this time I will be on my own.

 

I might try the David Shen thing too but that will take a bit more research into him. I might try Eva Wongs lineage too since I like her books and her methods seem similar to what I was taught.

 

I will definately pick up a Learning Chinese cd too. On this I need advice too since I would hate to learn Mandarin but the place I visit speaks Cantonese. I'll do a seperate thread for that question.

[Spectrum]

as I think that in three to five years - as more students go to study with SeanD's teachers and practice, progress, and their group grows and matures - that that can have a fundamental change for the better on this whole scene.

 

I would be willing to volunteer to shoot footage for a documentary about this. Tao Bums: The Movie.

 

The willingness to search is usually met w/ answers. The fact that there are so many people still seeking is a testament to the universal quest; there is still hope for humanity. However PhuturePrimitive.

 

Spectrum

[mYTHmAKER]

Darin

Have you noticed any changes in your being

or have you changed in any way, inwardly or outwardly,

from your meditations. i.e state of mind, awareness level,

sense of connectedness.

If you haven't perceived anything has anyone you know

commented on the way you are now as to the way

you used to be.

Changes can be very subtle

[Spectrum]

If your standing for any period of time as routine it's hard to believe in "no effect"...

[DentyDao]

Darin,

 

David would like to address some of your experiences in an essay for the forum. Just want to check if your comfortatble with that?

 

Let me know, S

Edited May 5, 2007 by seandenty

[Yoda]

I think SeanD is the spiritual successor of ex-taobum Ron Jeremy... both have valuable access to taoist related information and enjoy presenting it aggressively and are quick to sharply dismiss other perspectives.

 

From the glimpses I've gotten of various taoist lineages, this sassy style is more the rule than the exception.

 

It makes me wonder about the teachers who don't fit the mold... Is Ken Cohen really a taoist?

 

Maybe aggressive Taoism simply has a larger appetite for cyberspace.

 

Yoda

[Cameron]

You have to look at the bigger picture.We are all shaped in large part by our envioronments and the people we meet. Sean D spent years with Healing Dao and then found David Shen. David's teachers basically told him HT practices screwed him up and it took him twice the amount of time to do Lei Shan Dao foundation practice then it would otherwise. HT practices create "sick,twisted qi" in Sean D's words. Sean is a relative beginner of Lei Shan Dao and heavily involved in his teachers transmission of these practices(through his website and courses) I am personally grateful for the work Sean is doing even if it does rub people the wrong way at times. How many people do you know who's teachers are doing personal training with Wang LiPing?

 

 

Ken Cohen is one of those rare people who I think got really top notch instrucion from an early age. He was one of BP Chan's first american students in NY as a teenager and was standing for an hour a day and learning to speak chinese fluently at an age most of us didn't know what Taoism was. He 'accidently' bumped into a Taoist Priest in a bookstore one day who he immedietly became friends with and his student(I don't think his teacher was teaching publicly).

 

He became the disciple of Native Indian shaman Rolling Thunder at a pretty young age etc. So he was getting pretty high level instruction from authentic sources pretty early. I also consider Ken my first qigong teacher so alot of how I relate to other pracitioners I get from my meeting with him and studying his work. In general he is respectful, humble, down to earth. Ime also incredibly interested in checking out Master Tseng who is an authentic lineage Taoist teaching in Colorado.

[DentyDao]

[Cameron]

This is actually a pretty interesting idea.

 

The way I see it..I don't really know Sean D. I mean, all the mind boggling things we have heard about are interesting but to have one of our own and more down to earth or even skeptical members..like Yoda or Sean Omlor go to Foundation Training in China and come back to give us an unbiased report of what's going on would be cool.

 

From what I understand there are something like 1000 Tao Bums. If just 100 of us pitched in $75 that would be enough to send Yoda, Sean O or whoever to China.

 

Actually..since money is the major issue(and time) I think that would be a great idea. Only thing I don't know if Yoda has even expressed interest in going and I know he hates to travel.

 

But Ime guessing if we somehow all pitched in and paid for it his ass would get in gear