Help, I made an Alchemy mistake?

[minkus]

In any case, you must have developed incredible will, a quiet mind, an one-pointed concentration. You can't be far off.

 

Back on the horse then!

 

Yes thats what i mentioned on the foundation forums also, its not the place itself wich is valuable but the journey you took to get there.

 

I find DarinHamel's determination an inspiration, mucho respect !

Edited April 30, 2008 by minkus

[Taiji Bum]

Freeform,

What did I discover about my emotions? I guess I discovered that they are a tool like my intellect and will. The real me lies behind them and attachment to absolutely anything will obscure the mirror of the mind. I went through obvious periods in my meditations that brought my emotions, intellect and will to their peak of power I guess you could say, and then I "let them go" and moved to the next one.

 

I just pulled down the Tao Teh Ching and started reading. It amazing how much words and phrases change meaning with the passage of time. When I was first reading it daily I applied everything it said to calming my emotions since at the time I had a pretty hot temper. Then during the time of working on my intellect and when I started meditation/breath-work I saw it as an alchemy text and I tried to pry all its secret meanings away from it. When I began to teach taijiquan it took on a whole knew meaning and all the parts about governing men took on a whole new significance. I just read the first few pages and it seems like a totally new book again.

 

I think enough time has finally passed since my "failure" that I can start again with beginners mind. I'll start again with Tao Teh Ching too. What did I discover about my emotions? Straw dogs.

Darin

[Procurator]

Then during the time of working on my intellect and when I started meditation/breath-work I saw it as an alchemy text and I tried to pry all its secret meanings away from it. When I began to teach taijiquan it took on a whole knew meaning and all the parts about governing men took on a whole new significance. I just read the first few pages and it seems like a totally new book again.

 

Daode is such a fun book, i would LOVE to discuss it, it would be so terrific. Too bad its not on a book club agenda.

[freeform]

Thanks Darin,

 

I've found that to get down to the core of the belly one must pass through the dimension of emotions...

 

Emotions - in terms of bandwidth - have a far greater capacity than the mind and intellect. The problem is that initially emotions are tied to specific mind-patterns, we think of events 'causing emotion'. I've found that there really is no cause and effect relationship between emotions and external or even internal 'events'. Below the emotions are subtler 'signals' or what I sometimes call 'pulls' - it's the bodily sensation that precedes a full blown emotion.

 

Because your practices are directed by the intellect, I have a suspicion that your mind hasn't 'let go' quite yet - so it's like you shine your mental awareness down onto emotions, down onto the fomless, but you're still firmly rooted in the mind... This is all complete conjecture, of course!

 

If I was you I would try a completely formless style - something along the lines of Kunlun or the Balinese shaking dude - or anything else with no theoretical framework, just constant letting go. I'm certain there will be a small part of you that will find the lack of a roadmap very disconcerting, but you can make a promise to it that if after sustained, sincere practice it still wants that control, then it can have it.

 

You mentioned the 'will' - what's your understanding of that?

[voidisyinyang]

Darin: I recommend you read "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality." When you state you have felt no pleasure of an orgasm then that indicates you are relying too much on mind yoga -- which is the problem with Secrets of the Golden Flower.

 

Taoist Yoga trans. by Charles Luk indeed describes the experience of the internal orgasm as part of alchemy.

 

Also can you sit in full-lotus at ease for as long as you want?

 

Clearly two hours at ease is the minimum. But to enter true samadhi the body should be filled with electromagnetic fields so that no pain is felt.

 

Fasting is not the same as feasting on electromagnetic fields and the full-lotus is a good external sign of body transformation.

[DentyDao]

Edited April 30, 2008 by seandenty

[Guest allan]

Darin, whoever told you what to practise has probably misled you. The Circulation of the Light or the reversed flow method is not as you described. I suggest you reread the Secret of the Golden Flower and the Hui Ming Ching [W/B] several times before venturing into the meditation again.

 

It is not easy to be self taught especially where you have no idea of the real signposts. Apart from mainly recycled stuff, I have yet to read anything of value on the websites of the so called neidan masters. Perhaps a safer way would be to find a real master who does and learn from him or her.

 

Do not forget that neidan meditation only forms half of the requisite dual cultivation. Where is the other half that allows a practitioner to become the right person?

[DentyDao]

Darin, whoever told you what to practise has probably misled you. The Circulation of the Light or the reversed flow method is not as you described. I suggest you reread the Secret of the Golden Flower and the Hui Ming Ching [W/B] several times before venturing into the meditation again.

 

It is not easy to be self taught especially where you have no idea of the real signposts. Apart from mainly recycled stuff, I have yet to read anything of value on the websites of the so called neidan masters. Perhaps a safer way would be to find a real master who does and learn from him or her.

 

 

Again, the actual practice methods are not in this or any other book. You need a teacher or a different practice. Rereading or reading these books would be useful to someone, even with a qualified teacher, on an academic level only.

[gendao]

[DentyDao]

Hey Sean,

 

What is the ultimate goal of LSD or Long Men Pai?

Liberation, enlightenment, buddhahood.

 

Or the "Secret of the Golden Flower" exercise?

This is the foundation practice of the Long Men Pai. It's a Shen practice. It's also the best practice for westerners since it is probably the most universal/altruistic method to liberation. Very few people know this practice with any authority. Taoists believe in teh power of secrets. There are hundreds of fakes, but no of them can demonstrate the most basic outcome of the practice which produces very specific skills.

 

And off on a slight tangent, where exactly does the Gold Dragon/Rainbow/Diamond Body fall within those paths?

There are big differences in different traditions when it come to this phenomenon; seems like concepts like this and whole practices tend to get mixed together and/or invented. Most people claiming to be able to do these things are fakes, that's just the reality. When you can transform your Dan Yao, you are a Buddha.

[Guest allan]

Again, the actual practice methods are not in this or any other book. You need a teacher or a different practice. Rereading or reading these books would be useful to someone, even with a qualified teacher, on an academic level only.

 

How would you know that the actual meditation practice, though not complete, is not described in the Secret of the Golden Flower and the Hui Ming Ching? Did your teacher or his teacher(s) tell you or him that?

 

From what you have written in this forum, I do hope you would not keep mixing up Lei Shan Dao meditation practice with that of Quanzhen. They appear rather different.

[DentyDao]

Allen,

 

Not only is this common knowledge among intiates in the Long Men Pai, and others, Wang Liping himself discussed this in detail with our group. David is also a genuine scholar, recognized by the Chinese government and many high masters on teh subject. I've done the practice myself and undergone a practical curriculum in not one but three different lines. The actual method is not in texts or books, period. This is abundently clear. Students wait decades to learn this practice in the temples of China and even then the underlying theory is only partially explored. Not that there isn't some value in knowing some of the principles. I mean, most people knoe the very basics and those are in the books and they are clear and useful.

 

What is discussed in this and other texts are the principles and stages of the practice. Unfortunately, in part due to the complexity of the practice inself, texts are intentionally vague and incomplete. They are essentially partial commentary on the practice, processes and concepts. When you combine this fact that most scholars and practitioners do not clearly understand the terminology which is not found in the modern Chinese language, you end up with an impossible situation. This is infatically clear.

 

There are schools that have just the gong and part of Li and Fa (methodology and principles), and there are schools that have some of the Li, a piece of this, etc... Only a handful can call the immortal ancestors in the flesh to stand before you and strike reverence, and awe into the hearts of men and women. I mean Lu Dong Bin and the other fathers of the Dao, in the flesh. This is a living tradition.

 

There are many claiming to have this method, but they cannot move their shen and they have not, in most cases, been intiated or educated to understand what the practice truly is. If you just have the base of the method, it can be very useful and helpful in other practices and that is one of the strong points for including even a partial understanding of the method, as long as one has no illusions that they can cultivate Yang Shen Dao or Jin Dan Dao for example without a master to guide.

 

This does not mean that there aren't sincere practitioners who know some aspects and have achieved parts of the method; or that there aren't other methods to awaken.

 

I'm very aware that this practice has nothing or little to do with Lei Shan Dao, that would be silly; but then I'm not talking about the Lei Shan Dao, I'm talking about Liping.

 

Lot's of charismatic people would love to tell you that this practice is the birthright of mankind and all it takes is practice and information in books; if that were true then there would be many enlightened masters, but the reality is there aren't. The one's who are real can show it and demonstrate the objective skills to create strong faith in the student. There are about 10-20 real master left in China in this tradition. The rest range from awaken practictioners who have some knowledge, but are far from being a master to common criminals who have no knowledge or believe they do out of ignorance.

 

I think anyone who has a sincere interest in this way deserves respect, but it's also import to have intelligence and measure real progress in objective terms. If you can't be honest with the process then you will never succeed. Faith has to be tested and your practice needs to stand up to these criteria and standards that the ancesters layed out. This isn't something I'm offering as a personal opinion, this is just the way it is.

 

Only someone who has gone through the practice and succeeded to a high level can show you how to hold your shen and then master it to the required degree, and then support the real practice and life time of development.

 

Of course there is such a thing as a spiritual genius, one in a million, but it does happen. even these gifted souls would require a teacher at the higher levels.

 

Consider this, Wang Liping can count his equal in the Dao on his fingers, he is a living Buddha, but when asked he will tell you he but a child in the Dao compared to his three masters. One of the three is still in his earthly body. He never moves, they call him the stone Buddha; he is fixing his place in Heaven and from what David says he is a king in Heaven, a true God.

 

Keep reading your books...

[gendao]

[mantis]

seandenty, could i send you a pm?

[DentyDao]

Hi David,

 

First of all, I'm not enlightened, so obviously bear that in mind. I can only repeat what my teachers have said and give some basic info.

 

The Long Men Pai and other lines that we study share the common asperation of enlightenment. This is very much in line with the Buddhist philosophy of enlightenment.

 

You should study Buddhism. It will really help clarify this for you, to that extent that it can be clarified at your (most of us) present level of intelligence. Enlightenment has nothing to do with Nilhism. This is the first teaching of the Buddha David. Nihlism is the antithesis to Buddhist philosophy. Nilhism says that there is no future life; when the body dies, we become extinct. It also denies the existence of absolute truth, making it perhaps the most destructive, negative view one can have because it denies any consequence for your actions or meaning or purpose. Nilhism may seem like smart outlook and intelligent view, but the Buddha rejected it because it always leads to suffering eventually.

 

Enlightenment is the realization of absolute truth; total self knowledge. Beyond that, you should really look to your practice and learn Dharma to get a better understanding of what enlightenment is.

 

As far as Yang Shen Dao or similar practices being just another attachment, people who speculate about such things or make statements like this are ignorant and have no idea what these things are. Nirvana can happen at level three in the Lei Shan Dao. The Buddhas that choose to go beyond these levels do so out of selfless service. It's not possible for us to realize such things at our level of understanding, but we can perceive some aspects in realitive, dualistic terms; we need to go beyond this before we start to make judgements and understand what immortality is.

[Taiji Bum]

Sean Denty,

How can I find out more info about the group your in? Are there any events/talks/seminars coming up? Does it have anything to do with the Bill Bodrhi stuff?

Darin Hamel

[voidisyinyang]

Just sit in full-lotus. This chair -- metal and round -- is too high and slippery! haha.

 

Just sit in full-lotus. This chair -- metal and round -- is too high and slippery! haha.

[Guest allan]

[gendao]

Hi David,

 

First of all, I'm not enlightened, so obviously bear that in mind. I can only repeat what my teachers have said and give some basic info.

 

The Long Men Pai and other lines that we study share the common asperation of enlightenment. This is very much in line with the Buddhist philosophy of enlightenment.

 

You should study Buddhism. It will really help clarify this for you, to that extent that it can be clarified at your (most of us) present level of intelligence. Enlightenment has nothing to do with Nilhism. This is the first teaching of the Buddha David. Nihlism is the antithesis to Buddhist philosophy. Nilhism says that there is no future life; when the body dies, we become extinct. It also denies the existence of absolute truth, making it perhaps the most destructive, negative view one can have because it denies any consequence for your actions or meaning or purpose. Nilhism may seem like smart outlook and intelligent view, but the Buddha rejected it because it always leads to suffering eventually.

 

Enlightenment is the realization of absolute truth; total self knowledge. Beyond that, you should really look to your practice and learn Dharma to get a better understanding of what enlightenment is.

 

As far as Yang Shen Dao or similar practices being just another attachment, people who speculate about such things or make statements like this are ignorant and have no idea what these things are. Nirvana can happen at level three in the Lei Shan Dao. The Buddhas that choose to go beyond these levels do so out of selfless service. It's not possible for us to realize such things at our level of understanding, but we can perceive some aspects in realitive, dualistic terms; we need to go beyond this before we start to make judgements and understand what immortality is.

Thanks again, Sean.

 

Well, when I said nihilism I was referring more to "local nihilism" of our local consciousness and ego, I guess.

 

Jed McKenna, some shamans & even Buddha seem to say you must cut off ALL earthly attachments - including tightknit relations with family and loved ones. And essentially detach from your own personal history. And certainly, most of these guys did abandon their families for years on end or more during their spiritual quests.

 

But, it seems by expanding out from your local identity, you can then assume a much larger one and thus become "one" with the universe. Which would then be the opposite of "absolute nihilism."

 

However, as I have experienced neither "enlightenment" nor Yang Shen Dao...I am admittedly "ignorant" of both - and thus asking now, lol. And not trying to judge either - just openly speculating. And I do realize that such phenomena may well not be fully expressible in existing verbiage, anyways. But still never hurts to ask, right?

[DentyDao]

[DentyDao]

Thanks again, Sean.

 

Well, when I said nihilism I was referring more to "local nihilism" of our local consciousness and ego, I guess.

 

Jed McKenna, some shamans & even Buddha seem to say you must cut off ALL earthly attachments - including tightknit relations with family and loved ones. And essentially detach from your own personal history. And certainly, most of these guys did abandon their families for years on end or more during their spiritual quests.

 

But, it seems by expanding out from your local identity, you can then assume a much larger one and thus become "one" with the universe. Which would then be the opposite of "absolute nihilism."

 

However, as I have experienced neither "enlightenment" nor Yang Shen Dao...I am admittedly "ignorant" of both - and thus asking now, lol. And not trying to judge either - just openly speculating. And I do realize that such phenomena may well not be fully expressible in existing verbiage, anyways. But still never hurts to ask, right?

Maybe I didn't understand your question... I don't believe that rainbow body or something similar is a form of ego attachment. I would speculate it's a higher state of detachment if anything. In order to achieve these levels, one would have to have a great deal of detachment and realization.

 

In my Buddhist study, I learned that these things generally transend our relative thinking and ability to conceptualize. Remember that someone who is enlightened by diffinition is beyond dualistic thinking and concepts.

[DentyDao]

...However, untill Buddhahood, even the Gods fall. Even in traditional Taoist circles, this is clear.

[mantis]

seandenty, could i send you a pm?

[DentyDao]

Just email me: seandenty at hotmail.com

 

btw, David, Jed McKenna is not enlightened. That's the problem these days, his book will actually do more to confuse people even if it has some good aspects. If we really want to clearly understand these things we have to invest some time to study with a good Buddhist teacher. These days there are very few left. You need to find a well respected Khenpo or Lama. Theravada and Hinayana are somewhat limited in my view because they are dependent on interpritation people who are not enlightened, a lot is missing. Part of understanding Dharma comes from actual realization and experience. I'm speaking in general here is you want to understand things like Rainbow body in their correct context. People who dismiss such things are totally ignorant and usually have no realization.

 

Sean

[gendao]

Just email me: seandenty at hotmail.com

 

btw, David, Jed McKenna is not enlightened. That's the problem these days, his book will actually do more to confuse people even if it has some good aspects. If we really want to clearly understand these things we have to invest some time to study with a good Buddhist teacher. These days there are very few left. You need to find a well respected Khenpo or Lama. Theravada and Hinayana are somewhat limited in my view because they are dependent on interpritation people who are not enlightened, a lot is missing. Part of understanding Dharma comes from actual realization and experience. I'm speaking in general here is you want to understand things like Rainbow body in their correct context. People who dismiss such things are totally ignorant and usually have no realization.

 

Sean

Well, I haven't even actually read his book myself - but just got a synopsis from someone else who did. And based upon that, neither of us felt like he has actually attained "full enlightenment." So, I agree he probably overstated his claim - although he may still have found a piece of the puzzle that can be useful. The point was not that he is for a fact enlightened, but establishing some common consensus about dropping ALL worldly attachments towards enlightenment.

 

Which would logically include deeply "loving" ones too, no? Because are't romantic or parental love some of the biggest desires/attachments of all? So should beggars, lovers, family & kids all be viewed with neutrality, then? Hell, why even feel anything at all if nothing really matters? Which is what the state of non-duality feels like - a state of perfect neutrality because nothing matters...

 

Now, these basic questions are probably all Buddhism 101, but I think that is excusable since this is a Taoist, not Buddhist forum.