Tonglen practice: any evidence of concrete effects?

[hagar]

Hi

 

In times of need, I have been dabbling with Tonglen practice. Especially related to loved ones or familiy members. I have had some strange coincidences happening with this before.

I wonder if anyone have any concrete "evidence" of its effectiveness.

 

In my experience Tonglen has some of not all of the characteristics of a blessing or prayer, but in addition has an energetic aspect.

 

1. Does anyone have any evidence of negative effects, like taking on others illnesses etc?

2. Is there any way to enhance the effectiveness of this practice

 

For me personally, the benefit is a lessening of self-importance, or false self-awareness, and greater compassion and empathy. But still, I have read several places of the actual merit of this practice to the recipient of Tonglen, like actual healing, emotionally or otherwise.

 

Feel free to share, if you have any insight into this practice.

 

h

[Mal]

Hey H, found an old thread with no real info :-)

http://thetaobums.com/topic/1332-is-tonglen-practice-healthy/page-2

 

I like old threads http://thetaobums.com/topic/453-osho-rocks/?p=3137 it's a shame Yoda err... "got religion"

 

and a recent one http://thetaobums.com/topic/16220-benefits-of-cultivating-loving-kindnesscompassion/?p=432811

 

Generalization - may have a slight depressing quality that some personalities could find challenging (eg. probably me, as I can get depressed sometimes) but can also be used to treat depression. While I practice loving kindness meditation, I haven't done tonglen very often.

 

Apparently the Dali Lamas practice is Tonglen and it sounds like you are finding it beneficial

Edited July 16, 2013 by Mal Stainkey

[RongzomFan]

shouldn't this be in the Buddhist section?

[hagar]

Thank you Mal,

Those threads did not pop up in my search.

 

From what I have read here and elsewhere, very little is said about the effects on others. Not experientially, anyway.

The same goes for prayer, or blessings for that matter.

 

Having had experiences with both remote healings and blessings myself, but from a master, I am just curious about the actual effects of sustained practice of such meditations as Tonglen, prayer or blessings of any kind done by eh... lay people.

 

And I think this is a pretty eclectic topic, thus not entirely a Buddhist issue. Many similar practices abound in both Daoist, hindu and even Judaic and Christian traditions.

 

But actual experience from current practictioners?

 

h

[Jetsun]

There is a story in the book "Ultimate Healing" by Lama Zopa Rinpoche of a guy healing the HIV virus from doing a form of Tonglen. It was a more elaborate method though which involved imagining your sickness and selfishness as a black ball in your heart then imagine all the other people with the same affliction of you in suffering, then imagining all their suffering leaves them in a black stream or smoke out of their right nostril and enters into your left nostril, which goes straight down into the black ball in your heart and destroys it. Imagine that you have completely freed all those beings from suffering and pray that your suffering replaces theirs and then imagine giving away all your merit, happiness, body, possessions to them which leaves you as a stream of white light from your right nostril which enters into them through their left nostril and fills them with happiness.

[hagar]

=)

Thank you

 

Wonderful suggestion Cat

[Cheshire Cat]

Are there any tonglen-like practices in other traditions?

I'm not aware of any of them: I think that tonglen is a genuinely pure vajrayana experience with no counterparts in other tantric traditions.

Generally, those kind of practices are born out of some mental speculation -with superficial or no actual experimentation- on the precise effects.

 

This practice is still in the testing phase: I would leave it for the most advanced practitioners and rely on more time-tested things.

 

My 2 cents.

[C T]

Tonglen is primarily a tool or a practice to diminish/eradicate self-cherishing, which is seen as the main block to cultivating bodhicitta.

 

There is no greater blessing than the removal of self-cherishing, according to buddhist thought. Its the only antidote which will bring permanent healing to the world.

[Seth Ananda]

I have met 2 people who were cured of mental illness, as recipients of tonglen.

 

One had bipolar disorder for many years, till one of the gyuto monks asked him to sit in front of him while he meditated.

 

The other was in the midst of a psychotic episode, and Lama Zopa {i think, or one of his entourage} did something similar. Both of them described feeling like the 'crazy' was literally being sucked out of them.

 

Also, { i dont remember which account this belongs too} the monk in one of the stories told the recipient afterwards that he had a case of the 'evil' winds.

 

I found this interesting as yet another friend who was having a psychotic episode ran into an Aboriginal healer who told him he was having an attack of the evil winds and promptly grabbed his head and sucked the crazy out, sucking just above his left eyebrow then spitting over and over. He had a massive hickey bruise there for a few weeks.

 

It is the original, shamanistic form of cupping, which is also like tonglen I suppose.

 

mouth sucking, cup sucking, energy sucking... lol

[hagar]

Great, thank you all for feedback.

 

Self-reliquishing and self-cherishing all come out of the same paradigm of the separate self. However, eventhough one might feel profound effects personally in diminishing the false self through consciously intending to aquire the suffering of others, there is, in my own experience a dimension in Tonglen, that is similar to blessing and prayer: that of letting a power within/without or in the heart to dispell the "dark", "evil" or suffering, that has nothing to do with your personal intent or will to do so. I might feel that in order for Tonglen to be effective, the ability to open and let this quaiity to do its work is the key. This light in the heart/mind, in whatever form is what dispells, and this is a form of "grace" or the actual blessing.

 

This is what I find deeply profound. It is really great to see practices that dwell on the principle of going deep into the heart of darkness, or suffering to there create the most potent transformation.

 

Thank you Seth, for those examples. The reason I did this inquiry was for a family members who might suffer from a degree of mental illness or neurosis. I have seen my teacher treat mentally ill (schizophrenic) patients. He went out into the garden behind the retreat center to find the spirit of the patient who was indoors. Then he lured and guided the shen/light back into the room and after a few hours, made it fuse with the body again.

 

I feel that when one comes to a spesific place in one´s own practice, there is no point in doing the practice anymore if not for the benefit of others, or all. It is even detrimental to do it only for your own benefit purely. It builds plaque on your original face...

 

So I feel it is a practice, from an energetic perspective that must be held up to a certain standard. Not for dabblers. And I feel it might have energetic issues related to it, if not done correctly.

 

Any thoughts?

[C T]

As with most, if not all mind tools and practices in Vajrayana, there are outer, inner and secret levels and different aspects to consider within each one.

 

It is quite spectacular and noble what your teacher did, and what those monks (from Seth's post) did to alleviate the conditions prevalent in the aforementioned students at that time, but such profound abilities take years to master, and i am certain the requisites need to be carefully examined and learned thru those who are qualified, and not something which can be fully discussed on a forum.

 

On an outer level, tonglen helps to cultivate openness and dissolves fear and all the rest of the delusional constructs which ties one to dualistic habitual responses.

 

On the inner level, tonglen helps to develop compassion, equanimity and skillful means (upaya). Exchanging self for others is very effective for cultivating equanimity. The Buddha said that even if one were to alleviate the suffering of beings numbering greater than all the grains of sand in the Ganges, in truth, no beings suffer, no one was helped. Think about that in light of tonglen practice.

 

On the secret level, it gets metaphysical and esoteric -- how are such aspects going to understood save for spending time in properly guided retreats or closed-door lessons from yogis and/or adepts?

 

Just my humble thoughts.

 

 

 

 

Of relevance to the outer practice, this is a very helpful article:

 

http://www.upaya.org/roshi/dox/Tonglen.pdf

 

 

 

Peace and blessings!

Edited July 17, 2013 by C T

[hagar]

On the inner level, tonglen helps to develop compassion, equanimity and skillful means (upaya). Exchanging self for others is very effective for cultivating equanimity. The Buddha said that even if one were to alleviate the suffering of beings numbering greater than all the grains of sand in the Ganges, in truth, no beings suffer, no one was helped. Think about that in light of tonglen practice.

This really rang true for me, and at a non-conceptual is what is real. In that light, the deep significance of Tonglen is not it´s intended effects, nor its efficacy, but how it dissolves separation.

 

I did Tonglen on my son when he was ill, and realized that he was actually helping me. In a sense, what comes out of such practices is not only compassion, but gratitude. And sometimes awe.

 

Thank you also for the link=)

 

h

[RongzomFan]

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA63&dq=tibet:+A+History+Eight+Verses+tonglen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dKfmUYOfLtDB4APR_oHQCA&ved=0CDAQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=tibet%3A%20A%20History%20Eight%20Verses%20tonglen&f=false

[RongzomFan]

Everyone is saying tonglen is Vajrayana. I thought it was Sutrayana.

[C T]

Everyone is saying tonglen is Vajrayana. I thought it was Sutrayana.

The first time i received tonglen teachings was at a Nyingma retreat.

 

My family (a few generations) are all Theravadin practitioners and tonglen was never mentioned.

[RongzomFan]

Nyingma is a school with as a whole spectrum of sutra and tantra teachings.

 

And of course Theravada does not have tonglen.

[RongzomFan]

I'm pretty sure tonglen is Sutrayana.

 

Can anyone show its Vajrayana?

[Cheshire Cat]

I'm pretty sure tonglen is Sutrayana.

 

Can anyone show its Vajrayana?

Can you show its sutrayana?

[C T]

I'm pretty sure tonglen is Sutrayana.

 

Can anyone show its Vajrayana?

http://books.google.ie/books?id=qVVb5-42GhEC&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=is+tonglen+a+vajrayana+practice&source=bl&ots=jDYEq3rLHY&sig=pyfN4k-saiTmXTl6f2fFzaqFWFA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h6PnUbTNDpSIhQemo4DABA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=is%20tonglen%20a%20vajrayana%20practice&f=false

[C T]

Be nice if we do stick to the topic, and not give cause for deviating into petty fact-finding discussions.

 

just a btw.

[Apech]

I'm pretty sure tonglen is Sutrayana.

 

Can anyone show its Vajrayana?

 

 

It's part of mahayana mind training ... not specifically vajrayana but incorporated in some practices like ngondro as preliminary.

[Jetsun]

I thought it was from the 8 Verses of Mind Training by Atisha, you give and take on the breath. Although it doesn't really matter where its from.

 

Practically I have found if I practice it it helps with me getting on with my work colleagues, but at the moment spiritually I don't find it helps at all so I don't do it regularly.

[hagar]

The notion of merit, or building merit is sometimes related to such practices. Is this in any way related to Tonglen?

[C T]

It's part of mahayana mind training ... not specifically vajrayana but incorporated in some practices like ngondro as preliminary.

Its my understanding that a main motivating factor behind mind training is to arouse, sustain and cement bodhicitta. The arousing and sustaining aspects are hinayana and mahayana respectively while the concretizing aspect is vajrayana.

 

These aspects are interwoven, first loosely, then more focussed as progress sets in, to generate one fabric of wisdom and compassion, which is the basis of the whole buddhist path, and cannot be clearly delineated as Alwayson seemed to want to assert.

 

Both Mahayana and Vajrayana core concepts share the ideals of bodhicitta, bodhisattvic aspiration and fruition, and realizing union of wisdom and emptiness.

 

Having said this, i think anyone from any school of practice can (even should) incorporate tonglen into their routine. Its such a positive practice.

 

From the earlier threads on this topic, going back some years even, there seem to be a bit of vagueness of understanding in relation to the breathing in (of negativities) part. In its proper scope, the visualization during the in-breath is to bring the black or dark things thru the practitioner, into the earth (or into Yama's gigantically opened jaws lol) where it transforms into light and returns out to its intended destination in its purified form. Hence, the darkness is not transformed within the physical body. This is the preliminary stage of practice.

 

In the absolute level, the transformation is spontaneous due to developing unceasing clarity of equanimous poise.

 

 

This practice can indeed generate a lot of merit, for others as well as for self, but only on the relative level.

 

Your thoughts?

[RongzomFan]

http://books.google.ie/books?id=qVVb5-42GhEC&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=is+tonglen+a+vajrayana+practice&source=bl&ots=jDYEq3rLHY&sig=pyfN4k-saiTmXTl6f2fFzaqFWFA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h6PnUbTNDpSIhQemo4DABA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=is%20tonglen%20a%20vajrayana%20practice&f=false

This reference doesn't really help.

Be nice if we do stick to the topic, and not give cause for deviating into petty fact-finding discussions.

Fact-finding is off topic?

Alwayson seemed to want to assert.

 

What am I asserting?

Edited July 18, 2013 by alwayson