Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chen Mo w/ audio and video commentaries

[Simple_Jack]

 

I ended up doing a search on the internet to see if there were any video and/or audio commentaries on Lama Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chen Mo/The Great Treatise On The Stages of The Path To Enlightenment from any venerable teachers...Lo and behold, I found some resources which I think are good enough to share.

 

For anyone interested you can read the text from a 3 part translation on amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Great-Treatise-Stages-Path-Enlightenment/dp/1559391529

 

A collection of mp3 files from a set of teachings on this text by H.E. Choden Rinpoche: http://www.lamrim.com/lamrim/

 

Audio commentary by Abbess Thubten Chodron: http://www.thubtenchodron.org/AudioLibrary/index.html

 

A link to someone's youtube channel, that has a set of talks given by H.H the Dalai Lama, on the Lam Rim Chen Mo at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, PA (also included in this link is a partial listing of his other teachings on this text given elsewhere): http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL63437123ADC315D0

 

Another youtube channel with a video series of talks on the Lam Rin Chen Mo: http://www.youtube.com/user/ChenrezigCtr?feature=watch

 

This is from the official website of H.H. the Dalai Lama which has recordings of numerous teachings and appearances at events, press meetings, etc. I'm posting a link to a series of talks on Atisha's Lamp For The Path To Enlightenment and Tsongkhapa's Great, Middling, and Concise Treatises on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment: http://dalailama.com/webcasts/post/267-18-great-stages-of-the-path-lam-rim-commentaries

 

Other recommended video/audio commentaries from that website:

 

Je Tsongkhapa's Praise for Dependent Origination - http://dalailama.com/webcasts/post/226-praise-for-dependent-origination--avalokiteshvera-permission-initiation

 

Je Tsongkhapa's The Three Principal Aspects Of The Path - http://dalailama.com/webcasts/post/289-the-three-principal-aspects-of-the-path

 

[RongzomFan]

1. Geshe Thupten Jinpa, the Dalai Lama's translator, fully admits Tsongkhapa is a deviant who did not honor the existing tradition:

 

"The traditional Geluk understanding of these deviations in Tsongkhapa's thought attributes the development of his distinct reading of Madhyamaka philosophy to a mystical communion he is reported to have had with the bodhisattva Manjusri........It is interesting that the tradition Tsongkhapa is claiming to honour is, in a strict sense, not the existing system in Tibet; rather, it appears to be in the tradition of Manjusri as revealed in a mystic vision!"

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=2LhdnDp118oC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=It+is+interesting+that+the+tradition+Tsongkhapa+is+claiming+to+honour+is,+in+a+strict+sense,+not+the+existing+system+in+Tibet;+rather,+it+appears+to+be+in+the+tradition+of+Manjusri+as+revealed+in+a+mystic+vision&source=bl&ots=S692C899ki&sig=X0qtjc4iajoL-Lm4PL6LtKKCYrs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WqbuUdz2JNGl4AOl8YGwAg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=It%20is%20interesting%20that%20the%20tradition%20Tsongkhapa%20is%20claiming%20to%20honour%20is%2C%20in%20a%20strict%20sense%2C%20not%20the%20existing%20system%20in%20Tibet%3B%20rather%2C%20it%20appears%20to%20be%20in%20the%20tradition%20of%20Manjusri%20as%20revealed%20in%20a%20mystic%20vision&f=false

 

2. Gorampa said Tsongkhapa was seized by demons and spread demonic words. He also did a detailed substantive critique of Tsongkhapa's "Madhyamaka."

 

"Gorampa, in the Lta ba ngan sel (Eliminating the Erroneous View), accuses Tsongkhapa of being "seized by demons" (bdud kyis zin pa) and in the Lta ba'i shan 'byed (Distinguishing Views) decries him as a "nihilistic Madhyamika" (dbu ma chad lta ba) who is spreading "demonic words" (bdud kyi tshig)."

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=u7ZtE1bhtRYC&pg=PA125&dq=Gorampa,+in+the+Lta+ba+ngan+sel+(Eliminating+the+Erroneous+View),+accuses+Tsongkhapa+of+being+%22seized+by+demons%22+(bdud+kyis+zin+pa)+and+in+the+Lta+ba#v=onepage&q=Gorampa%2C%20in%20the%20Lta%20ba%20ngan%20sel%20(Eliminating%20the%20Erroneous%20View)%2C%20accuses%20Tsongkhapa%20of%20being%20%22seized%20by%20demons%22%20(bdud%20kyis%20zin%20pa)%20and%20in%20the%20Lta%20ba&f=false

 

"Even as serious a scholar as Go rams pa cannot resist suggesting, for example, that Tsong kha pa's supposed conversations with Manjusri may have been a dialogue with a demon instead."

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=gbT01AXrmisC&pg=PA17&dq=Even+as+serious+a+scholar+as+Go+rams+pa+cannot+resist+suggesting,+for+example,+that+Tsong+kha+pa's+supposed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yAfyUfHmL5jb4AOq5IDQDw&ved=0CD0QuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Even%20as%20serious%20a%20scholar%20as%20Go%20rams%20pa%20cannot%20resist%20suggesting%2C%20for%20example%2C%20that%20Tsong%20kha%20pa's%20supposed&f=false

 

3. Karl Brunnholzl's Center of the Sunlit Sky indicates that Tsongkhapa's interpretation of Madhyamaka is not consistent with any Indian text or the other Tibetan schools. Furthermore it has contaminated western scholarship.

 

"First, with a few exceptions, the majority of books or articles on Madhyamaka by Western - particularly North American - scholars is based on the explanations of the Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism. Deliberately or not, many of these Western presentations give the impression that the Gelugpa system is more or less equivalent to Tibetan Buddhism as such and that this school's way of presenting Madhyamaka is the standard or even the only way to explain this system, which has led to the still widely prevailing assumption that this is actually the case. From the perspective of Indian and Tibetan Buddhism in general, nothing could be more wrong. In fact, the peculiar Gelugpa version of Madhaymaka is a minority position in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, since its uncommon features are neither found in any Indian text nor accepted by any of the other Tibetan schools."

 

"All critics of Tsongkhapa, including the Eighth Karmapa, agree that many features of his Centrism are novelties that are not found in any Indian sources and see this as a major flaw."

 

4. Tsongkhapa and Gelugpas are weirdo radicals, according to Sam van Schaik's basic history book, Tibet, A History:

 

"......Tsongkhapa was coming to realize that he wanted to create something new, not necessarily a school, but at least a new formulation of the Buddhist Path."

 

"........with Tsongkhapa's own personal interpretation of the philosophy of the Madhyamaka."

 

"As Khedrup and later followers of Tsongkhapa hit back at accusations like these, they defined their own philosophical tradition, and this went a long way to drawing a line in the sand between the Gandenpas and the broader Sakya tradition."

Edited July 26, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Why should one study Tsongkhapa over the original Indian texts, Madhyamaka and otherwise?

Edited July 17, 2013 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

Why should one study Tsongkhapa over the original Indian texts, Madhyamaka and otherwise?

 

Because Tsongkhapa learned and synthesized teachings from the Sakya, Kagyu; while combining and revitalizing the Kadampa traditions going back to Atisha. Besides, for those other weirdos (like me) who are drawn to Tsongkhapa: his teachings could serve as a means for understanding and applying the Dharma.

 

There is also a possibility that there are those who are unsatisfied with the standard presentation of Madhyamaka: who have an affinity for and prefer his exposition on the nature of conventional truth in relation to ultimate truth.

[RongzomFan]

Because Tsongkhapa learned and synthesized teachings from the Sakya, Kagyu; while combining and revitalizing the Kadampa traditions going back to Atisha.

 

No he didn't. See quotes above.

[RongzomFan]

Besides, for those other weirdos (like me) who are drawn to Tsongkhapa

 

Yes those that worship the demon Dorje Shugden.

[C T]

Yes those that worship the demon Dorje Shugden.

This is so unnecessary.

 

Not all Tsongkhapa followers are D Shugden worshippers.

 

They have access to other protector deities besides DS, like Setrap for example.

[Jetsun]

Wasn't Tsongkhapa responsible for rejuvinating monastic Tibetan Buddhism when it had fallen into severe degradation with sexual indulgence on the rampage, so his interpretation of Buddhism can't be that bad if that is what he is responsible for. If he had been so incorrect then you would have seen a further degradation, but that didn't happen.

 

Also if you read the Lam Rim Chen Mo he is constantly referencing other Buddhist scholars and masters to back up whatever point he is making so I don't see how it is all his own personal interpretation.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

 

No he didn't. See quotes above.

A fitting sentence can be a stake that tethers a donkey for 10000 eons.

[C T]

Wasn't Tsongkhapa responsible for rejuvinating monastic Tibetan Buddhism when it had fallen into severe degradation with sexual indulgence on the rampage, so his interpretation of Buddhism can't be that bad if that is what he is responsible for. If he had been so incorrect then you would have seen a further degradation, but that didn't happen.

 

Also if you read the Lam Rim Chen Mo he is constantly referencing other Buddhist scholars and masters to back up whatever point he is making so I don't see how it is all his own personal interpretation.

Yes, which explains his zealous emphasis on renunciation, do you agree?

[RongzomFan]

Not all Tsongkhapa followers are D Shugden worshippers.

 

I didn't say they were.

 

But Shugden worshippers are rabid Tsongkhapas, who view Shugden as the protector of Tsongkhapa's teaching or the emanation of Tsongkhapa.

[RongzomFan]

Wasn't Tsongkhapa responsible for rejuvinating monastic Tibetan Buddhism when it had fallen into severe degradation with sexual indulgence on the rampage

 

???

 

Monastic Kagyus were already thriving.

 

And Tsongkhapa was the one who said monks could practice karmamudra.

 

Everyone else said you have to give back your monkhood before karmamudra.

 

Atisha clearly said that karmamudra was for qualified lay persons only.

 

So again here is an example of Tsongkhapa deviating from Atisha, a person whom he cites.

Edited July 20, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Also if you read the Lam Rim Chen Mo he is constantly referencing other Buddhist scholars and masters to back up whatever point he is making so I don't see how it is all his own personal interpretation.

 

That's the great irony.

[C T]

I didn't say they were.

 

But Shugden worshippers are rabid Tsongkhapas, who view Shugden as the protector of Tsongkhapa's teaching or the emanation of Tsongkhapa.

Are you saying they are confused as to whether shugden is a protector or an emanation of Tsongkhapa himself? Im interested briefly to know your source for this assertion.

 

Anyway, this really has nothing to do with the topic, so dont expect any further input from me in relation to this.

[RongzomFan]

Im interested briefly to know your source for this assertion.

 

Dorje Shugden forum:

 

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php

[RongzomFan]

Are you saying they are confused as to whether shugden is a protector or an emanation of Tsongkhapa himself?

 

The point wasn't the specifics. Every Shugdenpa has a different take.

 

The point was that they view Tsongkhapa and the demon Shugden as inseparable.

Edited July 20, 2013 by alwayson

[Jetsun]

Yes, which explains his zealous emphasis on renunciation, do you agree?

 

Yeah, I guess in that respect we have to keep his teachings in the context of the climate they were first given in.

 

As I understand it Buddhism periodically needs rejuvenation and adaptation to be relevant to the constantly changing outer circumstance, and Tsongkhapa was one of those who came alone at a critical period and rejuvenated it, which is why he is regarded in such high regard.

[Creation]

Yeah, I guess in that respect we have to keep his teachings in the context of the climate they were first given constantly changing outer circumstance, and Tsongkhapa was one of those who came alone at a critical period and rejuvenated it, which is why he is regarded in such high regard.

The bio I read made it seem that he was held in high regard primarily because he was a peerless scholar-yogi who deeply understood, practiced, and expounded upon all aspects of the dharma (sutra, tantra, vinaya, pranama, abhidharma, etc.). I guess different people will have different perspectives on the same person.

 

Tsongkhapa was an ethical reformer no doubt, but I strongly suspect the whole "Everything was so decadent until Tsongkhapa set things right" line is a polemic from over from medieval times, when each sect developed their beliefs about why they are the best and why the others are inferior, for sectarian and political reasons. Case in point, that kind of thing was said about the Nyingmapas during the "dark age" but historical evidence has come to light that a lot of really incredible dharma activity was going on in that period.

 

EDIT: This review of Center of the Sunlit Sky has a brief outline of the issues the 8th Karmapa took with Tsongkhapa's Madhyamaka, if anyone is interested.

http://www.bodhionline.org/ViewArticle.asp?id=65

Edited July 21, 2013 by Creation

[RongzomFan]

Tsongkhapa was one of those who came alone at a critical period and rejuvenated it

 

Which critical period are you talking about? There is nothing like that.

 

which is why he is regarded in such high regard.

 

He isn't held in high regard at all, except by Gelugpas.

[Creation]

He isn't held in high regard at all, except by Gelugpas.

Untrue. There is a tradition of viewing Tsongkhapa as inseparable from Guru Rinpoche, followed by such luminaries as the Dzogchen yogi Shabkar (author of Flight of the Garuda).

Edited July 21, 2013 by Creation

[RongzomFan]

Untrue. There is a tradition of viewing Tsongkhapa as inseparable from Guru Rinpoche, followed by such luminaries as the Dzogchen yogi Shakbar (author of Flight of the Garuda).

 

Reference?

[Creation]

Reference?

Life of Shabkar

To be fair, Shabkar was a Gelug monk before becoming a wandering Dzogchen yogi. But he didn't renounce his devotion to Tsongkhapa in doing so.

 

I've seen the connection between Tsongkhapa and Guru Rinpoche referenced in at least one other place, but I can't remember where.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Creation

[RongzomFan]

All I see in in you reference was that he was given a copy of Tsongkhapa's text by Pontsang Rinpoche

[Creation]

All I see in in you reference was that he was given a copy of Tsongkhapa's text by Pontsang Rinpoche

Sorry, I read it in a library over a year ago, so I can't give you a more exact reference. It is well worth a read though.

[RongzomFan]

HH Dalai Lama himself holds Tsongkhapa in high regard.

 

So it doesn't matter to me if another Gelugpa like Shakbar holds Tsongkhapa in high regard.