Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chen Mo w/ audio and video commentaries

[RongzomFan]

EDIT: This review of Center of the Sunlit Sky has a brief outline of the issues the 8th Karmapa took with Tsongkhapa's Madhyamaka, if anyone is interested.

http://www.bodhionline.org/ViewArticle.asp?id=65

 

Yes Center of the Sunlit Sky has in depth critique of Tsongkhapa's Madhyamaka.

[Jetsun]

 

 

He isn't held in high regard at all, except by Gelugpas.

In all my research about the only person I find who is highly critical of Tsongkhapa is you, nearly all others who are both experienced practitioners and scholars regard him very highly. Many debate subtle intricacies of his teaching but that is the same with all masters.

[C T]

He isn't held in high regard at all, except by Gelugpas.

Actually i think he is well-regarded by all Prasangika adherents.

 

Im curious to know of your personal leanings, whether its to Prasangika or Svatantrika.

[Creation]

Actually i think he is well-regarded by all Prasangika adherents.

 

Im curious to know of your personal leanings, whether its to Prasangika or Svatantrika.

One of the most controversial aspects of Tsongkhapa's Madhyamaka is the claim that Prasangika and Svatarntrika are two different views entirely, rather than two expositions of the Madhyamaka view. Sakyapas, following Gorampa, are very antipathic to Tsongkhapa, even thought the consider themselves Prasangikas in that they view Candrakirti as the highest expositor of Nagarjuna. Similarly, the Eighth Karmapa, Ju Mipham Rinpoche, and Gendun Chopel (of Kagyu, Nyingma, and Gelug respectively) all considered themselves Prasangikas but criticized Tsongkhapa's views.

[RongzomFan]

In all my research about the only person I find who is highly critical of Tsongkhapa is you, nearly all others who are both experienced practitioners and scholars regard him very highly. Many debate subtle intricacies of his teaching but that is the same with all masters.

 

That's because you ignore everything everyone posts.

 

Center of the Sunlit Sky has a detailed critique of Tsongkhapa by the Eight Karmapa.

 

Please reread the comments of Karl B., Sam van Schaik and Judith Simmer-Brown that both Creation and I posted.

 

Research Gorampa who called Tsongkhapa demon possessed.

[RongzomFan]

Actually i think he is well-regarded by all Prasangika adherents.

 

I almost fell out of my chair when I read this.

 

Have you heard of Gorampa, the Sakya scholar???

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=gbT01AXrmisC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Gorampa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E_7rUbGHNZer4AON94DgDw&ved=0CDgQuwUwAQ

Edited July 21, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Im curious to know of your personal leanings, whether its to Prasangika or Svatantrika.

 

As you know, there is no such thing as Prasangika or Svatantrika.

 

Buddhapalita used consequentialist arguments in a specific passage criticizing the Samkhyas. He was criticized by Bhavaviveka, who preferred autonomous arguments.

 

Buddhapalita was then defended by Candrakirti. That's all.

[Simple_Jack]

As you know, there is no such thing as Prasangika or Svatantrika.

 

Because these are Tibetan inventions.

[RongzomFan]

Because these are Tibetan inventions.

 

Yup.

[Simple_Jack]

Center of the Sunlit Sky has a detailed critique of Tsongkhapa by the Eight Karmapa.

 

Which is funny because he wrote a praise to him:

 

In Praise Of The Incomparable Tsongkhapa by Gyalwa Mikyo Dorje, the 8th Karmapa: http://resources.tsemtulku.com/prayers/deity-prayers/in-praise-of-the-incomparable-tsongkhapa.html

[Simple_Jack]

Yes those that worship the demon Dorje Shugden.

 

C'mon seriously? This is just a pathetic attempt on your part to discredit Tsongkhapa and his followers.

 

I know that you don't want other people "to be led astray" by Tsongkhapa's Madhyamaka, but you're seriously resorting to a statement like that? You can do better than that.

[Simple_Jack]

No he didn't. See quotes above.

 

Yes, if we take into account the tantric teachings he received from Nyingma, Kagyu, etc. He went all over Tibet learning and receiving teachings on sutra and tantra from teachers of all sects.

[Simple_Jack]

In all my research about the only person I find who is highly critical of Tsongkhapa is you, nearly all others who are both experienced practitioners and scholars regard him very highly. Many debate subtle intricacies of his teaching but that is the same with all masters.

 

Well, there were a lot of people who didn't agree with Tsongkhapa's interpretations of Madhyamaka. Though, there's more to the story of his reception among the Tibetans than what Alwayson is presenting (it's purposefully one dimensional because he's openly sectarian).

 

People are always going to have their preferences, but to present those preferences as an absolute condemnation, in this case, is an exercise in sectarian polemics. It's not the case that someone won't have a non-conceptual realization [of sunyata] by following Tsongkhapa's Madhyamaka:

 

Malcolm: "....You have also forgotten that when someone opined that one could not realize the meaning of Dzogchen if they held Tsongkhapa's point of view about "Prasangika" [Prasangika being a Tibetan invention, a term coined at Sangphu by Batsab Nyima Drag in the 12th century] I swiftly reminded them that both Jigme Lingpa and Shabkar upheld Tsongkhapa's interpretation of Prasangika." [http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=6731&sid=092bd6e44341c2668968141f3f95c235&start=80].

[Seeker of Wisdom]

So much Dharma available, and so many pointless scholarly debates about it...

 

Who cares about the history or minor philosophical points of Tsongkhapa and Gelugpa, if the practice of Gelugpa leads experientially to Buddhahood - which it does, as it follows the same principles of sila/samadhi/prajna found in all Buddhism?

 

If a tradition says something wrong but the practice of it leads to right realisation anyway, well, that's still a good tradition. And Gelugpa doesn't even say anything overtly wrong, even if you disagree with the really fine philosophical details.

[Simple_Jack]

So much Dharma available, and so many pointless scholarly debates about it...

 

Who cares about the history or minor philosophical points of Tsongkhapa and Gelugpa, if the practice of Gelugpa leads experientially to Buddhahood - which it does, as it follows the same principles of sila/samadhi/prajna found in all Buddhism?

 

If a tradition says something wrong but the practice of it leads to right realisation anyway, well, that's still a good tradition. And Gelugpa doesn't even say anything overtly wrong, even if you disagree with the really fine philosophical details.

 

The guy I quoted said this in the same thread:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=6731&start=100

 

Malcolm: "....If you are going to follow what some Tibetan says, fine. Pick one scholar. Follow their point of view. Unless you are prepared or capable of reading the scholars with which they choose to disagree, please do not jump on Team Goramapa, Team Tsongkhapa, Team Karmapa or Team Mipham. I have made that mistake in the past. I now clearly recognize that it is an error to jump on the bandwagon of Post-Indian Madhyamaka developments. It is one thing to try to understand the intellectual history of Tibetan Madhyamaka --that can be interesting for some people. It is quite another to jump on the bandwagon of this or that school -- then this just becomes scholastic politics...

 

...What is meaningless is the endless games of dialectics [in which I have also been playing] where each school and scholar triumphantly asserts that only they have the real key to Nagarjauna's intention. It is total nonsense.

 

What we do not need to be transmitted to the West is the scholastic environment of competitive sectarianism. This helps no one's practice at all..."

[RongzomFan]

C'mon seriously? This is just a pathetic attempt on your part to discredit Tsongkhapa and his followers.

 

Wasn't Shugden a mainstream Gelugpa practice?

 

Aren't Shugdenpas rabid Tsongkhapa-ites?

[RongzomFan]

The guy I quoted said this in the same thread:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=6731&start=100

 

Malcolm: "....If you are going to follow what some Tibetan says, fine. Pick one scholar. Follow their point of view. Unless you are prepared or capable of reading the scholars with which they choose to disagree, please do not jump on Team Goramapa, Team Tsongkhapa, Team Karmapa or Team Mipham. I have made that mistake in the past. I now clearly recognize that it is an error to jump on the bandwagon of Post-Indian Madhyamaka developments. It is one thing to try to understand the intellectual history of Tibetan Madhyamaka --that can be interesting for some people. It is quite another to jump on the bandwagon of this or that school -- then this just becomes scholastic politics...

 

...What is meaningless is the endless games of dialectics [in which I have also been playing] where each school and scholar triumphantly asserts that only they have the real key to Nagarjauna's intention. It is total nonsense.

 

What we do not need to be transmitted to the West is the scholastic environment of competitive sectarianism. This helps no one's practice at all..."

 

 

This is exactly what I've been saying. Stick to the original Indian texts.

[RongzomFan]

Yes, if we take into account the tantric teachings he received from Nyingma, Kagyu, etc. He went all over Tibet learning and receiving teachings on sutra and tantra from teachers of all sects.

 

 

So did everyone else in Tibet.

 

Tsongkhapa did not receive that many teachings at all. You can easily count the teachers he studied with.

 

Tsongkhapa did not receive Dzogchen for example.

[RongzomFan]

Gorampa said Tsongkhapa dialogued with a demon and ripped apart Tsongkhapa's "Madhyamaka".

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=gbT01AXrmisC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Gorampa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E_7rUbGHNZer4AON94DgDw&ved=0CDgQuwUwAQ

 

"Even as serious a scholar as Go rams pa cannot resist suggesting, for example, that Tsong kha pa's supposed conversations with Manjusri may have been a dialogue with a demon instead."

Edited July 21, 2013 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

Wasn't Shugden a mainstream Gelugpa practice?

 

Aren't Shugdenpas rabid Tsongkhapa-ites?

 

This is a non-sequitur.

 

Tsongkhapa did not receive Dzogchen for example.

 

It's a possibility that he received Dzogchen teachings from one of his Nyingma teachers, but this is irrelevant since he didn't teach Dzogchen.

 

Gorampa said Tsongkhapa dialogued with a demon and ripped apart Tsongkhapa's "Madhyamaka".

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=gbT01AXrmisC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Gorampa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E_7rUbGHNZer4AON94DgDw&ved=0CDgQuwUwAQ

 

"Even as serious a scholar as Go rams pa cannot resist suggesting, for example, that Tsong kha pa's supposed conversations with Manjusri may have been a dialogue with a demon instead."

 

Not surprising since he's one of Tsongkhapa's detractors representing the Sakyapas. Obviously, not everyone felt the same about Tsongkhapa.

 

Feel free to propagate the sectarian squabbles of Tibetan polemics; I'm done with this thread.

[RongzomFan]

Feel free to propagate the sectarian squabbles of Tibetan polemics; I'm done with this thread.

 

I merely quoted verbatim from an academic book which indicated that Gorampa thought Tsongkhapa was a demon possessed crazy person.

[RongzomFan]

"Gorampa, in the Lta ba ngan sel (Eliminating the Erroneous View), accuses Tsongkhapa of being "seized by demons" (bdud kyis zin pa) and in the Lta ba'i shan 'byed (Distinguishing Views) decries him as a "nihilistic Madhyamika" (dbu ma chad lta ba) who is spreading "demonic words" (bdud kyi tshig)."

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=u7ZtE1bhtRYC&pg=PA125&dq=Gorampa,+in+the+Lta+ba+ngan+sel+(Eliminating+the+Erroneous+View),+accuses+Tsongkhapa+of+being+%22seized+by+demons%22+(bdud+kyis+zin+pa)+and+in+the+Lta+ba'i+shan+'byed+(Distinguishing+Views)+decries+him+as+a+%22nihilistic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Tl3sUanIL6L64AOnxoDYDQ&ved=0CDAQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Gorampa%2C%20in%20the%20Lta%20ba%20ngan%20sel%20(Eliminating%20the%20Erroneous%20View)%2C%20accuses%20Tsongkhapa%20of%20being%20%22seized%20by%20demons%22%20(bdud%20kyis%20zin%20pa)%20and%20in%20the%20Lta%20ba'i%20shan%20'byed%20(Distinguishing%20Views)%20decries%20him%20as%20a%20%22nihilistic&f=false

Edited July 21, 2013 by alwayson

[C T]

I merely quoted verbatim from an academic book which indicated that Gorampa thought Tsongkhapa was a demon possessed crazy person.

Your attempts are at sensationalizing this whole 'What Gorampa said..." thing says quite a bit.

 

Based on the writings of Jamgon Mipham in 'The Adornment of The Middle Way' it shows very clearly that your views regarding Tsongkhapa/Prasangika/Svatantrika are all wrong.

[RongzomFan]

Based on the writings of Jamgon Mipham in 'The Adornment of The Middle Way' it shows very clearly that your views regarding Tsongkhapa/Prasangika/Svatantrika are all wrong.

 

In what way are they wrong? Prasangika and Svatantrika is a Tibetan invention.

 

Buddhapalita used consequentialist arguments against Samkhyas in a specific passage:

 

"Entities do not arise from their own intrinsic nature, because their arising would be pointless and because they would arise endlessly. For entities that [already] exist as their own intrinsic nature, there is no need to arise again. If they were to arise despite existing [already], there would be no time when they do not arise; [but] that is also not asserted [by the Enumerators]. "

 

Bhavaviveka criticized this manner of argumentation.

 

Candrakirti then defended Buddhapalita in the Prasannapadā.

[RongzomFan]

Your attempts are at sensationalizing this whole 'What Gorampa said..." thing says quite a bit.

 

You tell me then....what did Gorampa mean by this stuff:

 

"Gorampa, in the Lta ba ngan sel (Eliminating the Erroneous View), accuses Tsongkhapa of being "seized by demons" (bdud kyis zin pa) and in the Lta ba'i shan 'byed (Distinguishing Views) decries him as a "nihilistic Madhyamika" (dbu ma chad lta ba) who is spreading "demonic words" (bdud kyi tshig)."

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=u7ZtE1bhtRYC&pg=PA125&dq=Gorampa,+in+the+Lta+ba+ngan+sel+(Eliminating+the+Erroneous+View),+accuses+Tsongkhapa+of+being+%22seized+by+demons%22+(bdud+kyis+zin+pa)+and+in+the+Lta+ba#v=onepage&q=Gorampa%2C%20in%20the%20Lta%20ba%20ngan%20sel%20(Eliminating%20the%20Erroneous%20View)%2C%20accuses%20Tsongkhapa%20of%20being%20%22seized%20by%20demons%22%20(bdud%20kyis%20zin%20pa)%20and%20in%20the%20Lta%20ba&f=false

Edited July 22, 2013 by alwayson