Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chen Mo w/ audio and video commentaries

[Jetsun]

Research more.

 

I'm not really that concerned, I trust the Dalai Lama's research and interpretation on this matter and he fully endorses Tsongkhapa's teachings. I have studied some of his works and have no problem with them, long scholarly debates about such matters seem like a waste of time. If what he says doesn't match up with your own personal experience then there is a problem, but most of it just seems to be debate for intellectual pursuits or for point scoring and that is of no concern to me.

 

It seems to be a strong part of your personal identity to define yourself against Tsongkhapa, but I would be careful as that is a potential obstruction and can be just another way to try to solidify your identity by defining it against something else.

[RongzomFan]

And what about the views of Longchenpa, Atisa and everyone else who lived before Tsongkhapa?

[Jetsun]

And what about the views of Longchenpa, Atisa and everyone else who lived before Tsongkhapa?

 

What about them? just because one author says Tsongkhapa created something new of his own interpretation it doesn't make it true

[RongzomFan]

What about them? just because one author says Tsongkhapa created something new of his own interpretation it doesn't make it true

 

Now, what are you trying to say here exactly?

 

Everyone acknowledges Tsongkhapa created something new including the Gelugpas and HH Dalai Lama.

[Jetsun]

Now, what are you trying to say here exactly?

 

Everyone acknowledges Tsongkhapa created something new including the Gelugpas and HH Dalai Lama.

 

I don't know what you mean by something new. Periodically masters come and rejuvinate the Dharma or emphasise different aspects of the teaching most appropriate for the time and place they are teaching, but at the core they are still teaching the same Dharma and not something new, its just the greatest masters teach with skilful means. In that regard to me he seems completely consistent with other masters before him and a lot of the time references them when making his points.

[RongzomFan]

"All critics of Tsongkhapa, including the Eight Karmapa, agree that many features of his Centrism are novelties that are not found in any Indian sources and see this as a major flaw." - Karl B.

[RongzomFan]

I don't know what you mean by something new. Periodically masters come and rejuvinate the Dharma or emphasise different aspects of the teaching most appropriate for the time and place they are teaching, but at the core they are still teaching the same Dharma and not something new, its just the greatest masters teach with skilful means. In that regard to me he seems completely consistent with other masters before him and a lot of the time references them when making his points.

 

Except none of this applies to Tsongkhapa.

[RongzomFan]

Geshe Thupten Jinpa, the Dalai Lama's translator, fully admits Tsongkhapa is a deviant who did not honor the existing tradition:

 

"The traditional Geluk understanding of these deviations in Tsongkhapa's thought attributes the development of his distinct reading of Madhyamaka philosophy to a mystical communion he is reported to have had with the bodhisattva Manjusri........It is interesting that the tradition Tsongkhapa is claiming to honour is, in a strict sense, not the existing system in Tibet; rather, it appears to be in the tradition of Manjusri as revealed in a mystic vision!"

Edited July 25, 2013 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

I actually agree with what Lopon Namdrol (aka. Malcolm) says about taking a more constructive approach to comparing the different Tibetan commentaries on Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti's Madhyamaka:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=6731&start=100

 

"....I am attempting to encourage people to take a more constructive approach: instead of saying, as I have many times in the past, "Tsongkhapa was wrong to say that we may leave off the second two alternatives of the four extremes because they are double negatives", it is better think long and hard why he might give such an opinion. Rather than immediately assume that Gorampa is wrong in asserting that Candrakiriti accepts things like svasamvedana conventionally, it is better to ask yourself why he might assert that. These great scholars almost always have very solid reasons for saying what they do about this and that thing, and the thing is, we have to really question ourselves if we think something they said is wrong. That is my point."

Edited February 10, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

---

Edited September 9, 2013 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

I even cited the Dalai Lama's own translator.

 

The Dalai Lama is the head of the Gelugpa school which traces back to Tsongkhapa.

Edited July 25, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Noo...NOOOOO!!

 

You don't like scholars or the Dalai Lama's own translator?

 

For example:

 

1. Geshe Thupten Jinpa, the Dalai Lama's translator, fully admits Tsongkhapa is a deviant who did not honor the existing tradition:

 

"The traditional Geluk understanding of these deviations in Tsongkhapa's thought attributes the development of his distinct reading of Madhyamaka philosophy to a mystical communion he is reported to have had with the bodhisattva Manjusri........It is interesting that the tradition Tsongkhapa is claiming to honour is, in a strict sense, not the existing system in Tibet; rather, it appears to be in the tradition of Manjusri as revealed in a mystic vision!"

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=2LhdnDp118oC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=It+is+interesting+that+the+tradition+Tsongkhapa+is+claiming+to+honour+is,+in+a+strict+sense,+not+the+existing+system+in+Tibet;+rather,+it+appears+to+be+in+the+tradition+of+Manjusri+as+revealed+in+a+mystic+vision&source=bl&ots=S692C899ki&sig=X0qtjc4iajoL-Lm4PL6LtKKCYrs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WqbuUdz2JNGl4AOl8YGwAg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=It%20is%20interesting%20that%20the%20tradition%20Tsongkhapa%20is%20claiming%20to%20honour%20is%2C%20in%20a%20strict%20sense%2C%20not%20the%20existing%20system%20in%20Tibet%3B%20rather%2C%20it%20appears%20to%20be%20in%20the%20tradition%20of%20Manjusri%20as%20revealed%20in%20a%20mystic%20vision&f=false

 

2. Gorampa said Tsongkhapa was seized by demons and spread demonic words. He also did a detailed substantive critique of Tsongkhapa's "Madhyamaka."

 

"Gorampa, in the Lta ba ngan sel (Eliminating the Erroneous View), accuses Tsongkhapa of being "seized by demons" (bdud kyis zin pa) and in the Lta ba'i shan 'byed (Distinguishing Views) decries him as a "nihilistic Madhyamika" (dbu ma chad lta ba) who is spreading "demonic words" (bdud kyi tshig)."

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=u7ZtE1bhtRYC&pg=PA125&dq=Gorampa,+in+the+Lta+ba+ngan+sel+(Eliminating+the+Erroneous+View),+accuses+Tsongkhapa+of+being+%22seized+by+demons%22+(bdud+kyis+zin+pa)+and+in+the+Lta+ba#v=onepage&q=Gorampa%2C%20in%20the%20Lta%20ba%20ngan%20sel%20(Eliminating%20the%20Erroneous%20View)%2C%20accuses%20Tsongkhapa%20of%20being%20%22seized%20by%20demons%22%20(bdud%20kyis%20zin%20pa)%20and%20in%20the%20Lta%20ba&f=false

 

"Even as serious a scholar as Go rams pa cannot resist suggesting, for example, that Tsong kha pa's supposed conversations with Manjusri may have been a dialogue with a demon instead."

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=gbT01AXrmisC&pg=PA17&dq=Even+as+serious+a+scholar+as+Go+rams+pa+cannot+resist+suggesting,+for+example,+that+Tsong+kha+pa's+supposed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yAfyUfHmL5jb4AOq5IDQDw&ved=0CD0QuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Even%20as%20serious%20a%20scholar%20as%20Go%20rams%20pa%20cannot%20resist%20suggesting%2C%20for%20example%2C%20that%20Tsong%20kha%20pa's%20supposed&f=false

 

3. Karl Brunnholzl's Center of the Sunlit Sky indicates that Tsongkhapa's interpretation of Madhyamaka is not consistent with any Indian text or the other Tibetan schools. Furthermore it has contaminated western scholarship.

 

"First, with a few exceptions, the majority of books or articles on Madhyamaka by Western - particularly North American - scholars is based on the explanations of the Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism. Deliberately or not, many of these Western presentations give the impression that the Gelugpa system is more or less equivalent to Tibetan Buddhism as such and that this school's way of presenting Madhyamaka is the standard or even the only way to explain this system, which has led to the still widely prevailing assumption that this is actually the case. From the perspective of Indian and Tibetan Buddhism in general, nothing could be more wrong. In fact, the peculiar Gelugpa version of Madhaymaka is a minority position in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, since its uncommon features are neither found in any Indian text nor accepted by any of the other Tibetan schools."

 

"All critics of Tsongkhapa, including the Eighth Karmapa, agree that many features of his Centrism are novelties that are not found in any Indian sources and see this as a major flaw."

 

4. Tsongkhapa and Gelugpas are weirdo radicals, according to Sam van Schaik's basic history book, Tibet, A History:

 

"......Tsongkhapa was coming to realize that he wanted to create something new, not necessarily a school, but at least a new formulation of the Buddhist Path."

 

"........with Tsongkhapa's own personal interpretation of the philosophy of the Madhyamaka."

 

"As Khedrup and later followers of Tsongkhapa hit back at accusations like these, they defined their own philosophical tradition, and this went a long way to drawing a line in the sand between the Gandenpas and the broader Sakya tradition."

Edited September 9, 2013 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

For anyone that's interested, here's some links:

 

1. A PDF of Tsongkhapa's In Praise Of Dependent Origination trans. by Geshe Thupten Jinpa: http://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/In%20Praise%20of%20Dependent%20Origination.pdf

 

2. Tsongkhapa's The Great Treatise On The Stages Of The Path To Enlightenment on scribd:

 

Vol 1 - http://www.scribd.com/doc/89692023/The-Great-Treatise-on-the-Stages-of-the-Path-to-Enlightenment-Volume-1

 

Vol 2 - http://www.scribd.com/doc/93886729/the-great-treatise-on-the-stages-of-the-path-to-enlightenment-volume-2

 

Vol 3 - http://www.scribd.com/doc/93887758/the-great-treatise-on-the-stages-of-the-path-to-enlightenment-volume-3

 

3. A short bio of Tsongkhapa's w/ audio from the berzin archives website: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/approaching_buddhism/teachers/lineage_masters/life_of_tsongkhapa/life_of_tsongkhapa.html

Edited August 31, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

 

But you can follow Tsongkhapa's system of Madhyamaka and practice Mahamudra of Dzogchen, like the Dalai Lamas and Shabkar, because as far as Mahamudra and Dzogchen are concerned, Madhyamaka is conceptual from the start so a more conceptual presentation like Tsongkhapa's is not a problem.

 

Don't forget that Lopon Malcolm pointed out Jigme Lingpa (regarded as one of the most important figures in the Nyingma lineage), the terton responsible for revealing the Longchen Nyinthig teachings of Dzogchen, upheld Tsongkhapa's Madhyamaka:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=6731&sid=092bd6e44341c2668968141f3f95c235&start=80

 

Malcolm: "....You have also forgotten that when someone opined that one could not realize the meaning of Dzogchen if they held Tsongkhapa's point of view about "Prasangika" [Prasangika being a Tibetan invention, a term coined at Sangphu by Batsab Nyima Drag in the 12th century] I swiftly reminded them that both Jigme Lingpa and Shabkar upheld Tsongkhapa's interpretation of Prasangika."

[RongzomFan]

Don't forget that Lopon Malcolm pointed out Jigme Lingpa (regarded as one of the most important figures in the Nyingma lineage), the terton responsible for revealing the Longchen Nyinthig teachings of Dzogchen, upheld Tsongkhapa's Madhyamaka:

 

Jigme Linpga hated the Gelugpa with a passion, since they criticized Dzogchen.

[RongzomFan]

For anyone that's interested, here's some links:

 

1. A PDF of Tsongkhapa's In Praise Of Dependent Origination trans. by Geshe Thupten Jinpa: http://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/In%20Praise%20of%20Dependent%20Origination.pdf

 

Geshe Thupten Jinpa, the Dalai Lama's translator, is the one who said Tsongkhapa did not honour the existing tradition in Tibet.

 

"It is interesting that the tradition Tsongkhapa is claiming to honour is, in a strict sense, not the existing system in Tibet; rather, it appears to be in the tradition of Manjusri as revealed in a mystic vision!"

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=2LhdnDp118oC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=It+is+interesting+that+the+tradition+Tsongkhapa+is+claiming+to+honour+is,+in+a+strict+sense,+not+the+existing+system+in+Tibet;+rather,+it+appears+to+be+in+the+tradition+of+Manjusri+as+revealed+in+a+mystic+vision&source=bl&ots=S692C899ki&sig=X0qtjc4iajoL-Lm4PL6LtKKCYrs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WqbuUdz2JNGl4AOl8YGwAg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=It%20is%20interesting%20that%20the%20tradition%20Tsongkhapa%20is%20claiming%20to%20honour%20is%2C%20in%20a%20strict%20sense%2C%20not%20the%20existing%20system%20in%20Tibet%3B%20rather%2C%20it%20appears%20to%20be%20in%20the%20tradition%20of%20Manjusri%20as%20revealed%20in%20a%20mystic%20vision&f=false

Edited July 24, 2013 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

I don't know anything about that. Even if he upheld it, to what extent did he upheld it?

 

And even if he upheld it as the upmost Madhyamaka system, the Nyingma put Atiyoga ahead of sutra.

 

For example, Dudjom Rinpoche believes in other-emptiness "Great Madhyamaka", but only at the sutra level. That's my understanding at least.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

For the sake of argument, lets say Jigme Lingpa loved Tsongkhapa's "Madhyamaka".

 

Dudjom Rinpoche loved Other-Emptiness, and even then only at the sutrayana level.

 

And Rongzom hated all Madhyamaka.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=nVM2hQezgRQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Establishing+appearances+as+divine&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oPDvUcDqO4TQ9ASd7YDgDQ&ved=0CC8QuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Establishing%20appearances%20as%20divine&f=false

Edited October 27, 2013 by RongzomFan

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

I'm not really that concerned, I trust the Dalai Lama's research and interpretation on this matter and he fully endorses Tsongkhapa's teachings.

 

 

Geshe Thupten Jinpa, the Dalai Lama's translator, is the one who said Tsongkhapa did not honor the existing tradition in Tibet.

 

"It is interesting that the tradition Tsongkhapa is claiming to honour is, in a strict sense, not the existing system in Tibet; rather, it appears to be in the tradition of Manjusri as revealed in a mystic vision!"

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=2LhdnDp118oC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=It+is+interesting+that+the+tradition+Tsongkhapa+is+claiming+to+honour+is,+in+a+strict+sense,+not+the+existing+system+in+Tibet;+rather,+it+appears+to+be+in+the+tradition+of+Manjusri+as+revealed+in+a+mystic+vision&source=bl&ots=S692C899ki&sig=X0qtjc4iajoL-Lm4PL6LtKKCYrs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WqbuUdz2JNGl4AOl8YGwAg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=It%20is%20interesting%20that%20the%20tradition%20Tsongkhapa%20is%20claiming%20to%20honour%20is%2C%20in%20a%20strict%20sense%2C%20not%20the%20existing%20system%20in%20Tibet%3B%20rather%2C%20it%20appears%20to%20be%20in%20the%20tradition%20of%20Manjusri%20as%20revealed%20in%20a%20mystic%20vision&f=false

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

Geshe Thupten Jinpa, the Dalai Lama's translator:

 

"The traditional Geluk understanding of these deviations in Tsongkhapa's thought attributes the development of his distinct reading of Madhyamaka philosophy to a mystical communion he is reported to have had with the bodhisattva Manjusri."

 

End of thread.