Tibetan Buddhism....Will the REAL Dharma please stand up?

[stefos]

Hi everyone,

 

Looking at the "Tibetan Buddhist" posts here is showing me one thing:

 

Tibetan Buddhism needs to be clearer insofar as what different schools believe.

 

Furthermore, Many Tibetan Buddhists seem to know nothing of what Shakyamuni Buddha taught insofar as the Pali texts are concerned.

 

I for one have never seen any Tibetan Buddhist talk in depth about the Nikayas!

 

It's either transformation as a deity or a "Dorje Shugden" problem or just a general sense of weirdness that I've experienced around Tibetan Buddhist Americans anyway.

 

What ever happened to the 4 noble truths, 8 fold path, Anapanasati, Vipassana, etc.?

 

Bring it back Tibetan Buddhists and state what you believe in clear terms.

 

Stefos

[C T]

Since you have expressed such interest, you are now gifted with many hours of Dalai Lama's teachings (with moving pictures too, just so it doesn't get boring) which covers all the principle aspects of the various stages along the Mahayana path, from the lesser scope to the greater. (bearing in mind lesser and greater are only functionary in terms of usage).

 

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stages+of+the+path&oq=stages+of+the+path&gs_l=youtube.3...65227.87906.0.88365.40.31.5.3.4.7.203.3595.14j15j2.31.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.Zea7prR6qq0

 

 

Please take your time to absorb all the information, which will then hopefully put your mind to ease, and you will not have to be tormented again by what you think is lacking in tibetan buddhism and basically your own interpretation of it.

[Apech]

Hi everyone,

 

Looking at the "Tibetan Buddhist" posts here is showing me one thing:

 

Tibetan Buddhism needs to be clearer insofar as what different schools believe.

There is a lot of information available both in books and online about the four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism. If you spend some time reading you will get a sense of the different teachings. Your focus on belief is a bit misguided though so I suggest you focus on different styles of practice and interpretations of philosophy. A lot of Lamas are lineage holders from more than one school so focussing on the differences is sometimes not the key issue. My Lama teaches both Kagyu and Sakha lineages for instance.

 

Furthermore, Many Tibetan Buddhists seem to know nothing of what Shakyamuni Buddha taught insofar as the Pali texts are concerned

I for one have never seen any Tibetan Buddhist talk in depth about the Nikayas!

The Pali Canon including the Nikayas is the focus of Therevada buddhism.

 

It's either transformation as a deity or a "Dorje Shugden" problem or just a general sense of weirdness that I've experienced around Tibetan Buddhist Americans anyway.

The Dorje Shugden issue is difficult to understand unless you understand tantric practice and how it works - so for an outsider it is best to avoid this issue I think in the sense that you will struggle to understand why HHDL considers it important enough to make his pronouncements. It is a focus for a breakaway gelugpa sect called the New Kadampa which in itself might tell you that it is a fringe issue and the confusion generated might indicate something about why HHDL has concerns.

 

What ever happened to the 4 noble truths, 8 fold path, Anapanasati, Vipassana, etc.?

All included and taught as far as my training/teaching experience goes. Perhaps the stress on these things is a little less than other Buddhist schools but it is all there.

 

Bring it back Tibetan Buddhists and state what you believe in clear terms.

 

Stefos

 

 

If you feel connected to or drawn towards Tibetan Buddhism then you need to study for a while under an authentic teacher. Then when you have assimilated enough of the path you can make an assessment as to whether to go further. I don't think you will gain much from standing on the sidelines and wondering about this and that.

[Simple_Jack]

 

I for one have never seen any Tibetan Buddhist talk in depth about the Nikayas!

 

That's because the Kangyur has translations of the Chinese Agamas.

[Simple_Jack]

It's ironic that the Shugdenpa's refer to themselves as the "New Kadampa", since that term's use is accredited by the Gelugpa's to refer to themselves.

[Apech]

It's ironic that the Shugdenpa's refer to themselves as the "New Kadampa", since that term's use is accredited by the Gelugpa's to refer to themselves.

 

yes I suppose (but I'm not sure) it's some kind of reference back to Atisha ... perhaps? in the sense his was the Kadam and this is the new one ...

[Simple_Jack]

yes I suppose (but I'm not sure) it's some kind of reference back to Atisha ... perhaps? in the sense his was the Kadam and this is the new one ...

 

Yeah, Kadampa refers to the lineage of Atisha.

[RongzomFan]

The NKT organization considers themselves as the true Gelugpas, which in turn considers themselves as the true Kadampas.

[Creation]

What ever happened to the 4 noble truths, 8 fold path, Anapanasati, Vipassana, etc.?

 

Bring it back Tibetan Buddhists and state what you believe in clear terms.

Those are definitely still in Tibetan Buddhism. They are just not things that people around here like to bicker about

[rex]

What ever happened to the 4 noble truths, 8 fold path, Anapanasati, Vipassana, etc.?

 

Bring it back Tibetan Buddhists and state what you believe in clear terms.

 

Stefos

 

It's all there with the Four Thoughts, Refuge and Bodhichitta, the Four Immeasurables, the Six Paramitas, and Base, Path and Fruit. Howzabout checking out the Precious Vase?

 

Those are definitely still in Tibetan Buddhism. They are just not things that people around here like to bicker about

 

: )

[konchog uma]

If you want to understand Tibetan Buddhism's relationship to your own personal concept of traditional Buddhadharma, i suggest reading Lotus-Born: The Life Story of Padmasambhava by Yeshe Tsogyal. People who are looking for "truth" often have a hard time relating to Buddhism because there are so many different variations that the short-sighted response is "well they can't all be right! so some of them are wrong!! aaa" but in reality the dharma is flexible, and includes a wide range of views and practices aimed at increasing ones direct relationship with the present, or things as they are, rather than being aimed at some kind of truth with a capital T. In other words, just because you don't understand something doesnt mean its not the real dharma. Its pretentious to think so. I hope you make time to read that book, its great.

 

 

[stefos]

Since you have expressed such interest, you are now gifted with many hours of Dalai Lama's teachings (with moving pictures too, just so it doesn't get boring) which covers all the principle aspects of the various stages along the Mahayana path, from the lesser scope to the greater. (bearing in mind lesser and greater are only functionary in terms of usage).

 

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stages+of+the+path&oq=stages+of+the+path&gs_l=youtube.3...65227.87906.0.88365.40.31.5.3.4.7.203.3595.14j15j2.31.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.Zea7prR6qq0

 

 

Please take your time to absorb all the information, which will then hopefully put your mind to ease, and you will not have to be tormented again by what you think is lacking in tibetan buddhism and basically your own interpretation of it.

 

I admit...I don't know the history of Tibetan Buddhism but I do know that the Tibetan tipitaka is culled from the Chinese works.

 

I know about Guru Padmasambhava & Atisha & Jenongpa (Jegongpa?)...also.

 

I know about the "new schools" or Gelug, Sakya, & Kagyu...and the old school "Nyingma" and Bon also.

 

I'm aware of Mahamudra & Dzogchen as well.

 

Beyond that...I don't know the nitty gritty of the Tibetan Buddhist schemas, if you will.

 

If you feel connected to or drawn towards Tibetan Buddhism then you need to study for a while under an authentic teacher. Then when you have assimilated enough of the path you can make an assessment as to whether to go further. I don't think you will gain much from standing on the sidelines and wondering about this and that.

 

I don't "stand on the sidelines."

 

I have received transmission from CNN Rinpoche actually and have had a number of retreats with him present at Tsegyalgar East.

 

I'm not ignorant....I'm merely asking about "Why all the traditions in Tibet & why can't there be an easy way of understanding it."

 

That's all!

Stefos

 

That's because the Kangyur has translations of the Chinese Agamas.

 

Well, what is more accurate? The Chinese Agamas or the Pali Nikayas?

 

To me the Nikayas are.

 

Stefos

[Creation]

I just realized that by "Tibetan Buddhists" you mean "Westerners following Tibetan Buddhism". I thought you meant actual Tibetans.

[Creation]

I admit...I don't know the history of Tibetan Buddhism

...

I'm not ignorant....I'm merely asking about "Why all the traditions in Tibet & why can't there be an easy way of understanding it."

The key to the question in the second line is the first line. Tibet inherited the entire spectrum of Mahayana as it developed over more than a thousand years in India, including the voluminous scholarship of the scholar monks at Nalanda unviersity, and all various special bodhisattva trainings and lower and higher tantras. That's a lot of stuff. And all this came in waves and was combined together in different ways at different times by different lineage masters. That's why it's complicated and hard to understand.

 

Most westerners following Tibetan Buddhism probably don't have the slightest clue about most of this. Should they? In Tibet the monks had to learn all this stuff, but the lay people didn't.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Creation

[RongzomFan]

Tibet inherited the entire spectrum of Mahayana as it developed over more than a thousand years in China

 

what you talking about?

[RongzomFan]

I admit...I don't know the history of Tibetan Buddhism

 

http://www.amazon.com/Indian-Esoteric-Buddhism-History-Movement/dp/8120819918

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Renaissance-Tantric-Buddhism-Rebirth/dp/0231134711

[Creation]

what you talking about?

Good catch, I meant India. I edited the original post.

[Jetsun]

Most of it originates from Nalanda University in India where masters like Nagarjuna and Shantideva taught.

[Apech]

I don't "stand on the sidelines."

 

I have received transmission from CNN Rinpoche actually and have had a number of retreats with him present at Tsegyalgar East.

 

I'm not ignorant....I'm merely asking about "Why all the traditions in Tibet & why can't there be an easy way of understanding it."

 

That's all!

Stefos

 

Didn't they give you any instructions on what and how to study? There are plenty of books by CNN and plenty of books on Tibetan Buddhism generally. I didn't say you were ignorant ... the Buddhist path is usually seen as having three aspects morality, study and practice. The study allows you to give context to the transmission and in particular the 'view' which will be expressed slightly differently in different traditions. If you are concerned about why there are different traditions it is to do with the richness of the dharma in meeting the needs of a wide variety of people.

[Jetsun]

The Dalai Lama recently published a book summarising his interpretation of the entire path of all of Tibetan Buddhism http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1401926622 I learned quite a lot from it where all the different aspects and paths fit in with each other, it is quite complicated so I'm not surprised many are bewildered by it all.

[C T]

I admit...I don't know the history of Tibetan Buddhism

 

I don't know the nitty gritty of the Tibetan Buddhist schemas, if you will.

 

 

Stefos

The history of Tibetan Buddhism can be gleaned from the www.

 

As for the details of the different make-up of the various Yanas and how they compare to each other, may i ask why is that of such vitalness to your path? Are you planning on becoming a buddhist scholar or academic fellow on east asian religion?

 

What is your end motivation? Liberation or knowledge, or both? If its liberation, then the nitty gritty may sometimes hinder more than help.

 

Not that accumulating knowledge is trivial, but the approach towards it, the attitude, commitment to one path (that of the Bodhisattva), faith in one's guru, and moral support to and from the holy sangha are other attributes which lend progress, even more so than the mere gathering of knowledge.

 

There are numerous accounts of very common people in Tibet, most of them peasants or wanderers, who attained the rainbow body -- this is due to their enduring faith and the ability to sustain devotion to Guru and also simple practices, for example, many of them don't do anything other than recite the Mani millions of times. Its hard to fathom how this works, but imagine the power generated in the mind after doing that.

[RongzomFan]

Most of it originates from Nalanda University in India where masters like Nagarjuna and Shantideva taught.

 

Just as much comes from Vikramshila University. For example we have centuries of commentary on the Cakrasamvara tantra from there. Atisha was from Vikramshila, etc.

[Simple_Jack]

Well, what is more accurate? The Chinese Agamas or the Pali Nikayas?

 

To me the Nikayas are.

 

Really? Are you selectively choosing what information to receive and retain?

 

Do you seriously not remember what I posted in this thread?: http://thetaobums.com/topic/28497-the-skeptical-buddhistcritical-thinking-buddhism/?p=446717

 

It doesn't matter, there's a team of translators who are starting to translate the Chinese Agamas into English (if you care enough to read it).