Failed Attempt

[Marblehead]

Well, my first attempt to do a Chuang Tzu study failed but I think it only proper to give Chuang Tzu the attention and credit he deserves for what he did to build upon Lao Tzu's work.

 

I am open for suggestions as to how we could go about another attempt of a study of his work. If you are interested in doing the study and have an idea as to how we can present it please let me know in this thread.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

[rene]

Which aspects of the previous study were a failure?

[Marblehead]

Which aspects of the previous study were a failure?

Well, although I had no complaints I also had very little participation. I feel that the way I presented the chapters was just too much reading for most to take the time to read them even though I did break the stories down into as small segments as I possiblly could and still present the story and the concept.

 

The individual stories are fairly long but unless the entire story is read in one sitting one would likely miss the concept that was being presented.

 

What I would like to do is make my initial posts as short as possible so that read time will be much less and more likely to be read by more members.

 

I had thoughts of posting the concept presented in each story and then add the actual text if a discussion needed specifics from the story. Of course, that would take a lot of time on my part and then I would be presenting only my understanding of the story and what "I" got out of it. Here I would need direct feedback from one or more other members to keep me straight.

 

Lin Yutang did a really neat thing in his "The Wisdom Of Lao Tzu" where he translated the 81 chapters and then presented sections of "The Chuang Tzu" that built on each chapter if there was any. (There are some things in the TTC that Chuang Tzu never spoke to.)

 

Anyhow, any ideas for how I could go about the study would be greatly appreciated.

[somtingwong]

What joke, Marblehead?

[rene]

Marblehead, hi

I think we cant influence what TTB folks may or may not be interested in; most here are more into energetic practices it seems, yes? Something for everyone!

For those interested in the texts, especially the earlier available ones like LZ and ZZ, the manner in which the study was originally presented was pretty good, I thought. Unlike the structure of The Laozi's 81 'poems' of which each can easily be done in whole, Zhuang Zi's chapters need to be done in paragraphs, with the 'themes' of the paragraphs kept together. From my read, you made the divisions within the chapters in a logical manner, and if any consistency or 'thread' was needed to tie the internals of a single chapter together to make an overall point... was that addressed? Likely it was, you're pretty thorough.

I like your idea about discussing the "concepts" of each chapter, but maybe instead of making new topics - start with the existing first chapter, make a new post of what (your) idea of meaning, etc, is - and we could all easily start from there. I'll join in, but only if you want, as you recall my ideas about ZZ are heavily influenced by LZ.

 

warm regards

[Stosh]

Put it in the forefront rather than in textual studies and maybe itll get more play ?

Why segregate Chuang's taoist text out of the main discussion area?

It is CENTRAL to Taoism , not some offshoot subject of esoteric value.

 

Location location location.

 

For structural purposes it might be possible to leave the thing out in the main area a specified period of time , and if the thread gets too long or falls asleep , it gets relegated back to the shelf and a new bit begun.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Stosh

[rene]

Put it in the forefront rather than in textual studies and maybe itll get more play ?

Why segregate Chuang's taoist text out of the main discussion area?

It is CENTRAL to Taoism , not some offshoot subject of esoteric value.

 

Location location location.

 

For structural purposes it might be possible to leave the thing out in the main area a specified period of time , and if the thread gets too long or falls asleep , it gets relegated back to the shelf and a new bit begun.

 

That's a fair idea. And I agree that ZZ is central to Taoism. It would take a lot of bumping to keep it from being quickly buried on back pages... and moved back and forth between locations, etc, with maybe the same discussions going on in two forums - in case someone wants to join in late.

 

I just recall what a nightmare it was to find something when all the taoist sub-forums posts were intermingled in just one sub-forum (taoist textual studies).

 

Whatever marblehead decides is fine with me. I'm just looking forward to the conversation.

 

warm regards

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[rene]

edit: Just include Chuang Tzu's distant references to heel breathing and spinal concentration, and you'll get many hits. Oh... wrong crowd? Sorry.

 

On second thought... maybe dragging ZZ into the middle of you heel breathing folks would be a great thing! (At minimum, it will showcase differences between LZ & ZZ. )

 

 

Edit to add: Marblehead, if you do decide to utilize the main Taoist Discussion area... please consider using the existing threads for each chapter - for ease, for background ideas already started, and so there aren't two separate threads on Chapter 1 Section A, Chapter 2 Section B, Chapter 1 Section C etc. etc.

 

Second edit to add: Also, if you take over the Steward slot for the ZZ sub-forum, you'd have the ability to edit the title of each thread as we did them. For example, "Chapter 1 Section A" could become "Chapter 1A - text and concepts" then we'd know where we were (in the process) regardless of where (which forum) we were.

 

Okay last edit: Since you're Steward of the main Taoist area.. you could create a little notice pinned to top of that area inviting folks up to ZZ sub-forum to partake... maybe lure them in with heel-breathing ideas and free candy and stuff.

Edited July 25, 2013 by rene

[Marblehead]

What joke, Marblehead?

Just PMed the joke.

[Marblehead]

edit: Just include Chuang Tzu's distant references to heel breathing and spinal concentration, and you'll get many hits. Oh... wrong crowd? Sorry.

Well, I'm glad you remember at least that much of it. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

Thanks for the comments and suggestions all. Much appreciated.

 

 

For example, "Chapter 1 Section A" could become "Chapter 1A - text and concepts" then we'd know where we were (in the process) regardless of where (which forum) we were.

 

 

Interesting. How about side by side, Chapter 1A Text and Chapter 1A Concepts?

 

That way we could have the ongoing text reading and then the associated concepts and discussions of the concepts? For me, discussing the concepts is where the value of doing this would lie. The text is wha it is.

 

 

Location location location.

Good point. I'll let my brain work on this a little.

[Marblehead]

Anyhow, there is no urgency to get back to this - I have the rest of my life to get it done.

 

I'll wait a bit to see if I can get any additional input.

[rene]

Interesting. How about side by side, Chapter 1A Text and Chapter 1A Concepts? That way we could have the ongoing text reading and then the associated concepts and discussions of the concepts? For me, discussing the concepts is where the value of doing this would lie. The text is wha it is.

 

Side by side? Sounds like a plan - as long as they both are in the same (physical) place - and a lot of work for you. Will you be pasting any of the text into the Concepts threads? Or do we go back and forth between the concept ideas and the words that spawned them?

 

Ah...no reason to answer those questions. I'll find out when you get around to doing it. No hurries, no worries. (-:

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

Side by side? Sounds like a plan - as long as they both are in the same (physical) place - and a lot of work for you. Will you be pasting any of the text into the Concepts threads? Or do we go back and forth between the concept ideas and the words that spawned them?

 

Ah...no reason to answer those questions. I'll find out when you get around to doing it. No hurries, no worries. (-:

 

warm regards

If we do go that way I think keeping the text in order would be important with little postings to that series but yes, if a part of the text is needed in the "concepts" series for clarificaion (or even compare/contrast of different translaors) when talking about the concepts then that/those sections could be pasted into the Chapter, Section, Concepts being discussed.

 

Yes, a lot of work for me getting things started and keeping a flow so that not more than a day or two expires between posts to any of the sections. No problem though, I enjoy reading and trying to more fully understand "The ChuangTzu". And besides, it will be winter soon and I'll be spending more time in the house.

[Marblehead]

I just wanted to bump this hoping for more suggestions for me to consider.

 

Thanks.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Marblehead

[rene]

well... you might consider how quick you had to 'bump' this up, when deciding where to put what.

 

Maybe threads up there; pinned open invitation down here?

 

Are you really going to wait until winter to start this?

[Marblehead]

well... you might consider how quick you had to 'bump' this up, when deciding where to put what.

 

Maybe threads up there; pinned open invitation down here?

 

Are you really going to wait until winter to start this?

Hehehe. No, I'm not going to wait until winter to start this.

 

Move my opining post to "General Discussions" and see what happens?

[rene]

bump bump bump bump

maybe try the pit after that

lots of action down there

[Marblehead]

bump bump bump bump

maybe try the pit after that

lots of action down there

Hehehe. Yeah, I've been spending a lot of time down there recently. Fun things going on.

[Stosh]

Play it like a game of family feud.

 

Once upon a time, I dreamt I was a butterfly...
Suddenly I awoke...
Now, I do not know whether I was then
a man dreaming I was a butterfly,
or whether I am now a butterfly
dreaming that I am a man.

 

What does this mean?

Survey SAYS! ,,,,,

[Marblehead]

Play it like a game of family feud.

 

Once upon a time, I dreamt I was a butterfly...

Suddenly I awoke...

Now, I do not know whether I was then

a man dreaming I was a butterfly,

or whether I am now a butterfly

dreaming that I am a man.

 

What does this mean?

Survey SAYS! ,,,,,

Good idea. Rene sent me something along this same line a couple days ago. I'm still letting my brain work on it. I don't want to force it but I hope I get something established soon so I can get whatevver it is started. Chuang Tzu is such an important part of Taoism.

[Marblehead]

Well, I started reading Lin Yutang's translation of The Chuang Tzu and in his introduction he mentions Herbert Giles' translation. So I go looking to see if it is on the internet. It is. I saved it in .PDF format so I will be reading that to see if I can get inspired to start a new study of Chuang Tzu.

 

Y'all please bear with me, Okay?

[Uroboros]

Marblehead! I would love to participate in studying the Chuang Tzu. If you do start one, I will bring forth what little insight/ mind vomit that happens to be relevant.

 

Are you wanting it to be like a study group/ book club? Everyone reads a chapter, gnaws on it and exchanges ideas as to what they feel it means?

 

Which is your favorite translation? They do seem to make a big difference.

 

Peace.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead! I would love to participate in studying the Chuang Tzu. If you do start one, I will bring forth what little insight/ mind vomit that happens to be relevant.

 

Are you wanting it to be like a study group/ book club? Everyone reads a chapter, gnaws on it and exchanges ideas as to what they feel it means?

 

Which is your favorite translation? They do seem to make a big difference.

 

Peace.

Hi Uroboros,

 

Thanks for the show of interest.

 

I started a study a while back, posting the individual stories from each chapter. The reads were rather long and I think that this is one of the reasons it failed.

 

I still haven't set anything as to how I would like to go about it. To this point in time my favorite translation is Watson's but I really love Lin Yutang's word usage/phrasology.

 

As mentioned, I will read Herbert Giles' translation before I start anything so there is time for others to offer me suggestions as to how to get as much participation as possible.