zerostao Posted August 6, 2013 i am at the college library, i will check out chuang tzu, its been awhile since i have read thru it... should i get merton, watson, or legge? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zerostao Posted August 7, 2013 i picked up the merton version for now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 7, 2013 MarbleHead- Thank you for your efforts in creating a way for various peoples to understand the Chuang Tzu. I have found some of his works to be easily understood and others very shifty. Hehe, after I posted in here, I went and found your previous attempt. There were some good insights and opinions. For me, the first chapter always throws me. Its so...vague yet clear...He speaks of giants and tiny beasts. It seems the Chuang Tzu, Lao Tzu and the others like them were precise in their language. So I feel that the words they use are important. Yet, they can also make it seem as though they are precise when really the words mean little! HAH, such is my confusion! If there is something I can do to help, let me know. Peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 7, 2013 MarbleHead- Thank you for your efforts in creating a way for various peoples to understand the Chuang Tzu. I have found some of his works to be easily understood and others very shifty. Hehe, after I posted in here, I went and found your previous attempt. There were some good insights and opinions. For me, the first chapter always throws me. Its so...vague yet clear...He speaks of giants and tiny beasts. It seems the Chuang Tzu, Lao Tzu and the others like them were precise in their language. So I feel that the words they use are important. Yet, they can also make it seem as though they are precise when really the words mean little! HAH, such is my confusion! If there is something I can do to help, let me know. Peace. Yeah, the individual words are very important in the initial reading. The entire Chuang Tzu is a series of short stories. Nearly all are fiction. Much like the Western Fairy Tales. But within each of the stories lies a concept about life and living. It is the concept that we are after. Once we grasp the concept we can forget the words and even the story. I deal with my first attempt in this manner. My problem was that all I did was post the stories. I didn't speak to the concepts. And it are the concepts that are important, the stories are just the vehicle for presenting the concepts. Yes, I will need all the help I can get once I get the new study started. Feedback is the only way I will know if I am successful or not. And, of course, my success will be totally dependant on the other members of this forum. The concepts! Remember the concepts! (That was a note to me. Hehehe.) (I am still a work in progress.) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zerostao Posted August 7, 2013 mh, is the Way of Chuang Tzu by merton the same as Wanderings on the Way ??? how many chuang tzu texts are their? the one i have now is the one i am most familiar with Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 7, 2013 mh, is the Way of Chuang Tzu by merton the same as Wanderings on the Way ??? how many chuang tzu texts are their? the one i have now is the one i am most familiar with There are a number of translations of the Chuang Tzu. Giles and Legge were amongst the first ones. Lin Yutang does not do the Miscellaneous Chapters in anything I have seen from him. Burton Watson is more recent and includes the Misc. Chapters and the Conversations. Nina Correa (sp?) has a translation on her web site and there are a few more recent translations as well. This site has a few of the translations: http://terebess.hu/english/lexikon/c.html I am currently reading Giles' as I have never read it while trying to form ideas in my pea-brain for when I start the new attempt for a study. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 7, 2013 I deal with my first attempt in this manner. My problem was that all I did was post the stories. I didn't speak to the concepts. And it are the concepts that are important, the stories are just the vehicle for presenting the concepts. Yes, I will need all the help I can get once I get the new study started. Feedback is the only way I will know if I am successful or not. And, of course, my success will be totally dependant on the other members of this forum. The concepts! Remember the concepts! (That was a note to me. Hehehe.) (I am still a work in progress.) Maybe first decide about what you want regarding the concepts themselves? What I mean is, will the discussion be around what concepts ZZ intended to convey... or do you want instead what the concepts in ZZ mean to us? There's a difference between 1. What X-concept means, (ZZ's intent) 2. What X-concept means to me. (My interpretation/application of ZZs ideas) Answers are easy once the question is understood. (-: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 7, 2013 Maybe first decide about what you want regarding the concepts themselves? What I mean is, will the discussion be around what concepts ZZ intended to convey... or do you want instead what the concepts in ZZ mean to us? There's a difference between 1. What X-concept means, (ZZ's intent) 2. What X-concept means to me. (My interpretation/application of ZZs ideas) Answers are easy once the question is understood. (-: So many questions!!! I need to find an answer book. Yes, both. What a statement. Hehehe. Giles' translation is an inspiration for me because at the beginning of each chapter he states the concepts (in his opinion) that are discussed in the chapter then presents the chapter. But yes, if a concept has nothing that applies in today's world then I wouldn't expect much discussion of it. But still, I think it should be mentioned so that we can get a better feel for the life he was living and why and how the concept applied to life back then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 7, 2013 Marblehead- That would make a huge difference. Focusing on the concepts, the core of the tales instead of the tales themselves. Rene- fantastic point! The difference between what Chuang Tzu felt the concept was and what we think it is..... Both would help us understand it better, I feel. Each individual interpretation, whilst understanding, as much as we can, what Chuang Tzu felt... Good stuff! Every one of the classics I have read, they all apply to the now, as they do to the future and the past... I feel that these "sages" spoke to timeless truths and aspects of life.... Part of why their writings last. Penetrating the concepts and realizing insight is needed to really implement, though... The difficulty! The joy! Oh my! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 7, 2013 Okay. Let's have a little test. I will start a new thread in the Chuang Tzu sub-forum and title it "Chapter 1 Concepts". This test will be directly from the Giles' translation without any modifications, additions or subtractions from his work. As the Chapters are already segmented into the individual stories the concepts can be tested against them. Perhaps I can even point to whatever section the concept refers to but I would really like for others to actually read the sections to see if they can pick up on the concepts without my pointing to them. So, let's see what happens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zerostao Posted August 11, 2013 "So, let's see what happens." looks like its off to a great start about 500 views and 100 replies in 2-3 days. congratulations 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 11, 2013 "So, let's see what happens." looks like its off to a great start about 500 views and 100 replies in 2-3 days. congratulations Yes. I am very pleased at the moment. Thanks to you all. If the interest holds this will be a keeper. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 11, 2013 Hi All, Something has been brought to my attention and I don't know which way to go with it so I am asking for some help. It has been noted that twice now, in our study of Chapter 1, I have not spoken to a post that included a concept in The Chuang Tzu somewhere in a later chapter but simply stated that we would be discussing that concept in an upcoming chapter. Here's my problem: Should I try to hold the discussions to only the concepts presented in each chapter or should I speak to other concepts as well and allow the discussions to go in whichever direction out thoughts and words take them? My personal preference is for structure. But I'm not doing this project for me, I'm doing it for Y'all. So please tell me, which do Y'all prefer? Structure or freeflow? Thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 11, 2013 I feel like the structure is important. The concepts and stories were put in a certain order, possibly for a reason. If we skip the order, we may miss key points to understand the later principles/ concepts. Build the foundation and all that jazz. Peace. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted August 11, 2013 I have a tendency to connect everything , so I tend to drift, its a good exercise for me to just be patient. If someone is sporatically and quietly trying to audit the conversation, the next time they would drop in,, The topic would be totally different and may have taken several turns already. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 12, 2013 Should I try to hold the discussions to only the concepts presented in each chapter or should I speak to other concepts as well and allow the discussions to go in whichever direction out thoughts and words take them? My personal preference is strongly for the former to avoid confusion; but the latter may kick in as long as not drifting too far off(I know it will happen and won't stop). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 12, 2013 My personal preference is strongly for the former to avoid confusion; but the latter may kick in as long as not drifting too far off(I know it will happen and won't stop). Yeah. I just posted Chapter 2. I think that at this point we can go astray in our discussion of Chapter 1. Perhaps this would work throughout? When I post the next chapter we can talk about other associated stuff in the former chapter? I will go back to Chapter 1 later and address the two comments I basically ignored earlier. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 Perhaps this would work throughout? When I post the next chapter we can talk about other associated stuff in the former chapter? Excellent idea! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted August 12, 2013 I can only share my own experience, FWIW. I never "studied" ZZ but the very first time I opened the book, I just felt extreme delight! "In the Northern Deep there is a great fish, thousands of miles long. It turns into a giant bird whose back is thousands of miles in size. When it gets aroused and takes to flight, its wings are like clouds covering the sky." Such is taiji! One has to keep in mind that there's no classical taoist literature that is literature in the sense we understand it. It's not fiction or nonfiction, it's practice put into words. The modern way, when a book by a professional in this or that modality is written as an adjunct to a practice, is to include a CD or a DVD with it, you read the book and then you watch and listen and that's how you get what the book is really about. The old taoist way implied such a DVD -- it wasn't physical, but it was there. E.g., I recently chanced upon a book by a Dr. Sha, and just leafing through it, I was rather underwhelmed. But then I put on the DVD included with it, and there Dr. Sha sings some taoist chants, accompanied by particular visualizations as you chant, you place your awareness here and there and sing while keeping your mind on some inner developments. Whoa! I was instantly hooked. The voice, coming all the way from the huiyin with no tension, no strain and, as one of the endorsers of the book (an opera singing teacher) put it, "no ego," blew me away. I immediately sat down and started learning the chants, singing along and following the rest of the (rather simple but important) instructions, and then there's a "tao dance" part to the DVD and I intend to learn that too. So, a big difference between just reading the book and knowing experientially what it's about... ZZ is like that too... only his "DVD" is to be discovered, it's invisible... but it's there. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 14, 2013 Taomeow- I had not even thought of that verse being about Taiji!! I have been pondering what you said and I am starting to see it... How majestic. That is an important perspective to keep in mind, I agree. That it is practice put into words.. Some things will be harder to understand, a layer, without having experienced certain things. Like how you read that verse and thought of Taiji. I did not. You practice Taiji Chuang among other things so you have internalized the Taiji more then I. So you connected/ resonated to the words differently..... I will keep that in mind. Thank you for sharing! Peace. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
