reply to free form

[fatherpaul]

how do i begin

 

i stumbled on this site by accident on my way to who knows where

i was impressed by the seriousness and the sincerity of most here

for some reason discourse seemed appropriate

 

that said

what i have to bring to the table is of no consiquence,

no help, no new "knowledge" nothing to gain.

 

we all want something, this is the beginning of human sorrow

 

we all need very little, food, shelter and clothing.

yet we all feel as if something is lacking inside.

this is the beginning of seeking.

seeking in itself is not wrong or right,

actually it has no value.

we find "paths" and "practices" galore

and if they bore us or don't meet our expectations

we abandon them and take on others, all with the promise, that this is the true one.

 

 

what i have said so far is simple, easy to understand and not obscure.

 

yet this can be misunderstood, and i tell you, it is not my problem.

 

"timeless is that which grasps, deathless is that which sees into"

 

this was stated by a sage of old

did he "know" the way of the Tao?

 

I dont know, yet in these words a certain resonance is sounded,

but only if i, a living human being, give it life as i read it.

 

to me it is just words

the truth of the matter cannot be spoken, given or recieved.

am i just a pretender as cat suspects? or do i know something.

i know nothing for there is nothing to know

so perhaps she is right

[fatherpaul]

i will say this

 

that all the tai chi masters of old

before they assumed even the most basic form

knew themselves completely, inside and out.

they were in the state of total awareness

BEFORE they discovered the moves, the forms,

the practices that others try to mirror,

but can never achieve.

 

this is because, the so called enlightened mind

can draw from itself, any form movement or talent

that it needs, having done that, it returns to rest.

a rest that is as quiet as a massive lake on a still day.

[freeform]

this is because, the so called enlightened mind

can draw from itself, any form movement or talent

that it needs, having done that, it returns to rest.

a rest that is as quiet as a massive lake on a still day.

 

I do agree with that.

 

that all the tai chi masters of old

before they assumed even the most basic form

knew themselves completely, inside and out.

they were in the state of total awareness

BEFORE they discovered the moves, the forms,

the practices that others try to mirror,

but can never achieve.

 

This is the difficulty - were they enlightened from birth or not? - I'd suggest no one really knows...

 

My personal oppinion is that every enlightened human had to take on a journey to 'know themselves fully' - and ofcourse that means to shed all knowledge at some point. I have this belief because it is usefull for me right now - Taomeow believes that there was a golden age where 'knowledge of oneself' was a given - there was no journey needed. Perhaps this belief serves her at this time - so it's usefull to her.

 

So you try to go for the non-dual - always reframing our polar judgements and considerations into non-duality. Ofcourse it never is non-dual, because by the very fact that you use words and we read them creates a duality.

 

The Taoists, I believe, recognised the non-dual state of mind, but they didn't rest there, they wanted to find out more about our polar yin yang world - so they studied the body and they studied nature.

 

We're now studying the body ourselves, as a journey to the non-dual - so when someone asks a question relating to experience based in the dual world of the body and then recieves a reply that is based on something non-dual then the immediate usefullness is gone.

 

There is also the question of the feel of the energy of your posts. to me it seems to be shoulders up... when I read your words, my awareness tends to move up to my head - when I read Trunk's words my awareness tends to go down (usually to my thighs ). And this is a very important part of Taoism - physical first - body first - first the roots - and only then the trunk, heart, emotions - and only then head, the leaves, awareness...

 

 

So the taichi masters - were they enlightened and only then got the movements? Or did they study movement and become enlightened as a result. I would say neither and both - through movement (especially whilst embodying elemental 'qualities') you get a sense of enlightenment - you explore and you create - you should try it.

 

You can do some kind of practice that involves getting into your elements - recognising the feel of each one - then choose an element, stand up, attention in the belly, whilst feeling the qualities of the particular elements and surrender your body to the feeling, you'll find yourself moving... it's like the element is moving you.

 

I dont know anything dual about you - I dont know if you've experienced something like this, so it's hard to relate, it feels inpersonal - it feels like you dont have a heart and a body, just a head that recognises emptiness.

 

I'm suggesting that most of us recognise profound, non-dual emptiness, but for us it's nothing unless we've got that whilst in the supermarket or whilst talking to an angry loved one or while doing tai chi. One of the aims of taoist practice is wu wei - doing without doing - knowing without thinking - effortless action - this all means that all action arises out of the formless non-dual - this is an achievement sought only after transforming your body, heart and mind.

[fatherpaul]

a very intelligent and well thought out reply

 

 

i must insist however,

that the practice comes after the dawning

and not before, it is what it is, not because i say so,

just because it is.

[Taiji Bum]

a very intelligent and well thought out reply

i must insist however,

that the practice comes after the dawning

and not before, it is what it is, not because i say so,

just because it is.

I agree.

[Taomeow]

we all need very little, food, shelter and clothing.

 

My list of the normal human needs goes, food, shelter, safety, freedom, love. This explains why we are "dissatisfied" -- most children start their lives without some, one or several, or all, of these normal natural needs ever being met. So they grow up to keep trying to get "now" what they didn't get "then" in this or that shape or form. The shape or form these attempts invariably take, and have been for the past fifteen thousand years or so, is religion, ideology, slavery, and war. What's there to be dissatisfied with? Oh... only "the human condition." Only what the sages of old called "in the human world, tao has been destroyed."

 

The only practice that makes sense to me starts out with the premise of abnormality of the human condition in general and one's own abnormal developmental history in particular. (What biologist Konrad Lorenz once called "the abnormal and pathological process of domestication of humans.") Whenever anyone tells me things are mighty fine as is, I am always compelled to ask them to show me one child to whom they've managed to give food, shelter, safety, freedom, and love. So far, no takers.

[Taoist81]

My list of the normal human needs goes, food, shelter, safety, freedom, love. This explains why we are "dissatisfied" -- most children start their lives without some, one or several, or all, of these normal natural needs ever being met. So they grow up to keep trying to get "now" what they didn't get "then" in this or that shape or form. The shape or form these attempts invariably take, and have been for the past fifteen thousand years or so, is religion, ideology, slavery, and war. What's there to be dissatisfied with? Oh... only "the human condition." Only what the sages of old called "in the human world, tao has been destroyed."

 

The only practice that makes sense to me starts out with the premise of abnormality of the human condition in general and one's own abnormal developmental history in particular. (What biologist Konrad Lorenz once called "the abnormal and pathological process of domestication of humans.") Whenever anyone tells me things are mighty fine as is, I am always compelled to ask them to show me one child to whom they've managed to give food, shelter, safety, freedom, and love. So far, no takers.

 

Why is providing for a child your ruler for judging how well things are going? Granted if one brings a child into this world one should provide those things, as it is your fault they are here. However, why would anyone have to provide for someone else in order to have the right to say all is well. Also, the "tao has been destroyed" seems like a stretch as a translation, but it may not sound the way you mean it. No amount of human activity can "destroy" the Tao even in the "human world". Whether we "take part in it" or not, the tao is ever-present in all we do.

[Taomeow]

why would anyone have to provide for someone else in order to have the right to say all is well.

 

Because there's no "someone else." Because "someone else" is you. Because we're all slip-sliding on the same huge banana peel, generation after generation.

 

If mom and dad can't do it for one kid, that's too bad for this one kid. But if all moms and dads of the world are unable to do it for every respective kid, and his or her kid is unable to do it for his or her kid, and the next... for thousands of years... that's "the human condition." Who's exempt? Nobody. Tao hasn't been destroyed on Bethelgeuse? Good for them. How does it help a human child whose tao has been destroyed by the human condition of mom and dad whose tao has been destroyed by the human condition of their mom and dad whose tao... ad nauseam? Oh... ideology to the rescue. Every kid can't have food, shelter, safety, freedom, love, but every kid can be taught how to say "tao cannot be destroyed." Or, alternatively, "Jesus saves." Or maybe "Allah akbar." Or maybe "Amitaba, Amitaba." Or maybe "Om mani padme." Or maybe "Shema Isroel." Or maybe "Hare Krishna, hare Rama." Or maybe...

 

...Or maybe there's a kid who grows up stubborn enough to want to say "screw that, where's food, shelter, safety, freedom, love for the human child, for the human being?" instead. (That would be me.)

 

We've been getting by on this ability to avoid calling a spade a spade since time immemorial courtesy of ideological constructs whose main purpose is to teach us how to look at a broken spade and declare it's not broken without batting an eyelid. I prefer to mend the broken spade instead. I believe being able to actually see a broken spade for a broken spade and stop looking at it through a make-believe "mending" lens of ideology -- any ideology -- is the prerequisite to its first and only chance to ever become whole.

 

Also sprach Taomeow.

Edited May 1, 2007 by Taomeow

[Ian]

a very intelligent and well thought out reply

i must insist however,

that the practice comes after the dawning

and not before, it is what it is, not because i say so,

just because it is.

 

I agree that you can't make it happen.

 

But, and this is important, you can stop it happening.

What's more, you can stop doing the things that you do which stop it happening.

 

Call that seeking, call it unnecessary. Fine. It is. But only once it becomes so. Until it is recognised as unnecessary, it is vital.

 

And it requires a great deal of effort to get to a place of no effort. Because your effort has thousands of years of momentum, and needs interrupting with a different kind of effort.

 

Unless you're very very lucky.

 

And when you get to the place of no effort, that isn't it. You still have to wait. But at least you're meeting grace half way.

 

If you just say, it's all fine, there's nothing to do, that's like hoping to win the lottery without buying a ticket.

[fatherpaul]

My list of the normal human needs goes, food, shelter, safety, freedom, love. This explains why we are "dissatisfied" -- most children start their lives without some, one or several, or all, of these normal natural needs ever being met. So they grow up to keep trying to get "now" what they didn't get "then" in this or that shape or form. The shape or form these attempts invariably take, and have been for the past fifteen thousand years or so, is religion, ideology, slavery, and war. What's there to be dissatisfied with? Oh... only "the human condition." Only what the sages of old called "in the human world, tao has been destroyed."

 

The only practice that makes sense to me starts out with the premise of abnormality of the human condition in general and one's own abnormal developmental history in particular. (What biologist Konrad Lorenz once called "the abnormal and pathological process of domestication of humans.") Whenever anyone tells me things are mighty fine as is, I am always compelled to ask them to show me one child to whom they've managed to give food, shelter, safety, freedom, and love. So far, no takers.

 

 

as the title of this post said, i was replying to freeform

 

taomeow,

you have a special voice

you are a good "parent of all children of the world"

as any good parent would be

I have the distinct honor and pleasure to have

fathered 4 beautiful young men

they have taught me much.

 

peace,

paul

[freeform]

i must insist however,

that the practice comes after the dawning

and not before, it is what it is, not because i say so,

just because it is.

 

I'm intrigued.

 

what does 'dawning' mean specifically? Is it a mind free of all thought? is it a permanant state? I'm pretty good at no-thought in certain situations... but it's not permanent - far from it.

 

What Ian said about meeting half way, sounds right. 'Empty your mind and let your dan tien move you' - is this what you're talking about?

 

Because a fully realised Shen (the enlightened mind) is one of the later attainments. jing to chi (body essence to energy) and chi to shen (energy to pure non-dual awareness) is the journey on offer with the taoists - as far as I understand it.

 

I have the distinct honor and pleasure to have

fathered 4 beautiful young men

 

suddenly you're less of a floating head!

 

thanks

[Taoist81]

Because there's no "someone else." Because "someone else" is you. Because we're all slip-sliding on the same huge banana peel, generation after generation.

 

If mom and dad can't do it for one kid, that's too bad for this one kid. But if all moms and dads of the world are unable to do it for every respective kid, and his or her kid is unable to do it for his or her kid, and the next... for thousands of years... that's "the human condition." Who's exempt? Nobody. Tao hasn't been destroyed on Bethelgeuse? Good for them. How does it help a human child whose tao has been destroyed by the human condition of mom and dad whose tao has been destroyed by the human condition of their mom and dad whose tao... ad nauseam? Oh... ideology to the rescue. Every kid can't have food, shelter, safety, freedom, love, but every kid can be taught how to say "tao cannot be destroyed." Or, alternatively, "Jesus saves." Or maybe "Allah akbar." Or maybe "Amitaba, Amitaba." Or maybe "Om mani padme." Or maybe "Shema Isroel." Or maybe "Hare Krishna, hare Rama." Or maybe...

 

...Or maybe there's a kid who grows up stubborn enough to want to say "screw that, where's food, shelter, safety, freedom, love for the human child, for the human being?" instead. (That would be me.)

 

We've been getting by on this ability to avoid calling a spade a spade since time immemorial courtesy of ideological constructs whose main purpose is to teach us how to look at a broken spade and declare it's not broken without batting an eyelid. I prefer to mend the broken spade instead. I believe being able to actually see a broken spade for a broken spade and stop looking at it through a make-believe "mending" lens of ideology -- any ideology -- is the prerequisite to its first and only chance to ever become whole.

 

Also sprach Taomeow.

 

First off, let it be known that none of this is meant as a disagreement with your sentiment. Likewise, agreed, there is no "someone else", those darned limitations of language : ). Whether it is teaching a man to fish or giving him a fish for the day, it is a "good" thing to help those other "selves" out there. At the same time, by saying that the "human condition" is the "tao destroyed" it is implied that if the tao weren't destroyed we would be in some type of utopia. In the deep jungle, where no man has ever had the opportunity to walk and "destroy the tao", since time immemorial, animals have stolen from and eaten each other. No, we are not falling into the old slippery argument that just because animals do it we should. But there is something to learn from there. Lao Tzu said to accept the "human condition", Chuang Tzu said that death and suffering were just as much a part of the beauty of life as the pleasures in life. Granted, to many this sounds as if it is meant to belittle the pain that others go through, while we all obviously have enough time or money to post on an online forum, that is not what is intended. You are right, that too often people toss out a "pre-recorded" quip ("jesus saves" etc) and gloss over whatever situation they are addressing. All this does is, as you put it, avoid calling a spade a spade, or avoid actually addressing a situation. Instead of seeking some "out there" meaning to it all, we would greatly benefit from understanding that this is the "human condition" it is the "tao of man", and the only way to follow it is to take off the rose-colored-looking-toward-the-future-when-everyone-can-have-a-wonderful life glasses and accept human nature as it is and operate within it. That is assuming of course that we as a species make it for much longer.

[Yen Hui]

Because a fully realised Shen (the enlightened mind) is one of the later attainments. jing to chi (body essence

to energy) and chi to shen (energy to pure non-dual awareness) is the journey on offer with the taoists - as far

as I understand it.

 

Hi there freeform,

 

Perhaps there is a shortcut, afterall, to achieving "a fully realized Shen". I am referring to Matrix Energetics.

It is a relatively new "healing" technique applied mainly to physical conditions; but with an equal potential,

I feel, for achieving complete realization in Taoist terms. Visit the ME Website and check out all their free

video clips, and pay special attention to the "time travel" technique. Then try to imagine applying that same

"tt" technique to achieving complete realization of the human shen.

 

Peace to all you Taobums ~

Yen Hui

[fatherpaul]

Hi there freeform,

 

Perhaps there is a shortcut, afterall, to achieving "a fully realized Shen". I am referring to Matrix Energetics.

It is a relatively new "healing" technique applied mainly to physical conditions; but with an equal potential,

I feel, for achieving complete realization in Taoist terms. Visit the ME Website and check out all their free

video clips, and pay special attention to the "time travel" technique. Then try to imagine applying that same

"tt" technique to achieving complete realization of the human shen.

 

Peace to all you Taobums ~

Yen Hui

 

 

i refuse to go there

 

end of my post.

[Yen Hui]

i refuse to go there

 

what an enlightened attitude!

[fatherpaul]

I'm intrigued.

 

what does 'dawning' mean specifically? Is it a mind free of all thought? is it a permanant state? I'm pretty good at no-thought in certain situations... but it's not permanent - far from it.

 

What Ian said about meeting half way, sounds right. 'Empty your mind and let your dan tien move you' - is this what you're talking about?

 

Because a fully realised Shen (the enlightened mind) is one of the later attainments. jing to chi (body essence to energy) and chi to shen (energy to pure non-dual awareness) is the journey on offer with the taoists - as far as I understand it.

suddenly you're less of a floating head!

 

thanks

when awareness becomes aware of it self

it is the the sun at dawn