Alex Anatole on Politics and Social Action

[redfarmer]

Hi, all. I've been reading Alex Anatole's book The Truth of Tao. Not knowing much about him other than he supposedly studied under a Chinese master, I was excited to read one of his books and, while I like the book overall, I'm finding two major problems I'm having. One is off topic here, an extremely faulty understanding of Buddhism.

 

The other is his interpretation of wu-wei as telling us to basically be passive in society, to not engage in politics or social action as they distract us from the tao. And, while I agree with him that politics and social action can certainly be a hindrance to following the tao, He seems to be advocating that we shouldn't get involved in societal matters at all. In his own words:

 

 

[Lao Tzu] teaches us never to involve ourselves in affairs of state and to leave social issues to the confused masses. Avoid political revolutions and head to the hills at the first smell of conflict. Pay your taxes, obey the speed limit, and hold the door open for old ladies. (p.349)

 

 

I question whether this is really the intention of the principle. For instance, isn't it in an African-American or gay person's interests to engage in political and social action to secure rights that would allow them to live the tao more comfortably? Does he mean that, were we to live through a regime as brutal as Nazi Germany, we should simply be passive and not involve ourselves with the indignities being wrought on our neighbors?

 

I'm curious if any of you have read Anatole enough to have an opinion on this matter. I'm finding myself frustrated with this as it seems to preclude any form of social engaged Taoism and it seems to sacrifice compassion, love, and generosity to a selfish narcissism that seems unhealthy. If I'm interpreting him wrong, I welcome correction.

[thelerner]

Hi, all. I've been reading Alex Anatole's book The Truth of Tao. Not knowing much about him other than he supposedly studied under a Chinese master, I was excited to read one of his books and, while I like the book overall, I'm finding two major problems I'm having. One is off topic here, an extremely faulty understanding of Buddhism.

 

The other is his interpretation of wu-wei as telling us to basically be passive in society, to not engage in politics or social action as they distract us from the tao. And, while I agree with him that politics and social action can certainly be a hindrance to following the tao, He seems to be advocating that we shouldn't get involved in societal matters at all. In his own words:

 

For instance, isn't it in an African-American or gay person's interests to engage in political and social action to secure rights that would allow them to live the tao more comfortably? Does he mean that, were we to live through a regime as brutal as Nazi Germany, we should simply be passive and not involve ourselves with the indignities being wrought on our neighbors?

 

I'm curious if any of you have read Anatole enough to have an opinion on this matter. I'm finding myself frustrated with this as it seems to preclude any form of social engaged Taoism and it seems to sacrifice compassion, love, and generosity to a selfish narcissism that seems unhealthy. If I'm interpreting him wrong, I welcome correction.

I haven't read Anatole, but the gay, Jew, gypsy, critic of the Nazi party would probably end up first in a concentration camp. In that situation being a political and social activist would mean death. Similarly a Taoist critic of Mao would be first in a Re-education camp, others who were not critical along w/ millions of others would follow. Sometimes the way to win is to leave, survive and thrive. Evil tends to be self destructive. It may take years or decades.

 

Its not a path for everyone or every time, but such wu wei style action, leave, survive and thrive; ain't a bad route. There is always a place for heroes, but they die and can have there visions corrupted. To stand in the way of an avalanche is brave, but won't accomplish much.

 

I'm not saying one is better then the other. The world needs both. We also need the wisdom not to paint everything we oppose as Nazi'ish.

Edited July 26, 2013 by thelerner

[hydrogen]

The other is his interpretation of wu-wei as telling us to basically be passive in society, to not engage in politics or social action as they distract us from the tao. And, while I agree with him that politics and social action can certainly be a hindrance to following the tao, He seems to be advocating that we shouldn't get involved in societal matters at all. In his own words:

 

Alex Anatole's was only preaching his own idea of wu-wei.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The Chapters which seem to be the most revelatory of the meanings of wu-wei I think are Chatpers 3 and 37. One needs to take the context of the chapter into account to understand what is meant by the term. In both chapters, the actions to be avoided are those which cause people to amass desire for name and renown, the idea (imo) being that by abstaining from such activity, society will function harmoniously rather than in jealousy and competition (as today's media is so good at agitating).

 

Here is my translation of Chapter Thirty, which I think you will see speaks more to the causes you're inquiring of, since it actually deals with how a man of Dao should counsel a leader when required. I think you'll see that wu-wei takes a similar shape as in Chapters 3 and 37, though the term "wu wei" does not appear.

 

 

30

以道佐人主者，

Apply Dao when assisting leaders of men

 

不以兵強天下。

Not by means of weapons is there power under heaven

其事好還。

Such business will be responded to in kind

師之所處荊棘生焉。

Where troops gather, thorns and brambles appear

軍之後必有凶年。

Following war, there is sure to be famine and misfortune

善有果而已，

Skilfully achieve results and then stop

 

不敢以取強。

Do not dare to act merely for the acquisition of power

果而勿矜。

Achieve results but do not seek for recognition

果而勿伐。

Achieve results but never gloat or deride

果而勿驕。

Achieve results but never become arrogant or conceited

果而不得已。

Achieves results but do not presume your work is complete

 

果而勿強。

Achieve results but never indulge in power

物壯則老，

Things thrive in their prime and then become aged

 

是謂不道，

It is correctly said that this does not reflect the Dao

不道早已。

Not reflecting the Dao, the end will be premature

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Btw, this is not meant to say anything about Anatole's vast knowledge and experience of Dao and Daoism, though I might say rhetorical style resulted in a limited picture of what was being said,

The Chapters which seem to be the most revelatory of the meanings of wu-wei I think are Chatpers 3 and 37. One needs to take the context of the chapter into account to understand what is meant by the term. In both chapters, the actions to be avoided are those which cause people to amass desire for name and renown, the idea (imo) being that by abstaining from such activity, society will function harmoniously rather than in jealousy and competition (as today's media is so good at agitating).

 

Here is my translation of Chapter Thirty, which I think you will see speaks more to the causes you're inquiring of, since it actually deals with how a man of Dao should counsel a leader when required. I think you'll see that wu-wei takes a similar shape as in Chapters 3 and 37, though the term "wu wei" does not appear.

 

 

30

以道佐人主者，

Apply Dao when assisting leaders of men

 

不以兵強天下。

Not by means of weapons is there power under heaven

其事好還。

Such business will be responded to in kind

師之所處荊棘生焉。

Where troops gather, thorns and brambles appear

軍之後必有凶年。

Following war, there is sure to be famine and misfortune

善有果而已，

Skilfully achieve results and then stop

 

不敢以取強。

Do not dare to act merely for the acquisition of power

果而勿矜。

Achieve results but do not seek for recognition

果而勿伐。

Achieve results but never gloat or deride

果而勿驕。

Achieve results but never become arrogant or conceited

果而不得已。

Achieves results but do not presume your work is complete

 

果而勿強。

Achieve results but never indulge in power

物壯則老，

Things thrive in their prime and then become aged

 

是謂不道，

It is correctly said that this does not reflect the Dao

不道早已。

Not reflecting the Dao, the end will be premature

Edited July 27, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[redfarmer]

I haven't read Anatole, but the gay, Jew, gypsy, critic of the Nazi party would probably end up first in a concentration camp. In that situation being a political and social activist would mean death. Similarly a Taoist critic of Mao would be first in a Re-education camp, others who were not critical along w/ millions of others would follow. Sometimes the way to win is to leave, survive and thrive. Evil tends to be self destructive. It may take years or decades.

 

Its not a path for everyone or every time, but such wu wei style action, leave, survive and thrive; ain't a bad route. There is always a place for heroes, but they die and can have there visions corrupted. To stand in the way of an avalanche is brave, but won't accomplish much.

 

I'm not saying one is better then the other. The world needs both. We also need the wisdom not to paint everything we oppose as Nazi'ish.

 

I agree it takes wisdom to know when to commit to what action, and I certainly wouldn't advocate being an open social activist in Nazi Germany. But it seems to me that, if you are in such a situation, you can still do what you can. Oskar Schindler and Corrie ten Boom didn't stop the Holocaust, but they impacted individual lives, which is sometimes all we can do. To me, this is more the route of the Tao than what Anatole advocates, especially since neither Schindler or ten Boom sought fame, fortune, or power for their acts.

 

The Chapters which seem to be the most revelatory of the meanings of wu-wei I think are Chatpers 3 and 37. One needs to take the context of the chapter into account to understand what is meant by the term. In both chapters, the actions to be avoided are those which cause people to amass desire for name and renown, the idea (imo) being that by abstaining from such activity, society will function harmoniously rather than in jealousy and competition (as today's media is so good at agitating).

 

<snip>

 

Thanks for this. It does indeed help to see these verses from the Tao Te Ching laid out in such a way. I like your interpretation of wu-wei and, while it does not seem to agree with Anatole's, it seems more in line with these passages.

[redfarmer]

Alex Anatole's was only preaching his own idea of wu-wei.

While what you say is definitely true, I ask in this thread because I want to make sure I'm being fair to the guy. He seems to hold a very exclusivist attitude: the way he's been taught is THE authentic way to be a Taoist. And, while he definitely seems genuinely like the real thing, he all but says he's the only real Taoist teacher in the USA. Not to mention he views on other religions--he basically says American Buddhists are being disrespectful to the Buddhist tradition because they aren't monastic.

 

I like the responses I have gotten though.

[baiqi]

To be honest, I think following blindly Anatole's views simply could turn you into a very selfish individual. Which is not following the Dao.

 

As other posters said, he has his own interpretation of the Daode Jing, which I don't agree with (although some of his thoughts are interesting).

 

Some taoists were involved in politics. Some died because of their political views. You do not necesseraly want to do the same, but integrity and involvement are important, and sometimes needed. Wu wei is not "do nothing" at all! I like the Schindler example...

 

 

he basically says American Buddhists are being disrespectful to the Buddhist tradition because they aren't monastic.

In that case, all Taoists should be hermits.

[Marblehead]

Hi Redfarmer,

 

This quote:

 

[Lao Tzu] teaches us never to involve ourselves in affairs of state and to leave social issues to the confused masses. Avoid political revolutions and head to the hills at the first smell of conflict. Pay your taxes, obey the speed limit, and hold the door open for old ladies. (p.349)

 

is more the teaching of Chuang Tzu than it is Lao Tzu.

 

But the concept is valid if looked at it from Chuang Tzu's perspective.

 

Continue your reading. I'm sure you will find much value in it. However, after that, go back and read a couple (more) translations of the TTC and then read Chuang Tzu (I recommend Burton Watson).

 

There are some serious differences between the philosophies of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

[hydrogen]

he all but says he's the only real Taoist teacher in the USA. Not to mention he views on other religions

Alex Anatole got balls.

 

That might be his religion. I respect others religion so long it doesn't interfere with mine.

 

If a kid believes in tooth fairy and do good, I'm not going to prove to her that tooth fairy doesn't exist.

 

In Qi Gong practice, there is a technique called "fake it until you make it". Who knows! He might be practicing that too.

[xor]

says he's the only real Taoist teacher in the USA.

 

Really? Where did he say this?

 

p.s. posted some videos of him on another thread @ http://thetaobums.com/topic/1858-the-truth-of-tao-by-alex-anatole/

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

It is simply best to avoid participation in civil, social, political, and other governing affairs, as you can be held at fault for the victimization that results of said CSPG affairs.

ALL CSPG affairs result in creating victims in an effort to solve other individuals' problems.
Participation in such affairs puts you as a guilty party in the victimization of "collateral damage" recipients. Civilization cannot exist without causing collateral damage.

Paying "your" taxes makes you mutually responsible for the affairs of your CSPG groups, and is contradicting the stance that one should refrain from participation.


This is the only problem I have with the sentiment, is his inconsistency in advice.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

We have an idea of oppression and liberation here, now, in the west, that is relatively cosmetic, compared to what was going on when such advice was recommended to preserve lfe and sanity.

 

This touches on the skin tight surface of how society has bred a reliance and expected entitlement on, in, and of "convenience" and instant gratification... Which follows backward to the advice to remain non-partisan in civil, social, political, and governing activities, as they are self destructive "necessary" (only by opinion) "Evils" (again, close opinions of the third kind).

 

[redfarmer]

Really? Where did he say this?

 

p.s. posted some videos of him on another thread @ http://thetaobums.com/topic/1858-the-truth-of-tao-by-alex-anatole/

 

You actually misquoted me. I said he all but says this. In "The Truth of Tao", he makes a sharp distinction between "classical Taoists" and "popular Taoists". Popular Taoism would be basically most of what is taught in the west: Qi Gong and Tai Chi divorced from their Taoist contexts, people who claim to be Taoists without going through actual teacher training, etc. He seems to hold a disdain for these popular Taoists and believes that, as with the Buddhists, they are not doing justice to the tradition. He believes that something of value may be going on, but that it's not Taoism.

[redfarmer]

 

This touches on the skin tight surface of how society has bred a reliance and expected entitlement on, in, and of "convenience" and instant gratification... Which follows backward to the advice to remain non-partisan in civil, social, political, and governing activities, as they are self destructive "necessary" (only by opinion) "Evils" (again, close opinions of the third kind).

 

 

I don't think it's an opinion some of these activities are necessary. It is much easier to follow the Tao if I am not being oppressed by the government. It is not impossible to follow the Tao, but Anatole himself says the person of the Tao expends energy to remove things blocking them from following the Tao. If I or others are being oppressed, then following the Tao might actually mean removing those obstacles.

[Marblehead]

... people who claim to be Taoists without going through actual teacher training, etc. He seems to hold a disdain for these popular Taoists ...

That is called self-promoting. "You can't learn it right if you don't learn it from me."

 

Christians do the same thing. All belief system leaders do the same thing. In short they are saying, "Give me your money."

 

Be careful of those who claim to be the only holder of the "Truth".

 

Think for yourself. The Spirit of Tao is available to everyone. This is why I suggested that you continue your reading of Anatole's work but then to go back and read the TTC and the Chuang Tzu. Get as close to first hand as you possibly can.

[xor]

You actually misquoted me. I said he all but says this.

 

Ah I see now! Sorry about that.

 

In "The Truth of Tao", he makes a sharp distinction between "classical Taoists" and "popular Taoists". Popular Taoism would be basically most of what is taught in the west: Qi Gong and Tai Chi divorced from their Taoist contexts, people who claim to be Taoists without going through actual teacher training, etc. He seems to hold a disdain for these popular Taoists and believes that, as with the Buddhists, they are not doing justice to the tradition. He believes that something of value may be going on, but that it's not Taoism.

 

That makes sense to me and I would agree with everything there. It's his right to guard the purity of his tradition if he's from an authentic lineage.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Good luck defining "necessity" apart from desire.... you won't make much progress; all necessities root back to a desire of some kind, and to promote any necessity is to promote all desire.

The ego fuels your desires, your activities are only necessary for your ego to maintain hold over you.

Ironic hypocrisy: taking action in advocating an inactivity approach! But this is a tricky area: If I practice what I preach, you will never know I had anything to preach, I would effectively disappear, yet if I want to see the world improve around me, I cannot practice what I preach, I cannot become inactive, while the world around me is consistently defiled and altered to benefit the desires of the civilized norm; the desires which ruin my own desires...





The majority desires convenience and civility.

All I want is that they be minimized, quarantined, removed from the planet and let to live unnatural lives anywhere but here.

But since I cant have that, I toil to convince the civilized infection to reduce itself and become unobtrusive, and barely visible.


All I want is for communities and families to come together and share in prosperity and nature, to teach children how to hunt and forage, to teach children how to survive in the wild.... to stop being prejudice and hateful wretched creatures who fear reality so much so that you feel the need to pave over it with your own image of life - only to create an ugly image of death!