The vagus nerve is not the sushumna/central channel

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hey Drew

I have thought about this for a long time now. You keep saying that the right vagus nerve is the central channel. I now disagree.

 

My reasons are as follows:

 

1) On several occasions you have said that the main aorta in the right side of the neck pulses when you activate the vagus nerve. Well, the central channel goes up the center of the neck, not on the right side of the neck.

 

2) The right vagus nerve ends in the bowels and is not connected to the tail bone. The central channel starts at the perineum and goes straight up, just in front of the spine.

 

3) You said the left vagus nerve goes down the left side of the neck and terminates at the heart. What you are describing may be the ida, and the right vagus nerve may be pingala, but they are not definately not the central channel.

 

4) If kundalini rises up the central channel, starting from the muladhara, and it's first step is piercing the granthi knot, where are the corresponding vagus nerves then?

 

5) If kundalini must pierce the three granthis knots in order to rise up the sushumna, then ordinary orgasm can't be taking the same path, because ordinary orgasm does not pierce the three granthis. Therefore, the channels must be different.

 

http://www.swamij.com/kundalini-awakening-5.htm

 

Three knots or granthis are broken: Along the Sushumna channel there are three knots (granthis) of energy that will be broken or untied along the upward journey of Kundalini Rising, allowing the flow to go into and through the various chakras above that point:

Brahma granthi: Blocking the flow from the first chakra, the root chakra, muladhara, upward to the others; related to bondage to desires.

Vishnu granthi: Blocking the flow from the third chakra at the navel, manipura, upward to the fourth chakra, anahata, the heart; related to bondage of actions.

Rudra granthi: Blocking the flow beyond the sixth chakra between the eyebrows, ajna chakra, upwards towards sahasrara; related to bondage of thoughts (compared to pure knowing).

 

Now, I'm not vehement about this idea and I don't think we are going to really prove anything, because science can't prove that a central channel even exists, but it is an interesting theory that the vagus nerve is not the central channel, isn't it?

 

TI

[voidisyinyang]

The only time I mentioned the vagus nerve as connected to a "real" kundalini experience and implicitly the central channel was after I discovered the KAP teacher saying this ....

 

part one and two

 

 

 

http://www.kundaliniawakeningprocess.com/blog/kundalini-the-importance-of-the-vagus-nerve-later-stages-of-alchemy-and-more/

 

Kundalini, the importance of the vagus nerve, some correspondences in internal alchemy, and more…

 

 

Now when I have been talking about my vagus nerves pulsating - this is actually a low level of energy - it is just the jing energy and yin chi energy!!

 

When I had a real enlightenment experience the energy was much stronger than this vagus nerve pulsating experience. I only noticed the vagus nerve pulsating around 2006 - and so I began researching it - I actually went to the doctor since I had pain along the back of the ear and that's how I began researching it. The doctor of course said nothing was wrong after he checked my ears and I knew it was from the qi energy. haha.

 

Anyway so yeah I agree with what you are saying - but according to the KAP teachers vagus nerve activation is indication of central channel real kundalini activation.....

 

It's just a beginning level of central channel energy - it's only after the lower tan tien is filled with energy that a real start of opening the central channel can begin..... I only achieved that for a few weeks in 2000.

Edited July 26, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus

[Edward M]

They may not be the same thing, but perhaps the vagus nerve acts with the central channel to initiate all the changes bio-chemistry?

 

The pulsating of the neck i'd expect is the yin-wei channel.. say that because i noticed first after lsd use 13 yrs ago,, then again recently after using a herbal formula targeting the yin wei extraordinary meridian.. when i told my tcm doc about this he was surprised how deep lsd works on the body/energy.. good reason not to mess with these substances unless one is really guided properly and have chosen power substances as part of their path..but mixing paths like that is imo not a good thing to do..

 

Peace

[Songtsan]

Sushumna has always been associated with the spinal cord as far as I can recall...

[Creation]

Sushumna has always been associated with the spinal cord as far as I can recall...

TI mentioned that the vagus nerve doesn't go all the way down to the root. Well, the spinal cord doesn't either.

 

The central channel is something entirely metaphysical IMO, it is only when it is projected onto a 3 dimensional physical framework that it is experienced as being in the center of the body (cf. David Bohm's ideas on the implicate order).

[Songtsan]

TI mentioned that the vagus nerve doesn't go all the way down to the root. Well, the spinal cord doesn't either.

 

The central channel is something entirely metaphysical IMO, it is only when it is projected onto a 3 dimensional physical framework that it is experienced as being in the center of the body (cf. David Bohm's ideas on the implicate order).

 

I thought that the spinal cord branched into the caudus equina? I'd have to check, but I am lazy right now.

[Songtsan]

TI mentioned that the vagus nerve doesn't go all the way down to the root. Well, the spinal cord doesn't either.

 

The central channel is something entirely metaphysical IMO, it is only when it is projected onto a 3 dimensional physical framework that it is experienced as being in the center of the body (cf. David Bohm's ideas on the implicate order).

 

However, they say that everything on the etheric and higher planes has a physical correlate, whether its yogic philosophy or otherwise. As above, so below.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Different traditions argue over the location and route of the 'central' channel.

 

They have done for centuries, so I doubt anyone here is going to clear it up

 

One school of thought says the central channel runs up through the spine/spinal cord. The other takes a straight direct line from the perineum to the crown of the head.

 

There are also arguments over just how ida and pingala move through the body, exactly where or how often they intwine and how this relates to the chakras.

 

As well as the number of chakras, their locations, their association etc etc.

 

My honest advice is to become aware of all this, not get your knickers in a twist about it, and simply allow your own unfolding experience via whichever practice you do, to be the main understanding you have.

 

If a model or theory supports your experience fantastic! But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, remain open and you may be surprised to find that some other time you experience phenomena that better fits another model.

 

Bear in mind, all practices "dao yin" ie 'guide and lead' the experiences. This is why certain schools tend to adhere to certain models of the energy body.

 

Regarding anatomical features being parralels, one thought, what would FEELING your vagus nerve be like? What emerging sensations and arising internal experience would it give you? Do you think that it would be confined only to the specific anatomical structure of the nerve itself? Worth pondering?

 

Anatomical structures as an explanation has been popular for decades, it helps people accept things and do the practice. If you experience what you are meant to does it matter?

 

Best,

[Songtsan]

I agree with that tentatively. I also think that there is value in the older systems, and have experienced that value directly. In fact, I think it is wonderful that they discussed such things as Ida/Pingala long before they knew that the right side of the brain controlled the left side of the body and vice/versa. The right side of the brain is of course often associated with the feminine side, and left with male. As Ida is lunar/female/left-side of body, thus being controlled by the right side of the brain - this fits perfectly with the model from both the western and eastern views. My discussion isn't so much that the views conflict, but that the views are mutually supportive. In fact, one day we will likely find that all the sciences, whether yogic, or empirical, all converge on a view of the truth that is by far stronger than any of the individual explanations. I seek such a convergence, which is what I am exploring in my discussion. I neither seek to deny or affirm belief systems, only to unite them.

 

One often sees Ida/Pingala illustrated as a wavy sinuous line. I think this is merely symbolic, and that in fact Ida/Pingala is really represented by the majority of the nerve tracks of either side...as the picture below shows, these major nerve branches repetitively stem from the sushumna in regular intervals. Notice that at the bottom, although the spinal cord ends, it doesn't really - there is a smaller branch, which I believe is the cauda equina (Latin for 'Horse's Tail'), which keeps on going, and in fact connects with all of the above places you mentioned. Connecting in a continuous loop all the way through to the vagus nerve and beyond - completing the circuit for front/back - making up the circle that the MCO travels along.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

The only time I mentioned the vagus nerve as connected to a "real" kundalini experience and implicitly the central channel was after I discovered the KAP teacher saying this ....

 

part one and two

 

 

 

http://www.kundaliniawakeningprocess.com/blog/kundalini-the-importance-of-the-vagus-nerve-later-stages-of-alchemy-and-more/

 

 

 

Now when I have been talking about my vagus nerves pulsating - this is actually a low level of energy - it is just the jing energy and yin chi energy!!

 

When I had a real enlightenment experience the energy was much stronger than this vagus nerve pulsating experience. I only noticed the vagus nerve pulsating around 2006 - and so I began researching it - I actually went to the doctor since I had pain along the back of the ear and that's how I began researching it. The doctor of course said nothing was wrong after he checked my ears and I knew it was from the qi energy. haha.

 

Anyway so yeah I agree with what you are saying - but according to the KAP teachers vagus nerve activation is indication of central channel real kundalini activation.....

 

It's just a beginning level of central channel energy - it's only after the lower tan tien is filled with energy that a real start of opening the central channel can begin..... I only achieved that for a few weeks in 2000.

Hi Drew,

I had watched those videos a while back but I watched them again. Yup. He does say that one has to get the vagus nerves involved in order to 'not miss the heart'. I think the explanation is much too physical.

 

When I was doing pranayama, a 9-3-9-3 breathing cycle, my body and mind would dissolve and I would find myself just hanging out in a huge open space that resembled outer space. There was nothing around except for the very faint glitter of what looked like stars in the very far background. And, when I looked at my body (what was left of it), it looked like the magnetic lines of a bar magnet. I think I was in the central channel. There was no evidence of any physicality at all, no body, no nerves, no spine.. just this 'jelly fish of light', which is what I had become. I spent about 1 week reaching that state during my meditations and then I quit the pranayama because I didn't see any point in just hanging there in outer-space. It was actually kind of boring and kind of hard to understand.

 

However, I have a suggestion. Why don't you ask Jim Nance if the Vagus nerve is the sushumna? I would be curious to hear what he says about it. .

 

TI

[voidisyinyang]

Hi Drew,

I had watched those videos a while back but I watched them again. Yup. He does say that one has to get the vagus nerves involved in order to 'not miss the heart'. I think the explanation is much too physical.

 

When I was doing pranayama, a 9-3-9-3 breathing cycle, my body and mind would dissolve and I would find myself just hanging out in a huge open space that resembled outer space. There was nothing around except for the very faint glitter of what looked like stars in the very far background. And, when I looked at my body (what was left of it), it looked like the magnetic lines of a bar magnet. I think I was in the central channel. There was no evidence of any physicality at all, no body, no nerves, no spine.. just this 'jelly fish of light', which is what I had become. I spent about 1 week reaching that state during my meditations and then I quit the pranayama because I didn't see any point in just hanging there in outer-space. It was actually kind of boring and kind of hard to understand.

 

However, I have a suggestion. Why don't you ask Jim Nance if the Vagus nerve is the sushumna? I would be curious to hear what he says about it. .

 

TI

 

Were you sitting in full lotus for that?

 

I agree that the vagus nerve is just a physical start of the energy.

[voidisyinyang]

Different traditions argue over the location and route of the 'central' channel.

 

They have done for centuries, so I doubt anyone here is going to clear it up

 

One school of thought says the central channel runs up through the spine/spinal cord. The other takes a straight direct line from the perineum to the crown of the head.

 

There are also arguments over just how ida and pingala move through the body, exactly where or how often they intwine and how this relates to the chakras.

 

As well as the number of chakras, their locations, their association etc etc.

 

My honest advice is to become aware of all this, not get your knickers in a twist about it, and simply allow your own unfolding experience via whichever practice you do, to be the main understanding you have.

 

If a model or theory supports your experience fantastic! But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, remain open and you may be surprised to find that some other time you experience phenomena that better fits another model.

 

Bear in mind, all practices "dao yin" ie 'guide and lead' the experiences. This is why certain schools tend to adhere to certain models of the energy body.

 

Regarding anatomical features being parralels, one thought, what would FEELING your vagus nerve be like? What emerging sensations and arising internal experience would it give you? Do you think that it would be confined only to the specific anatomical structure of the nerve itself? Worth pondering?

 

Anatomical structures as an explanation has been popular for decades, it helps people accept things and do the practice. If you experience what you are meant to does it matter?

 

Best,

 

 

I feel the vagus nerve via the pineal gland connection. It's through the pineal gland that I feel the internal body.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Were you sitting in full lotus for that?

 

I agree that the vagus nerve is just a physical start of the energy.

 

Back then, I was sitting in half lotus..

 

TI

[voidisyinyang]

Back then, I was sitting in half lotus..

 

TI

 

Yeah I would just rely on full lotus and not trust the mind - just keep emptying out your energy perceptions, etc.

 

But still sounds pretty awesome!

[FokusFyre]

I truly believe the energy channels are not physical. They are not nerves or anything else. They are energy.

[joeblast]

and dont forget the anterior longitundinal ligament

[Creation]

Sounds about right. Thanks Creation.

 

Could you point me to the title of a reading resource? I'd like to learn more.

From two of Bohm's collaborators:

 

"The world we seem to live in - the world of classical objects, the world of Newtonian physics - Dave referred to as the ‘explicate order.’ He felt that what we take for reality is only one particular level or perception of order. And underneath that is what he called the ‘implicate order,’ the enfolded order, in which things are folded together and deeply interconnected, and out of which the explicate order unfolds. The explicate is only, you could say, the froth on top of the milk and the implicate order is much deeper. It includes not only matter, but consciousness; it’s only in the explicate order that we tend to break them apart, to see them as two separate things. Dave spent a great deal of time in the last decades of his life trying to find a mathematical expression for this vision of reality." F. David Peat

 

"Thus, there exists the possibility of a whole series of noncompatible explicate orders, none being more primary than any other. This is to be contrasted with the Cartesian order in which it is assumed that the whole of nature can be laid out in a unique space–time for our intellectual examination. Everything in the material world can be reduced to one level. Nothing more complicated is required. This is why it was such a shock when it was first realized that quantum mechanics requires a principle of complimentarity. Here, we are asked to view complementarity as arising from uncertainty principle operating within the Cartesian framework. However, it is not merely an uncertainty; it is a new ontological principle that arises from the fact that it is not possible to construct a piece of physical apparatus that will allow one to display complementary properties together. Within the Cartesian order, complimentarity seems totally mysterious. There exists no structural reason as to why these incompatibilities exist. Within the notion of the implicate order, a structural reason emerges and provides a new way of searching for explanations." Basil Hiley

 

For more on Bohm's ideas:

helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/37374/Futura_2_2012_Pylkkanen.pdf?sequence=2

www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~mdt26/PWT/lectures/bohm8.pdf

 

My views on how all this ties into a conceptual framework for the subtle levels of reality is something I have synthesized from reading a good deal on physics and cultivation, plus my own experiences. So there is nothing to read on it until I write it. But the material on the mind-matter connection in the above articles is a good starting point.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Creation

[SonOfTheGods]

I have this book:

 

Kundalini: The Serpent Power,

by V.G. Rele

http://www.amazon.com/Kundalini-Serpent-Power-V-G-Rele/dp/8129200260/ref=sr_1_4/184-3418487-3097744?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1375562272&sr=1-4

 

which goes into great detail on the vagus

Edited August 3, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[voidisyinyang]

I have this book:

 

Kundalini: The Serpent Power,

by V.G. Rele

http://www.amazon.com/Kundalini-Serpent-Power-V-G-Rele/dp/8129200260/ref=sr_1_4/184-3418487-3097744?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1375562272&sr=1-4

 

which goes into great detail on the vagus

 

 

Exactly!

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=qzYgfNyIdjgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=vagus+V.G.+Rele&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hHD9UdrLA8GC2AXTw4HAAw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vagus%20&f=false

[Tibetan_Ice]

I have this book:

 

Kundalini: The Serpent Power,

by V.G. Rele

http://www.amazon.com/Kundalini-Serpent-Power-V-G-Rele/dp/8129200260/ref=sr_1_4/184-3418487-3097744?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1375562272&sr=1-4

 

which goes into great detail on the vagus

Hi SG and Drew

Well thank you very much for that link. That book actually says quite clearly that the vagus nerve is not the sushumna. !

 

Let's be clear here. Drew, that video by Tao Semko does not specifically state that the vagus nerve is the sushumna. He says that it is important to develop the vagus nerve because it is connect to major plexuses, like the heart, which the spinal path misses, and that it is important to develop the heart/emotions/compassion. He never explicitly states that the vagus nerve is the sushumna (which is the topic of my post). Kundalini can take any route it likes, just because kundalini goes one way does not mean that it took the sushumna.

 

Now, what exactly does the book "The Mysterious Kundalini" say about the sushumna?

 

The third nadi, Sushumna, is centrally situated and passes through the meru-danda i.e. the spinal column. It originates inside the Kanda i.e. the sacrum which roughly corresponds with the level of the navel.

It runs, up the body, from this point, pierces the Talu (the base of the skull) and joins Brahma-chakra (the plexus of neves of a thousand branches of the cereburm). This nadi, as it ascends and reaches the level of Kantha (region of the larynx), divides into an anterior and a posterior part. The anterior portion goes towards the ajna-chakra, the plexus of command, which is situated between the two eye-brows and joins the Brahma-randhra (cavity in the brain). The posterior portion passes from behind the skull and joins the Brahma-randhra which is supposed to be a cavity in the brain from which the Yogi liberates his soul. It is this posterior portion that is to be developed by a student of Yogic science.

 

The meaning of the terms "anterior and posterior" is quite different from 'left' and 'right'. Anterior means 'front'. Posterior means 'back'.

So, although I am willing to concede that kundalini activity does stimulate the vagus nerve, and possibly the inverse is true too, the sushumna is not the vagus nerve, for, they have separate paths.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14382688/Mysterious-Kundalini

 

 

 

TI

[voidisyinyang]

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=3840&sid=66129aad738a5d7a8de2bebf0c7b75ee

 

Here's a good discussion on what is the central channel vis a vis the nerves.

[SonOfTheGods]

Hi T.I.

 

I wrote here:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30856-celestial-pimping-you-might-be-making-a-mess/#entry460244

 

"The practitioner is consciously moving their energy to various locations across their body, via metaphysical meridians that do not actually exist in the physical realm.

 

These meridians have physical counterparts, however, but the meridians, nadis, themselves, are mapped out in a realm that is not limited by time and space."

 

I feel Kundalini moves along metaphysical boundary-less lines, but are related to actual physical counterparts.

 

Hi SG and Drew

Well thank you very much for that link. That book actually says quite clearly that the vagus nerve is not the sushumna. !

 

Let's be clear here. Drew, that video by Tao Semko does not specifically state that the vagus nerve is the sushumna. He says that it is important to develop the vagus nerve because it is connect to major plexuses, like the heart, which the spinal path misses, and that it is important to develop the heart/emotions/compassion. He never explicitly states that the vagus nerve is the sushumna (which is the topic of my post). Kundalini can take any route it likes, just because kundalini goes one way does not mean that it took the sushumna.

 

Now, what exactly does the book "The Mysterious Kundalini" say about the sushumna?

 

 

 

The meaning of the terms "anterior and posterior" is quite different from 'left' and 'right'. Anterior means 'front'. Posterior means 'back'.

So, although I am willing to concede that kundalini activity does stimulate the vagus nerve, and possibly the inverse is true too, the sushumna is not the vagus nerve, for, they have separate paths.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14382688/Mysterious-Kundalini

 

 

 

TI

[SonOfTheGods]

The problem with all this, for me, is I can circulate energy a couple of feet away from my body, and extend meridians a couple of feet above and below me, and still feel it inside of me.

if the energy is too strong sometimes, I level it out, this way.

[SonOfTheGods]

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=3840&sid=66129aad738a5d7a8de2bebf0c7b75ee

 

Here's a good discussion on what is the central channel vis a vis the nerves.

It is a good discussion.

 

Just from looking at them; it appears right and left channels are venal and arterial systems respectively; central channel would be the spinal cord. This would account for the interaction with the optic, vagus and phrenic nerves in the function of Ati yoga sadhana.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=3840&sid=75efe2361896479a9a9b77d1bd1afd5a&start=20

Edited August 4, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[Tibetan_Ice]

Drew, that link is somewhat bizarre.. Malcolm is saying that the central channel is the arterial system..

 

Why don't you ask Jim Nance if the right vagus nerve is the sushumna? Now that would be interesting, wouldn't it?