For those who have glimpsed 'no self'

[Marblehead]

Hi TzuJanLi and 3bob,

 

Nice exchange.

 

What Y'all refer to as "That which IS", I think, is what I refer to as one's "inner essence". But I have no problem with using the words "self (physical body) and Self (our inner essence)".

[Everything]

I think she's not alone. When you don't know who you are anymore, you have realized the truth, that you can never know and that is what is painful. It is painful, because burns you if you try to hold on to whatever aspect of the changing nature of who you are. Eventually, you will see, that whatever you choose, it is all intended to be good. You try to do better. Even if you intend to do bad, and worse, there is also a good intention behind it, otherwise we would not choose it.

 

I can say, that there is only, and that because one thing bad exists, all things are bad, just because of that one thing. I try to say that because I want all things to be good and I become angry and express my frustration when I see something bad, or unwanted.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Everything

[Ish]

Hi TzuJanLi and 3bob,

 

Nice exchange.

 

What Y'all refer to as "That which IS", I think, is what I refer to as one's "inner essence". But I have no problem with using the words "self (physical body) and Self (our inner essence)".

 

Hi Marblehead, can you describe what you mean by the Self or inner essence, perhaps some experiences you have with this?

[Marblehead]

I think she's not alone. When you don't know who you are anymore, you have realized the truth, that you can never know and that is what is painful. It is painful, because burns you if you try to hold on to whatever aspect of the changing nature of who you are. Eventually, you will see, that whatever you choose, whatever you can choose, it is all intended to be good. No matter what you choose. You try to be better and do better, no matter who you are, where you are or why you are.

So many things I want to speak to from this post but I will speak to only one:

 

When you don't know who you are anymore, you have realized the truth ...

 

Up to this point I am in total agreement. However, we can truely know ourself. This is part of what "cultivation" is all about. To stop being how we were told we needed to be and just "be". That is, just live spontaneously. (I wasn't able to live spontaneously until after I had retired. I'm sure many have reached that condition far earlier in their life.)

 

So anyhow, I think that once we don't know who we really are we have attained a first awakening. We realize that we have been trying to be who others want us to be. Time to do some soul searching.

[Marblehead]

Hi Marblehead, can you describe what you mean by the Self or inner essence, perhaps some experiences you have with this?

I'll do my best.

 

Our 'self' (lower case) is what we present to the world. It includes all our illusions and delusions and our ego for wanting to be recognized as a certain kind of person.

 

Our 'Self' (upper case) is who we are inside. (That's why I call it our inner essence.) This is presented to us mostly through our emotions. It also includes these thoughts we have like after we have done a certain thing or decided to do nothing, we think, "I should have done such and such instead of what I did simply because I was concerned as to how others would view me."

 

For most of us our 'self' and our 'Self' are different persona. This is why we (our self) are never at peace with our Self. When we become one is when we will be able to find contentment (with our condition) and peace within our heart. And we will be happy too!

[Everything]

So many things I want to speak to from this post but I will speak to only one:

 

When you don't know who you are anymore, you have realized the truth ...

 

Up to this point I am in total agreement. However, we can truely know ourself. This is part of what "cultivation" is all about. To stop being how we were told we needed to be and just "be". That is, just live spontaneously. (I wasn't able to live spontaneously until after I had retired. I'm sure many have reached that condition far earlier in their life.)

 

So anyhow, I think that once we don't know who we really are we have attained a first awakening. We realize that we have been trying to be who others want us to be. Time to do some soul searching.

Often, I just pray that I don't exist anymore, and sleep, but I allways wake up, so I gave that up. It is that idea of non-existance, that scares me into awakening when it is about to come and take me away. I turn around and run into all that I've ever known to be, as being this life. I can't seem to let go. I don't know how, I keep returning here, because it is all I've ever known, as far I know all that I have ever known.

 

Also, I have lost allot of freedom aswell. For example, when I acknowledge the existance of anything that is bad, I instantly see the inevitable result of that acknowledgement, being my self burning in eternal hellfire, in despair. I don't see how anything bad can lead to anything good. I used to be free to observe and monitor unwanted experienced, now they are a guiding rails. As I do not stay on track, I get burned and emmediatly pushed back on track. Whenever I feel bad about what I am saying, I cannot say it anymore, or I will ignore that I've said it. Like now... I never ignored what I've said, I simply focus on something else, because it is better and it is what I PREFER. I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO WANT BETTER. It hurts to much if I forget what I want or who I am. The pain is the only thing that reminds me. So that pain is good and helpful.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Lighten up on yourself Everything. It's life and life only (Bob Dylan).

 

Don't try to be perfect, just try to "be".

 

I can't say too much here as I can't see into your mind even though I can see your words.

 

Yes, we should try to be better at the good things we do in life. And we should try to avoid those things that cause us discomfort and negativity. (That why I stopped posting in the controversial threads for a short while. I had to re-ground my Self.)

 

Hehehe. Yeah, knowing ourself just might end up being pretty painful. If that is the case then I think we could say that we have work to do.

 

I will suggest that you do need to get your freedom back. That is one of the most important parts of being able to find inner peace. It has been only a couple years now that I have specifically identified myself as an Anarchist. Freedom, and free will, are very important to me.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Marblehead

[Everything]

Lighten up on yourself Everything. It's life and life only (Bob Dylan).

 

Don't try to be perfect, just try to "be".

 

I can't say too much here as I can't see into your mind even though I can see your words.

 

Yes, we should try to be better at the good things we do in life. And we should try to avoid those things that cause us discomfort and negativity. (That why I stopped posting in the controversial threads for a short while. I had to re-ground my Self.)

 

Hehehe. Yeah, knowing ourself just might end up being pretty painful. If that is the case then I think we could say that we have work to do.

 

I will suggest that you do need to get your freedom back. That is one of the most important parts of being able to find inner peace. It has been only a couple years now that I have specifically identified myself as an Anarchist. Freedom, and free will, are very important to me.

Yeah, you are free, and if you did not allow yourself to be that which you are, other people could not be themselves aswell. As the servants need a master to serve, if there is no master, the servant is as good as dead. The joy of service can no longer be expressed, because the master is unwilling to acknowledge his worthiness of being served, and unwilling to be loved unconditionally and thus choacks the life out of the loving servant aswell as himself. Does that make sense? The greatest respect one can show for a fellow companion of life, is to be yourself as much as you can.

 

In other words, to give out the command of freedom to a slave is the most cruel thing one could ever do.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Everything

[idiot_stimpy]

 

O bird of the morning, learn love from the moth        Because it burnt, lost its life, and found no voice.        These pretenders are ignorantly in search of Him,        Because he who obtained knowledge has not returned.  O thou who art above all imaginations, conjectures, opinions and    ideas,  Above anything people have said or we have heard or read,  The assembly is finished and life has reached its term  And we have, as at first, remained powerless in describing thee.

[Everything]

 

 

O bird of the morning, learn love from the moth        Because it burnt, lost its life, and found no voice.        These pretenders are ignorantly in search of Him,        Because he who obtained knowledge has not returned.  O thou who art above all imaginations, conjectures, opinions and    ideas,  Above anything people have said or we have heard or read,  The assembly is finished and life has reached its term  And we have, as at first, remained powerless in describing thee.

That sounds like a suicide note

 

I don't believe anyone has ever died though.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Everything

[rene]

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

TJL,

I use the terms in the following way: "That which IS" experiences itself free of any form of mind identification thus knowing a happiness that is not of mind or in any way dependent upon the mind where the powers of sorrow and or death can reach.

 

Om

I'm unaware of the capacity for you/me/we/us to experience "that is not of mind or in any way dependent upon the mind where the powers of sorrow and or death can reach".. at best, we have the capacity to suspend the mind's active thinking processes and experience liberation from attachment such that the imagined powers of sorrow and death do not influence the 'now' experience.. sorrow and death happen, any power they have is granted by the experiencer, and the 'still mind' suspends the effects of 'powers granted'.. this realization can lead to a liberated peacefulness..

 

We/us/Life and the common medium of mind ARE 'That which IS', happiness, sorrow, and transformation/death ARE 'That which IS' experiencing its own existence.. it is our attachment to the desirability between contrasting principles within that experiencing that distorts our relationships with existence.. rather than attaching to particular 'stories about' what is actually happening, suspending the thinking processes that animate those 'stories' allows us to see/experience what is actually happening with clarity..

 

It is that Clarity that informs us of the actuality of our relationship with 'That which IS', and.. in the absence of the mind's active manipulation of our awareness of experiencing/existing, the resonance between our individuality and our holistic wholeness is manifested as a natural fluid dynamism, unhindered by the conflicts inherent with 'minding'/thinking.. this is the wisdom of practices that train and encourage the 'still mind' perspective..

 

Be well..

[Everything]

My life as being completely lost is not really that bad. It's pretty enjoyable and fun most of the time!

 

The heart pumps blood for us, the hands follow our commands, the eyes move in perfect alignement with our intentions for our visionary experience. All of the light that we perceive is flown to us, allways. Never ever did it stop flowing. We are allowed to breath, as far as we can breath and experience the scent of life, and the variety of such is a given! We are never questioned in identity or worthiness for the receiving of such, and our deservingness for the receiving of this experience is a given. You are allowed to experience whatever thoughts arise in its fullness, and you can choose which thoughts are more preferable to give your attention to and promote those kind of thoughts. Whatever experiences feel better, whatever feelings are preferable to you.

 

And when you are tired, you are free to melt away into the loving embrace and caring support of your eternal and unending center of well-being from which all experiences eternally flow. Sleeping is one of the best things that exist. And usually, we love our permission to sleep as much as we want to. We will wake up feeling refreshed and thus more eager for the experiences we have. We have no resistance towards these experiences, because we are all well rested and whatever comes, at worse, will have you falling asleep!

 

And if you're tired, feel free to sleep, so that you may become rested once again. It's a lovely cycle of life. Eventually, if you sleep long enough, then the fun will start come and wake you up, to remind you that there's something more and beyond of what you've ever known to be! CALLING YOU FOR MORE and MORE! When you are rested, these joyful experiences will find you and come and wake you up in whatever rate perfectly is comfortable to you.

 

Edited July 28, 2013 by Everything

[idiot_stimpy]

 

Who washes his hands of life

Says whatever he has in his heart.

[Marblehead]

Does that make sense?

Almost.

 

The greatest respect one can show for a fellow companion of life, is to be yourself as much as you can.

Totally agree.

 

In other words, to give out the command of freedom to a slave is the most cruel thing one could ever do.

Now you are talking like Nietzsche.

[Marblehead]

Death comes in all shapes and sizes.

 

One must die so the other may live.

[Everything]

Death comes in all shapes and sizes.

 

One must die so the other may live.

It's too bad that dead things can't be consumed

 

They're waaaaay to subtle to our grasp.

[rene]

Death comes in all shapes and sizes.

 

One must die so the other may live.

 

Every moment is one of equal creation and destruction; such is the way of Tao.

[Everything]

Almost.

 

Totally agree.

 

Now you are talking like Nietzsche.

Good, he has nice mustache. I like this mustache. I can save spices for cooking in mustache. But when mustache flies away, then I am lost, but mustache allways returns. So all is well.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Everything

[idiot_stimpy]

 

I spent my precious life in hopes, alas!        That every desire of my heart will be fulfilled.        My wishes were realized, but to what profit? Since        There is no hope that my past life will return.        The hand of fate has struck the drum of departure.        O my two eyes, bid farewell to the head.        O palm, forearm, and arm of my hand,        All take leave from each other.        Death, the foe of my desires, has fallen on me        For the last time, O friends. Pass near me.        My life has elapsed in ignorance.        I have done nothing, be on your guard.

[rene]

 

 

I spent my precious life in hopes, alas!        That every desire of my heart will be fulfilled.        My wishes were realized, but to what profit? Since        There is no hope that my past life will return.        The hand of fate has struck the drum of departure.        O my two eyes, bid farewell to the head.        O palm, forearm, and arm of my hand,        All take leave from each other.        Death, the foe of my desires, has fallen on me        For the last time, O friends. Pass near me.        My life has elapsed in ignorance.        I have done nothing, be on your guard.

 

Yon rising Moon that looks for us again--

How oft hereafter will she wax and wane;

How oft hereafter rising look for us

Through this same Garden--and for one in vain!

 

 

And when like her, oh, Saki, you shall pass

Among the Guests Star-scatter'd on the Grass,

And in your joyous errand reach the spot

Where I made One--turn down an empty Glass!

[Marblehead]

It's too bad that dead things can't be consumed

 

They're waaaaay to subtle to our grasp.

Yeah, those things that die a 'natural' death may be diseased and therefore should not be eaten.

 

Some animals have the digestive system for such things though.

[3bob]

TJL,

Thank you for the feedback.

 

My take: Mind is a medium as you say but limited to time(s), space(s) and the things that are part and parcel to same. (and which could be said to be relatively real within the parameters of such) Further, the stilling of time(s) space(s) and related things is a mastery of and also a compassionate detachment from same yet if to some degree a particular individuality-identification-relationship is still in force at that point then same is not enough to fully inform or free, even if such was on a cosmic or god like scale...

 

...for only that which truly IS can fully inform itself as that which truly IS, thus going beyond eternal cycles and iteration's of itself as we/us/life/mind that all take place now.

Edited July 29, 2013 by 3bob

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

TJL,
Thank you for the feedback.

My take: Mind is a medium as you say but limited to time(s), space(s) and the things that are part and parcel to same. (and which could be said to be relatively real within the parameters of such) Further, the stilling of time(s) space(s) and related things is a mastery of and also a compassionate detachment from same yet if to some degree a particular individuality-identification-relationship is still in force at that point then same is not enough to fully inform or free, even if such was on a cosmic or god like scale...

...for only that which truly IS can fully inform itself as that which truly IS, thus going beyond eternal cycles and iteration's of itself as we/us/life/mind that all take place now.

Hi 3B: Thank you for the discussion.. we differ in our understanding of 'isness', it seems.. "That which truly IS", 'is' in relation (time/space) to its absence.. that we can relate to 'that', establishes the actuality of individuality.. what we are describing is indescribable without 'mind', and with mind there is the challenge of discerning actuality from imagined stories 'about' actuality.. for that purpose there is the natural function of intelligence and 'feeling', and of mind, and.. in order to discern actuality from imagination and illusion i 'feel' the resonance, and i sense the naturally reasonable and plausible understanding of what is actually happening..

You state: "the stilling of time(s) space(s) and related things is a mastery of and also a compassionate detachment from same yet if to some degree a particular individuality-identification-relationship is still in force at that point then same is not enough to fully inform or free",..but, in the absence of the observer/individual that experiences/reports the experience, no information is realized or passed between whole and part, and between parts.. it is possible to still the mind, attain clarity, and experience the nature of reality.. i can 'imagine' stilling time/space, but i cannot apply reason and plausibility to that as an actuality.. we might imagine that time is still, but when the imagining ceases the actuality is that there has been an interval/duration between beginning the imagining and ending the imagining, time has continued, regardless of any belief to the contrary..

 

The practice i have found most revealing is to set aside those thoughts. ideas, beliefs, 'knowings' that cannot stand-up under the scrutiny of reasonable and plausible relation with what is actually happening right here, right now.. when the mind is still and clear, when there is no influences from beliefs and preferences or fears, what remains constant and consistent in that 'now' presence? If it is not self-evident, if there is no example other than belief/concept/idea, set it aside.. carve away what isn't consistent with what is actually happening, don't discard it just quarantine it, there may be new information/experience that reveals unforeseen relationships.. there is more mystery and potential in what 'is' actually happening, than our imaginations are are capable of conjuring, but.. i find so many people blurring the lines between reality and fantasy simply because that's what they 'want'.. let that go, too.. when we can let go of belief and knowing, and be present as a clean slate upon which 'now' reveals its 'isness', we will have experienced liberation..

 

Yikes!! i didn't intend to ramble so much, it just happened..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

Yikes!! i didn't intend to ramble so much, it just happened..

That is called spontaneous "being".