Bias against New Age

[skydog]

There is a story of jesus, whether or not you believe in him travelling to persia, India, Tibet, China and learning all his spiritual practices there for 16 years, he was reported to severely dislike the tight hierarchiachal structure of the religious instituitions and attacked the way they withheld information and power.

[Stosh]

I'm just wondering, maybe this is understood, so I am just tossing it out there, If a person starts a response, and decides to let that dog lie, if they hit the back button, the message will be aborted if it hasn't been submitted.

[RongzomFan]

There is a story of jesus, whether or not you believe in him travelling to persia, India, Tibet, China and learning all his spiritual practices there for 16 years, he was reported to severely dislike the tight hierarchiachal structure of the religious instituitions and attacked the way they withheld information and power.

 

seriously, I don't give a fuck about jesus

[rene]

Jetsun, on 04 Aug 2013 - 14:40, said:

There is a history of people being given Dharma teachings through spirits.

 

No there isn't.

 

Jetsun, on 04 Aug 2013 - 14:40, said:

>

The Dalai Lama used a spirit guide to avoid the Chinese invading armies when he escaped Tibet and the government in exile consults oracles regularly to help formulate policy.

 

They use the Neichung oracle, which is a mundane gyalpo subjugated by Padmasambhava, as only one source of information. The Dalai Lama clearly says this in a youtube video. And Tibetans don't channel spirit guides for their practice as you were saying.

 

Jetsun, on 04 Aug 2013 - 14:40, said:

So its ok for someone like Dudjom Lingpa to teach from spirit instruction but if a Westerner writes a book like "A Course in Miracles" its somehow not as authentic?

 

You are completely clueless.

 

 

You guys are making New Age look better and better by the post.

 

Just sayin.

[Tibetan_Ice]

The Tibetans use spirit guides for their practices and for channelling etc, so its ok for them but if Westerners do it from their traditions they are evil trickster spirits? just sounds like hypocricy to me

 

 

It sound like hypocrisy, because you are just making shit up.

 

Hi Alwaysoff

Trolling again? Incapable of understanding Buddhist writings from the Western mentality?

 

What exactly do you think that Dudjom Lingpa was doing when he "received these teachings in visionary dialog with fourteen enlightened beings, including Avalokiteshvara, Vajrapani, Lonchengpa, and Sahara" if he wasn't channeling?

 

http://www.buddhismplace.com/page/dudjom-lingpa/73785581

 

 

The Dudjom lineage, based on the terma revealed by Dudjom Lingpa and his immediate rebirth, His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche, late head of the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism, is one of the principal modern lineages of Dzogchen transmission. These instructions were received by the nineteenth-century master Dudjom Lingpa in a visionary dialogue with fourteen enlightened beings, including Avalokiteshvara, Vajrapani, Longchenpa, and Saraha.

 

 

Even Milarepa had visions in dreams and spirits (dead guys) appearing to him..

 

http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/Milarepa/Milarepa.htm

 

 

Meanwhile, the day before Milarepa arrived, Marpa the Translator had a dream in which his own Guru, the Great Saint Naropa appeared to him and gave him a five pointed dorje (i.e. sceptre) made of the precious gem lapis lazuli. The dorje, however, was slightly tarnished and Naropa urged him to wash the dirt off with an elixir of holy water from a golden pot until it shone in splendour and then to raise it up upon a Banner of Victory. In his dream Marpa saw that the dorje, once polished and raised up emitted a brilliant radiance that shone on all the sentient beings in the six Lokas (the physical and spiritual realms or worlds). In his dream, the spectacle of the radiant dorje was blessed with the benedictions of the Victorious Ones (previous humanity who had passed into the state of Buddhahood, or enlightenment).

 

 

 

Oh! Milarepa must have been new age! He was given lapis lazuli, a very popular new age gem!! There you have it. Milarepa was New Age!

 

 

TI

Edited August 4, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[idiot_stimpy]

There is a story of jesus, whether or not you believe in him travelling to persia, India, Tibet, China and learning all his spiritual practices there for 16 years, he was reported to severely dislike the tight hierarchiachal structure of the religious instituitions and attacked the way they withheld information and power.

 

 

This has apparently been going on over the ages.

 

You cannot get the secret knowledge unless you become one of us, by joining the priest class. This happened all the way back in ancient Egypt and probably before.

 

I can think of some reasons. Power and control, keeping the precious knowledge intact, the knowledge being too dangerous to those who are not ready for it.

[RongzomFan]

every school and area has its own spirit protector.

 

You are missing the whole point. Mundane spirits have to be subjugated to be useful. Their intrinsic nature is deviant.

[idiot_stimpy]

In terms of dealing with spirits, I would look to the 'Bon' of Tibet.

[RongzomFan]

Hi Alwaysoff

Trolling again? Incapable of understanding Buddhist writings from the Western mentality?

 

What exactly do you think that Dudjom Lingpa was doing when he "received these teachings in visionary dialog with fourteen enlightened beings, including Avalokiteshvara, Vajrapani, Lonchengpa, and Sahara" if he wasn't channeling?

 

http://www.buddhismplace.com/page/dudjom-lingpa/73785581

 

 

 

Even Milarepa had visions in dreams and spirits (dead guys) appearing to him..

 

http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/Milarepa/Milarepa.htm

 

 

 

 

Oh! Milarepa must have been new age! He was given lapis lazuli, a very popular new age gem!! There you have it. Milarepa was New Age!

 

 

Once Tibetan Ice supports your position, you know you are wrong.

[Jetsun]

The whole thing with Shugden, is that Shugden is a mundane deviant trickster spirit.

 

So the Tibetans gets to pick and choose which spirits are good, but for some reason all of the ones the New Age guys use are evil or trickster, why? because some Tibetan said so.

[skydog]

Tibetan Buddhism is a mixture of Bon Shamanism and "Buddhism"

 

Trying to define "Buddhism" or "Shamanism"

 

is very difficult, like trying to define Zen.

 

Buddha used words as a way to point to the moon, but these were not to clinged to and depended on a persons weaknesses.

Edited August 4, 2013 by skydog

[teknix]

Their belief must be considered superior by them as anyone else generally considers theirs superior?

Edited August 4, 2013 by teknix

[RongzomFan]

So the Tibetans gets to pick and choose which spirits are good, but for some reason all of the ones the New Age guys use are evil or trickster, why? because some Tibetan said so.

 

What don't you seem to understand? Mundane spirits have to be subjugated by tantric means and become oath bound.

 

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

[teknix]

It's their belief soit gets added significance from self.

[RongzomFan]

Tibetan Buddhism is a mixture of Bon Shamanism and "Buddhism"

 

How is that possible? Bon came way after Buddhism in Tibet. This is basic history.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA99&dq=Tibet+Sam+van+schaik+In,+fact+the+Bonpo+religion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JpQWUeW-No2v0AHL94H4Bg&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Tibet%20Sam%20van%20schaik%20In%2C%20fact%20the%20Bonpo%20religion&f=false

[Jetsun]

What don't you seem to understand? Mundane spirits have to be subjugated by tantric means and become oath bound.

 

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

 

What has been the result of them applying this to their spirits? Tibet has been destroyed and their protector spirits couldn't do anything to stop it. While many of the countries which have been subjected to Christian spirits and the spirit of Jesus prosper without any tantric oaths

[RongzomFan]

So the Tibetans gets to pick and choose which spirits are good, but for some reason all of the ones the New Age guys use are evil or trickster, why? because some Tibetan said so.

 

The Fifth Dalai Lama tried to subjugate Shugden, but the process failed.

[skydog]

How is that possible? Bon came way after Buddhism in Tibet. This is basic history.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA99&dq=Tibet+Sam+van+schaik+In,+fact+the+Bonpo+religion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JpQWUeW-No2v0AHL94H4Bg&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Tibet%20Sam%20van%20schaik%20In%2C%20fact%20the%20Bonpo%20religion&f=false

 

 

I have a book "Tibetan Book of Dream Yoga" Also another one I gave away after I read it about "positive thinking and tibetan buddhism"

 

By Tibetan masters,

 

You may tell me according to your perception they are not masters, but whatever they have 30 years experience, since a child.

 

They say Buddhism came to the region and the empire/country was trying to make the country buddhist, but they made it more integrated with the previous religion of Bon.

 

Well shamanism is a lot older than religion is so it make sense to me.

[Tibetan_Ice]

How is that possible? Bon came way after Buddhism in Tibet. This is basic history.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA99&dq=Tibet+Sam+van+schaik+In,+fact+the+Bonpo+religion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JpQWUeW-No2v0AHL94H4Bg&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Tibet%20Sam%20van%20schaik%20In%2C%20fact%20the%20Bonpo%20religion&f=false

 

Alwaysoff,

 

Bön (Tib: bon). Bön is the indigenous spiritual tradition of Tibet. It predates Indian Buddhism. Although scholars disagree about the origin of Bön, the tradition itself claims an unbroken lineage seventeen thousand years old. Similar to Tibetan Buddhist sects, particularly the Nyingma, Bön is distinguished by a distinctive iconography, a rich shamanic tradition, and a separate lineage reaching back to the Buddha Shenrab Miwoche rather than to Shakyamuni Buddha.

 

Rinpoche, Tenzin Wangyal (2002-05-25). Healing with Form, Energy, and Light: The Five Elements in Tibetan Shamanism, Tantra, and Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 3189-3192). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

From Tenzin Wangyal himself.

[skydog]

Tenzin Wangyal

 

Yeh, I think it was him.

[RongzomFan]

From Tenzin Wangyal himself.

 

How many times have we covered this?

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26705-theravada-and-mahayana/

 

That's terma history, not actual history.

[skydog]

Knowing history is also tricky, since primary evidence/secondary evidence is not very easy to find.

 

I mean people dont really know about the bosnian/chinese/japanese underwater pyramids let alone other things.

 

Anyways I read this message from your link about mahayana

 

"

 

As I learned, both are under one banner, "Buddhism", meaning there should be no differentiation as in making schools, though people have done so any way. The Buddha taught according to the level of understanding of the people he met, and those who became his disciples. Some needed a certain way and others needed something else...like medicinal herbal concoctions. In order to get some to awaken, he taught one way, and then when their capacities increased, he taught another method to get them further.

 

Whichever worked for the cultivator, he gave them the needed teaching method."

[idiot_stimpy]

How is that possible? Bon came way after Buddhism in Tibet. This is basic history.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA99&dq=Tibet+Sam+van+schaik+In,+fact+the+Bonpo+religion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JpQWUeW-No2v0AHL94H4Bg&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Tibet%20Sam%20van%20schaik%20In%2C%20fact%20the%20Bonpo%20religion&f=false

 

 

That's debatable. Some say Animistic Bon was dominant before Buddhism spread from India. It could be suggested that the Bon of today is not the same as the Animistic Bon.

[RongzomFan]

That's debatable. Some say Animistic Bon was dominant before Buddhism spread from India. It could be suggested that the Bon of today is not the same as the Animistic Bon.

 

I would read Sam van Schaik's book and blog.

 

Basically the only religion before Buddhism, was a funerary religion. And it wasn't called Bon.

 

The first mentions of Bon are post-Buddhist.

[skydog]

What is animistic Bon?

 

Working with animal spirits

 

Imitating animal movements.

 

.

Edited August 4, 2013 by skydog