Bias against New Age

[Thunder_Gooch]

I am in complete opposition to what you are advocating.

 

That men should lie down and accept their fate and be ok with the obliteration of their consciousness via death, instead of trying to do something about the situation they are in.

 

I actually posted a thread about this very thing in off topic not too long ago.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30765-the-fable-of-the-dragon-tyrant/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't think we were particularly arguing, but I am completely positive I am not talking about a soporific opiate similar to religious beliefs, I am talking about realising the consciousness which is beyond beliefs altogether which is perfectly at peace with whatever happens. This is what most genuine Buddhist paths are pointing at and also what new age teachers like Byron Katie are directing people towards

Edited July 28, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

We can agree to disagree. Best of luck on your path.

 

 

I didn't think we were particularly arguing, but I am completely positive I am not talking about a soporific opiate similar to religious beliefs, I am talking about realising the consciousness which is beyond beliefs altogether which is perfectly at peace with whatever happens. This is what most genuine Buddhist paths are pointing at and also what new age teachers like Byron Katie are directing people towards

Edited July 28, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Jetsun]

I am completely 180 degrees opposed to what you are advocating.

 

That men should lie down and accept their fate and be ok with the obliteration of their consciousness via death, instead of trying to do something about the situation they are in.

 

I actually posted a thread about this very thing in off topic not too long ago.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30765-the-fable-of-the-dragon-tyrant/

 

 

I understand where you are coming from and I wish you luck on your path too, but I want to try to make the point that if your fundamental identity has shifted out from your individual separate consciousness into non-dual that means that you are now identified with the all, therefore you will not die when your body and mind dies as your identity is identified with all awareness , you are all that exists so how can you really die?.

 

Which is why some teachers say before you try to manipulate your energy and do all that stuff you should try find out who or what you really are, what is the one who is doing all the exercises and trying to do all they can to break the cycle of liberation? It's probably something you have heard a hundred times and I didn't really take the investigation that seriously myself until recently when I had an experience which shifted my perspective on all this stuff.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Let's continue this here ok.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30773-nonduality-jetsun-and-mpg-discussion/

 

 

I understand where you are coming from and I wish you luck on your path too, but I want to try to make the point that if your fundamental identity has shifted out from your individual separate consciousness into non-dual that means that you are now identified with the all, therefore you will not die when your body and mind dies as your identity is identified with all awareness , you are all that exists so how can you really die?.

Which is why some teachers say before you try to manipulate your energy and do all that stuff you should try find out who or what you really are, what is the one who is doing all the exercises and trying to do all they can to break the cycle of liberation? It's probably something you have heard a hundred times and I didn't really take the investigation that seriously myself until recently when I had an experience which shifted my perspective on all this stuff.

Edited July 28, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Tibetan_Ice]

Just in case you missed the sarcasm in my last post, don't jump out of an air plane and expect to land safely because believing will make it true.

 

What you believe about reality in no way affects how reality behaves or actually is.

 

Reality exists independent from what you believe about it.

 

The paradigm you espouse is pure delusion, and people who hold such beliefs are the reason no one will ever take real schools and real masters seriously.

 

I see no point in us ever having any discussion on this forum in public or private ever again.

 

Best wishes on your path.

 

Hi MPG

Well if you can't get past the superficial empirical level at which you stuck, perhaps there is no point in talking to you.

 

Sarcasm never goes over well in written words.

 

Judging by your statement "What you believe about reality in no way affects how reality behaves or actually is." I guess you have never heard about the double slit electron experiment, where it is said that the very act of observing the path of the electron alters its path. We are inextricably bound to our realities, there is no separate reality from us. Pehaps one day science will ketchup.

 

But to answer your question: "How does a realization help you change the situation you are in?"

 

When you finally realize that you are dreaming you can do several things: You can wake up, or you can remain in the dream and start flying around, you can marvel at the clarity and brightness, you can walk through walls, you can make things appear, like flowers or scary animals, you come to realize that you are the creator in your dream and you can create anything you'd like.

 

Life is a dream. Some people have woken up. They woke up by learning to unlock the secrets of the heart through the acquisition of knowledge and insight.

 

 

TI

[Thunder_Gooch]

If you understood the ultimate nature of reality, accumulated the energy and other requirements to manifest amazing abilities, there would be logical and rational explanations for the abilities.

 

You couldn't just believe gravity would stop working and force everyone on earth into outer-space because you changed your mind one morning.

 

I know that more than most believe possible, is actually possible. It isn't however wishcraft or magic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi MPG

Well if you can't get past the superficial empirical level at which you stuck, perhaps there is no point in talking to you.

 

Sarcasm never goes over well in written words.

 

Judging by your statement "What you believe about reality in no way affects how reality behaves or actually is." I guess you have never heard about the double slit electron experiment, where it is said that the very act of observing the path of the electron alters its path. We are inextricably bound to our realities, there is no separate reality from us. Pehaps one day science will ketchup.

 

But to answer your question: "How does a realization help you change the situation you are in?"

 

When you finally realize that you are dreaming you can do several things: You can wake up, or you can remain in the dream and start flying around, you can marvel at the clarity and brightness, you can walk through walls, you can make things appear, like flowers or scary animals, you come to realize that you are the creator in your dream and you can create anything you'd like.

 

Life is a dream. Some people have woken up. They woke up by learning to unlock the secrets of the heart through the acquisition of knowledge and insight.

 

TI

[nine tailed fox]

@Tibetan_Ice i would like to know,

 

to how much extent our beliefs affect our reality ?

 

are our chakras, chi energy, energy channels also product of our belief ?

 

and what would happen if i believe that my third eye chakra is situated at root chakra and root chakra is between the eyebrows ?

 

will this work ? it should work theoretically

Edited July 29, 2013 by nine tailed fox

[C T]

[Stosh]

Thats a reasonable attitude.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

@Tibetan_Ice i would like to know,

 

to how much extent our beliefs affect our reality ?

 

are our chakras, chi energy, energy channels also product of our belief ?

 

and what would happen if i believe that my third eye chakra is situated at root chakra and root chakra is between the eyebrows ?

 

will this work ? it should work theoretically

 

If belief is the basis of reality, then I never had a brain until I believed I had a brain.

Schrödinger's cat

 

[RongzomFan]

Let me ask this.

 

What kind of special method does New Age have?

 

Buddhism has even wake-induced lucid dreaming!

[Creation]

I went to a New Agey place this weekend hoping to meet some spiritually minded people. There were several people who seemed to be making spiritual progress following their path, and I felt like I "clicked" with them on a personal level as well.

 

I looked at their book shelf and there were a bunch of books about Kundalini, Quantum Physics, and the teachings of the Buddha. These are three subjects that I happen to have researched extensively, and as such it seemed to me that these books did not actually have much to do with the traditional understanding of these subjects. That is my personal "bias against the New Age".

 

All these strongly judgmental and condemning thoughts came to my mind, and a sense that I was better than them because I had the correct understanding of these subjects. Those thoughts occur to me when ever I come across New Age stuff, and I don't think too much of it. But in this case I was especially strongly convicted of my own pride and arrogance, because there I was trying to befriend these people, and yet I was looking down my nose at them.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Creation

[Tibetan_Ice]

If you understood the ultimate nature of reality, accumulated the energy and other requirements to manifest amazing abilities, there would be logical and rational explanations for the abilities.

 

You couldn't just believe gravity would stop working and force everyone on earth into outer-space because you changed your mind one morning.

 

I know that more than most believe possible, is actually possible. It isn't however wishcraft or magic.

MPG,

Well, no, you couldn't jump out of plane and land on your feet in one piece, still alive without a parachute or some other scheme (like 007, when he steals someone else's parachute on the way down). And I seriously doubt that you could believe that you wouldn't die, that you could just switch your mind to believe it. You aren't capable of that. You have too much karma and subconscious programming that is set, solified and dried. You're still very much on the surface. A belief that you wouldn't die if you jumped out of a plane with no parachute has to come from a very deep place of conviction, because just switching a thought from "I will die" to "I will not die" will not do it.

 

However, Jesus, Buddha, Milarepa and other realized beings could jump off the plane and live to tell about it. Now why is that? I strongly suspect that they don't even have belief systems in their minds, it would be pure gnosis (knowledge derived while enlightened).

 

A belief is a conglomerate of conceptual thought. What your conscious mind repeats to itself programs the subconscious. If you go around thinking and making the little voice in your head say "I am such an idiot", then the subconscious will manifest that. Go around repeating to youself "you make me sick" and you will become sick. The Huna religion, which I'm sure you did not read, is about how you must convince the lower self, through props and rituals before miraculous healings can take place. It is very similar to programming the subconscious mind, same principles, different terminology.

 

If you want a pretty good rendition of how belief, the voice in the head, the subconscious and programming are influencing your current state, I would suggest reading this post by Dawg: http://thetaobums.com/topic/30012-a-path-to-enlightenment/

 

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

@Tibetan_Ice i would like to know,

 

to how much extent our beliefs affect our reality ?

 

are our chakras, chi energy, energy channels also product of our belief ?

 

and what would happen if i believe that my third eye chakra is situated at root chakra and root chakra is between the eyebrows ?

 

will this work ? it should work theoretically

 

Gee, I would like to know all that stuff too!

 

One day, while circumambulating the main temple at Nland, Candrakirti hit his head

on a pillar. A scholar who was with him asked, “You are the believer in the selfnaturelessness

of both persons and phenomena. Why, then, does anything happen

when your head hits the column?” The Bodhisattva replied, “Column? What column?”

and put his hand through the column as though it were not there. Another time there

was an extremely heavy rainy season, and all the cows sought shelter deep in the

jungle. The monks wanted milk and said to Candrakirti, “If everything is really without

an intrinsic nature of its own, why donʹt you get us some milk from that picture of a

cow?” Candrakirti milked the cow in the picture and presented the milk to the Sangha.

In such ways he led many followers of the other Mahayana schools to the Prsagika‐

Mdhyamika. (Wangyal 1978, 28)

 

Edited July 29, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[Stosh]

I went to a New Agey place this weekend hoping to meet some spiritually minded people. There were several people who seemed to be making spiritual progress following their path, and I felt like I "clicked" with them on a personal level as well.

 

I looked at their book shelf and there were a bunch of books about Kundalini, Quantum Physics, and the teachings of the Buddha. These are three subjects that I happen to have researched extensively, and as such it seemed to me that these books did not actually have much to do with the traditional understanding of these subjects. That is my personal "bias against the New Age".

 

All these strongly judgmental and condemning thoughts came to my mind, and a sense that I was better than them because I had the correct understanding of these subjects. Those thoughts occur to me when ever I come across New Age stuff, and I don't think too much of it. But in this case I was especially strongly convicted of my own pride and arrogance, because there I was trying to befriend these people, and yet I was looking down my nose at them.

Nicely said ,agreed , even so, I myself find it very difficult to let go of my convictions. I suppose the more I can the better off I might be.

But then someone says they can survive a fall of thousands of feet -based on their sentiments- and I have to start all over again!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

It's not either/or, new age vs traditional, right/wrong.. it's about finding the clarity to see/experience what is actually happening, rather than what is thought/believed to be happening..

 

Life in not a dream, dreams are dreams and Life is Life.. some of the problems in Life are sourced from misuse of language, redefining words to mean what we want them to mean, and failure to honestly scrutinize the beliefs and knowledge we hold as 'true'..

 

The Universe/Cosmos has not yet finished creating itself or discovering its potential to do so, so it is irrational to assume that any 'truth' is immutable.. some wise person once accurately observed that "the Universal constant is change", and it is my experience that the absence of change is stagnation, death..

 

Knowledge and belief are the lenses through which what is actually happening is seen/experienced.. if, and it is very likely, you have been conditioned by the socio-religious processes to see and experience within a context designed to perpetuate those socio-religious processes, it is essential that you find the clarity to see/experience reality.. if you cannot see/experience what 'is', it is not possible to understand your relationship with what 'is', or to navigate through the deceptions and illusions that are designed to separate you from that clarity..

 

If we are distracted by labels like right/wrong, new-age vs traditional, either/or, we will not be paying attention to what is actually happening.. i find elements of workable understanding in almost every perspective, but i couldn't if i was attached to 'this' or 'that'.. at some point, if you are honestly pursuing reality, it becomes necessary to let go of all beliefs and knowings, to allow what is actually happening to reveal itself independent of the prior socio-religious conditionings..

 

That which remains consistently present after we no longer believe in it, after we have exhausted all efforts to disprove it, and which maintains a reasonable and plausible working relationship with what is actually happening, is worthy of consideration as something 'understood' to be valid within the current context of human consciousness.. speculation and 'stories about' what is directly experienced distort clarity and create ambiguity for those seeking their own authenticity and clarity..

 

Still the mind's active thinking processes, so that beliefs and knowings do not distort what is experienced, in this way labels like 'new-age' and 'traditional', and 'truth' do not influence the experience.. no evaluation or analysis is valid if it begins with distorted data or conditioned beliefs..

 

Be well..

[nine tailed fox]

Edited July 30, 2013 by nine tailed fox

[3bob]

Rhetorical like question:

 

If "the One" is One what is yet to be finished or created to add to the One. (or totality of mind if you will)

 

If you agree with that drift then mind is ultimately finished and creation is only apparent or relative since whatever particular form or slice of creation an individual mind is paying attention to already exists somewhere in the big or totality of mind, its just that the individual mind seems to be coming upon it for the first time. For instance (although not the best analogy) San Francisco already exists to those living there (and also to the totality of mind) but to an individual traveler headed there it doesn't seemingly exist until arrival of their individual mind and perception.

Edited July 30, 2013 by 3bob

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

bnlah blah blah blah... have a single thought.

Do it.
no, don't stare at me like im crazy, though the thoughts involved DO qualify, just work with me a moment, plese.


Think something. with deliberation, have a thought.


Didja? Did ya do it? Yer done? You had a thought?





POW!!! INFINITE UNIVERSES, EXPERIENCES, GALAXIES, WORLD, PEOPLE. you just created them with that single thought. you are responsible for far much more than you can ever know. than I can ever know.


the mundane daily grind which you worry about on a daily basis I take for granted, those thoughts you wield on a daily basis which you take for granted are holy and sacred reality altering relics to me.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

bnlah blah blah blah... have a single thought.

Do it.
no, don't stare at me like im crazy, though the thoughts involved DO qualify, just work with me a moment, plese.


Think something. with deliberation, have a thought.


Didja? Did ya do it? Yer done? You had a thought?





POW!!! INFINITE UNIVERSES, EXPERIENCES, GALAXIES, WORLD, PEOPLE. you just created them with that single thought. you are responsible for far much more than you can ever know. than I can ever know.


the mundane daily grind which you worry about on a daily basis I take for granted, those thoughts you wield on a daily basis which you take for granted are holy and sacred reality altering relics to me.

 

"The mundane daily grind" reveals the fear that drives you down the woo woo rabbit hole known as your imagination.. what is 'real' is shared and understood by everyone, not just personal deluded imaginings..

 

Reality and science reveal 'actual' potential rather than the pointless imaginary blunderings of people who lack the creative vision to shape their own tangible reality..

 

Where are those "INFINITE UNIVERSES, EXPERIENCES, GALAXIES, WORLD, PEOPLE. you just created "?? where are they when you 'still the mind'? you and i can experience a tree with still mind clarity, and agree with what we see.. but, i cannot find the "INFINITE UNIVERSES, EXPERIENCES, GALAXIES, WORLD, PEOPLE. you just created", where are they?

 

People are suffering, abused, oppressed, and corruption is the agent of these conditions precisely because of people's avoidance of 'what is actually happening', because they are living in an imagined reality where they don't see and feel the the suffering of those that provide the goods and services that afford them the luxury of living in an imaginary playground..

 

Just still the mind, see what is actually happening..

 

Be well..

[Tibetan_Ice]

Greetings..

 

It's not either/or, new age vs traditional, right/wrong.. it's about finding the clarity to see/experience what is actually happening, rather than what is thought/believed to be happening..

 

Life in not a dream, dreams are dreams and Life is Life.. some of the problems in Life are sourced from misuse of language, redefining words to mean what we want them to mean, and failure to honestly scrutinize the beliefs and knowledge we hold as 'true'..

 

The Universe/Cosmos has not yet finished creating itself or discovering its potential to do so, so it is irrational to assume that any 'truth' is immutable.. some wise person once accurately observed that "the Universal constant is change", and it is my experience that the absence of change is stagnation, death..

Hi TJL

Let us scrutinize the belief and 'knowledge' that you hold as 'true'.

 

You say that the "the Universal constant is change", or it is the old saying that "Nothing is permanent except change".

 

If it were true that "Nothing is permanent except change" then the axiom that "Nothing is permanent except change" would itselft be subject to the same truth and therefore, would change. The snake bites its own tail.

 

When that axiom changes, it might produce truths like "Some things are permanent and some things change". Or perhaps "All things are permanent". Is that enough of a change to support that false truth? Yet you say that "the Universal constant is change" is "accurate".

 

Then, you claim that the "absence of change is stagnation, death..."

 

I can think of a few things that are permanent:

- The mathematical formula 1 + 1 = 2. It will never change. It is pure and permanent.

- The Buddhists claim that we have an indestructible drop in the heart, which carries on from life to life. "Indestructible" in my vocabulary means that it is imutable, incapable of being destroyed or changed.

- Many spiritual teachers proclaim that awareness/emptiness, the cognizant luminous 'space' that we are was never born and will never die. Is not something that is never born and will never die permanent?

 

According to your belief system, "The Universe/Cosmos has not yet finished creating itself". How do you know this? If, as Buddhists proclaim, everything is empty because of dependant origination, and that everything derives from a dependancy, then that dependancy is the formula for realizing that the future is predictable. Everything, all events are just predictable logical progressions, including thoughts, feelings, sensations...

 

What if everything was permanent, past, present, future and it is just us who are knowing the story, the dream in a sequential construct which makes it seem like it is moving and real, but in fact, all is already written in stone. Perhaps we are just needles on the phonograph record, resonating with whatever position in the groove we happen to be in, yet, the whole record has already been set.

 

Something to think about.

 

TI

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

your ass has a huge mouth for speaking out of...

I don't typically listen to people who display such a holier-than-thou effort in observations. you don't want to see a universe in your imagination: aint a thing I can do to show it to you.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

There is reality, and there is escape from it.. imagination is the most common escape, and the rationalizations for that escape are the beliefs people refuse to honestly scrutinize..

 

Math is symbolic representation, meaningless without 'that' which it represents.. to rationalize 'unchangeable' with math is to mistake the menu for the meal..

 

NAJA: yes, it's clear that you only listen to the deluded echoes of your own imagination, and i wish you well with that.. go in peace..

 

Be well..

[Thunder_Gooch]

TI,

 

No one could, even if they believed it and had been conditioned to believe it as absolute truth from the day of their birth.

 

What you do not understand is that ACTIONS affect reality, and beliefs do not.

 

There may be many ways a person could perform certain actions to prepare to survive such a fall without harm, but the simple act of believing it does not change reality.

 

I don't really have the time and energy to continue to argue with such a silly stance, so I kindly request you agree to disagree with me so we can both move on.

 

 

MPG,

Well, no, you couldn't jump out of plane and land on your feet in one piece, still alive without a parachute or some other scheme (like 007, when he steals someone else's parachute on the way down). And I seriously doubt that you could believe that you wouldn't die, that you could just switch your mind to believe it. You aren't capable of that. You have too much karma and subconscious programming that is set, solified and dried. You're still very much on the surface. A belief that you wouldn't die if you jumped out of a plane with no parachute has to come from a very deep place of conviction, because just switching a thought from "I will die" to "I will not die" will not do it.

 

However, Jesus, Buddha, Milarepa and other realized beings could jump off the plane and live to tell about it. Now why is that? I strongly suspect that they don't even have belief systems in their minds, it would be pure gnosis (knowledge derived while enlightened).

 

A belief is a conglomerate of conceptual thought. What your conscious mind repeats to itself programs the subconscious. If you go around thinking and making the little voice in your head say "I am such an idiot", then the subconscious will manifest that. Go around repeating to youself "you make me sick" and you will become sick. The Huna religion, which I'm sure you did not read, is about how you must convince the lower self, through props and rituals before miraculous healings can take place. It is very similar to programming the subconscious mind, same principles, different terminology.

 

If you want a pretty good rendition of how belief, the voice in the head, the subconscious and programming are influencing your current state, I would suggest reading this post by Dawg: http://thetaobums.com/topic/30012-a-path-to-enlightenment/

 

 

TI

Edited July 31, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

I keep hearing about "the secret", "the law of attraction", "creating reality", etc.

 

All of this is completely misunderstood.

 

You do not create reality, the future already existed before you were ever born. All possible realities exist uncreated, timeless, and perfectly still. What is moving are the mind streams flowing through these realities.

 

Each choice you make navigates you in and out of different realities all as real as any other, and you are not the only "you". There are an infinite number of minds who believe themselves to be you all observing realities almost identical to yours, the same for everyone you've ever met. Every possible reality that could exist, does exist, and every moment in time for those infinite realities is populated by a mind just as real as yours.

 

Every book, every song, every movie, every thought, everything, everyone, that is or ever could be already exists and has never been created.

 

There is no such thing as time, as the past didn't stop existing after you observed it, neither did the future come into being, as it existed before you observed it, the same for each future that accounts for the different choices you can make. They are all just as real (and just as "now") as the present moment you now experience.

 

What is moving is your mind, it is in motion, reality is still and motionless. There are an infinite number of minds all navigating in and out of all these realities every moment. They are not separate realities, as you make choices, you navigate and move between them.

 

You don't "create reality", you just observe it.

Edited July 31, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy