Chinese language questions.

[Yoda]

Some books that I plan on studying here. From what I understand, learning Han Chinese characters as a second language it is very important to avoid rote memorization techniques and rather to adopt learning about the characters in some detail each so that they start to make sense. The following books seem to teach in this way. I'll review them as I have the time to study them:

 

walk through San Francisco Chinatown plus etymologies of 288 basic characters... I've been studying this book for a few days and it is a nice entry into learning basic characters and focuses on etymology-friendly characters.

 

 

 

Also found that the "wiktionary" is a good place to find the meaning of a character if it's already online.

[Yoda]

Santa will bring me this

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chin...2668&sr=8-1

 

and this (hopefully I've been good!!)

 

http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Writing-Chin...ref=pd_sim_b_11

 

Some things can't be left dangling on the promise of my good behavior, so I've ordered these myself:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Characters-G.../ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

http://www.amazon.com/What-Character-That-...ref=pd_sim_b_12

 

I already have this: 288 etymology friendly type characters with Cantonese and Mandarin pronunciations geared for the newbie:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Chines.../ref=pd_sim_b_3

 

I have this, it's 'ok' so far, more Mandarin based: http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Language-His...ref=pd_sim_b_16

 

this Chinese character dictionary has both Cantonese and Mandarin romanizations... hard to use for total beginners, though: http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-English-Dict...010&sr=1-17

 

a basic Cantonese-English dictionary, also a bit overkill for the newbie as it turns out: http://www.amazon.com/English-Cantonese-Di...010&sr=1-19

[宁]

Yoda,

 

i'm learning Chinese in college, so being close to a learning environment, i have a fiew thoughts:

 

- HanYu is the official language in China, the manuals that we learn from are written in HanYu - i think it's the same as Mandarin.

- the manuals are The New Practical Chinese Reader, it has 5 volumes. We do 1 volume per semester, that is almost 400 new characters and expressions, almost over 800 per year.

- you'd think that after learning that much you are far ahead, think again, you can barely manage in a normal conversation with a Chinese.

- we are at the third workbook now, with some 40-50 new characters per lesson, and we do 1 lesson a week.

that's alot to learn, if you add English and Chinese Civilisation, two other courses with pretty much information.

- the manuals have also audio cd's, I also found the videos on youtube, they're pretty cool.

 

I just made an outline of the way it's taught in schools, I hope it helps. I need to add that the learning is pretty satisfactory to me, I was always fascinated with codes and stuff since i was a kid... i learn it with pleasure, and this makes all the difference. good luck!

 

L1

 

PS: how soon will you be able to know some decent Chinese? my teachers say, after i learn 2500 characters...

[~jK~]

Yoda,

 

i'm learning Chinese in college, so being close to a learning environment, i have a fiew thoughts:

 

- HanYu is the official language in China, the manuals that we learn from are written in HanYu - i think it's the same as Mandarin.

- the manuals are The New Practical Chinese Reader, it has 5 volumes. We do 1 volume per semester, that is almost 400 new characters and expressions, almost over 800 per year.

- you'd think that after learning that much you are far ahead, think again, you can barely manage in a normal conversation with a Chinese.

- we are at the third workbook now, with some 40-50 new characters per lesson, and we do 1 lesson a week.

that's alot to learn, if you add English and Chinese Civilisation, two other courses with pretty much information.

- the manuals have also audio cd's, I also found the videos on youtube, they're pretty cool.

 

I just made an outline of the way it's taught in schools, I hope it helps. I need to add that the learning is pretty satisfactory to me, I was always fascinated with codes and stuff since i was a kid... i learn it with pleasure, and this makes all the difference. good luck!

 

L1

 

PS: how soon will you be able to know some decent Chinese? my teachers say, after i learn 2500 characters...

 

Hi, L1

I'm in Hong Kong for over 10 years.

I think that TianhuaQigong, who has also replied to this subject, is from China and speaks the language. I am from USA.

 

A website that has the first lesson learned in Chinese schools - translated in English - side by side with the Chinese: http://tsoidug.org/dizigui_trans_simp.php

 

Written Chinese is essentially the same throughout China -only dialects are different -

Although - There are two 'main' types of written Chinese - Traditional and Simplified -

Simplified was done by Mao Tse Tung and is very close to Traditional but created to eliminate some of the repetitive characters formed since Huang Di did it last, over 2,000 years ago.

Simplified is used throughout mainland China in newspapers etc.

Traditional is for largely those studying history, philosophy, culture etc.

 

To begin learning to speak it - I suggest you get the Collins Mandarin Phrase book with CD isbn 978-0-00-724681-6 as it will teach your ear what to listen for.

The CD is simple with English spoken first and Putongwa second. Mandarin and Putongwa are the same - I use sleep learning techniques where I play the CD day and night.

 

Chinese call their language Putongwa. I've only seen foreigners call it Mandarin.

 

The Chinese say to learn it, do it like a baby does by learning to speak it first. I can speak a little Cantonese - (Much more Difficult than Putongwa - with 9 tones compared to the 4 tones of Putongwa) but so far I haven't been able to make the connection between speaking it and writing it.

Chinese Calligraphy is an art that will teach you how to draw with a brush. There is even a felt tip pen used here that has a tip like a brush...

The study of the language really is enjoyable - although - it helps to be here. Which, is where the CD comes in handy.

Edited November 5, 2009 by ~jK~

[Yoda]

Thanks JK and Little1... every little bit helps!

 

I tried to learn to speak Cantonese for the last several weeks but it didn't work out... no one in SC to talk to.

 

I'm having *much* better luck learning to read it, though... there are lots of Chinese characters in yodaville, so that makes it much more fun.

 

Tao toe,

Yoda

[Yoda]

btw, I finally figured out how to use a Chinese-English dictionary... now I can find out what my teacup has been trying to tell me!

[gendao]

The legend of the origin of Chinese characters:

 

His conversation with the hunter greatly inspired Cangjie, leading him to believe that if he could capture in a drawing the special characteristics that set apart each and every thing on the earth, this would truly be the perfect kind of character for writing. From that day forward, Cangjie paid close attention to the characteristics of all things, including the sun, moon, stars, clouds, lakes, oceans, as well as all manner of bird and beast. He began to create characters according to the special characteristics he found, and before long, had compiled a long list of characters for writing. To the delight of the Yellow Emperor, Cangjie presented him with the complete set of characters. The emperor then called the premiers of each of the nine provinces together in order for Cangjie to teach them this new writing system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangjie

Wow, that's very cool. Especially the ancient Chinese use of quipu, which were also interestingly employed by the Peruvian Incas. This makes me really wonder if there may have been a Chinese migration into Peru - when you also consider how similar their brightly-embroidered native dress is with that of the Chinese Yi minority:

In addition, my parents also told me that many of the place names in Peru could pass for Chinese...

 

And ~jK~ is correct, all the dialects are different orally only, the written characters remain the same. Except there are now also Commy-simplified versions of many of the more complex, traditional characters.

Edited November 6, 2009 by vortex

[宁]

In addition, my parents also told me that many of the place names in Peru could pass for Chinese...

 

I find that VERY interesting... there's a part of the Chinese knowledge about spirit, that it is said to have crossed to them... I studied that tradition also, it's rich and profound.

[gendao]

I find that VERY interesting... there's a part of the Chinese knowledge about spirit, that it is said to have crossed to them... I studied that tradition also, it's rich and profound.

Really? What tradition is that?

 

And, I just found this info also confirmed in a book:

according to Jett, 130 Peruvian place names, mainly from Lima northward, correspond to Chinese names, and ninety-five Peruvian place names have meanings in Chinese but not in the New World regions where they are found.

 

Other New World plants that have appeared in pre-Colombian transpacific contexts include grain amaranth, which may have made the voyage before corn (it was referred to in a tenth-century Chinese document as a crop of Szechwan)

Interestingly:

The Yi are found mainly in the Yunnan Province and also in Sichuan, Guizhou Provinces and the Guangxi Autonomous Region.

[宁]

Really? What tradition is that?

 

It's nagualism, a tradition whose secrecy was broke by Carlos Can't-stand-ya

If you can tune in into what he and the witches transmit.... well, it's only that feeling that keeps my belief that 'there are things between heaven and earth that our philosophers never dreamed of'

As a consequence of that connection, I can add with certainty that I am not the same since I met that path. Compared to the corpus of theory and practice that I have embodied in time, if I was to make a metaphor, it's like the cerebelum compared to the brain.

The brain is the larger part, and the cerebelum is the smaller part.

The cerebelum is the part that deals with surviving and basic instincts.

The lager brain is about constructing and synthesizing.

 

It's a very direct path, no words, just survival, here and beyond. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a master, or better said, I'm still not ready to meet such a master... In time, I'm sure I'll have my chanse. The connection is just too strong.

[exorcist_1699]

 

how soon will you be able to know some decent Chinese? my teachers say, after i learn 2500 characters...

 

Contrary to French class teacher who is apt to overstate the quantity of regular verbs ending with -ir ,-er or -re used in daily life , Chinese class teacher , in goodwill , always understates the quantity of Chinese characters that foreign students need to learn , so as not to scare them away.

 

An amount of around 5,000 characters seems more reasonable .

[宁]

Contrary to French class teacher who is apt to overstate the quantity of regular verbs ending with -ir ,-er or -re used in daily life , Chinese class teacher , in goodwill , always understates the quantity of Chinese characters that foreign students need to learn , so as not to scare them away.

 

An amount of around 5,000 characters seems more reasonable .

 

Ehe, thank you for that... I also wish to add that they also told us that studying Chinese is a life-long endevour..

[~jK~]

Wow, that's very cool. Especially the ancient Chinese use of which were also interestingly employed by the Peruvian Incas. This makes me really wonder if there may have been a Chinese migration into Peru - when you also consider how similar their brightly-embroidered native dress is with that of the Chinese Yi minority:In addition, my parents also told me that many of the place names in Peru could pass for Chinese...

 

And ~jK~ is correct, all the dialects are different orally only, the written characters remain the same. Except there are now also Commy-simplified versions of many of the more complex, traditional characters.

 

To the best of my knowledge, this is the first contact between China & the rest of the world - but it may just be the best documented... (best documented = "squeeky wheel gets the grease" theory)

Map

 

Parent URL: http://www.1421exposed.com/html/1421_and_all_that_junk.html

[~jK~]

Ehe, thank you for that... I also wish to add that they also told us that studying Chinese is a life-long endevour..

 

L1, I came here in 1997 for a 6 month visit... In studying Chinese - think this:

Chinese is based on drawn images of objects found in reality and their relationship to each other.

English is based on sounds where as our mother and dictionaries taught us what they ment - through the belief system.

 

Here is the Chinese character for 'Patience' which is also used for 'Tolerance' 忍 it is a picture of two swords suspended over a heart. It is supposed to give you the thought: If you had two swords suspended over your heart - would it teach you 'Tolerance' ?

 

The entire time that I've been here - I've not been bored

 

A good news is thet if you get your teaching certificate - as a native English speaker - you can come here and teach... Big Bucks -With: travel allowance, dislocation pay, rent allowance etc - in Hong Kong. I don't know about the situation in Mainland China - but do not see why it would be different.

 

More good news is that: The person that established the Chinese language Translation program in USA (5 Universities) and in Hong Kong City University, William McNaughton, gives what he calls The Student's Character list in his books: Reading & Writing Chinese Traditional Character edition (Student's Character list= 1,020 ) and Reading & Writing Chinese Simplified Character edition (Student's Character list= 1,1067 ) ISBN - 13: 978-0-8048-3509-1

 

(mainland) Chinese TV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Central...vision#Channels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCTV_Channels

 

These two below are the main ones I watch - more are on cable and even more are on the internet like this one (about 1 year behind USA): http://drama.tvb.com/24(vii)/

Hong Kong TV:

http://schedule.tvb.com/pearl/

http://www.hkatv.com/v3/schedule/schedule-world.html

Edited November 7, 2009 by ~jK~

[宁]

L1, I came here in 1997 for a 6 month visit...

 

What if I'm not a native English speaker? I learned English in school. I could get a English Instructor Certificate, I think. After finishing school, I think I'll spend at least a year or two in China, with my wife and son. Until then, I'm looking for scholarship oportunities, for the near future...

Thanks

[~jK~]

What if I'm not a native English speaker? I learned English in school. I could get a English Instructor Certificate, I think. After finishing school, I think I'll spend at least a year or two in China, with my wife and son. Until then, I'm looking for scholarship oportunities, for the near future...

Thanks

Native English speaker is absolute necessity.

Alternate phonic speach patterns confuse learning students.

If you are not a native English speaker, and have learned English, you know. . .

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

What if I'm not a native English speaker? I learned English in school. I could get a English Instructor Certificate, I think. After finishing school, I think I'll spend at least a year or two in China, with my wife and son. Until then, I'm looking for scholarship oportunities, for the near future...

Thanks

 

 

What passport you got?

 

British, Canadian, American, Australian or New zealander and your'e made. Any other, tricky.... but not impossible. What's your native language? You might be able to teach that. Even if your English accent is a lil bit off they won't know unless another foreigner tells them. They will only look at the passport, you can get away with the rest.

 

Certificates make life a bit easier, but honestly, it's so in demand they will over look it and give a little bit of special money to make sure the visa goes through. Might be a bit more difficult for you with a wife and kid though.... that's 3 visas as opposed to one.

 

Passport is king. Trust me on that.

 

The rest is, as the Chinese say 'negotiable'(their favorite word.... be careful, their damn good at it)

[宁]

What passport you got?

 

British, Canadian, American, Australian or New zealander ...

 

If you take only BRITISH accents alone, you've got at least a dozen.

The same goes with Canadian, also American, Aussies have their special flavour, New Zeelanders - the same...

 

I'm from Eastern Europe:)

[gendao]

To the best of my knowledge, this is the first contact between China & the rest of the world - but it may just be the best documented... (best documented = "squeeky wheel gets the grease" theory)

Map

 

Parent URL: http://www.1421exposed.com/html/1421_and_all_that_junk.html

Well, there were most likely several Chinese migrations to the New World.

 

One speculation is that those fleeing the collapse of the Bronze Age Shang Dynasty helped found the Olmec civilization (which preceded the Mayans). There are a lot of cultural similarities which support this.

The Chinese Buddhist monk Hui-Shen may have then landed in California or the Pacific Northwest in 459 CE, calling it Fu Sang.

 

And there also appears to have been at least another Chinese migration into the Peruvian Incas, after that. Zheng He's hypothesized arrival could have fallen into this same time period, if not later.

 

There's another old thread on all this here.

Edited November 8, 2009 by vortex

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

If you take only BRITISH accents alone, you've got at least a dozen.

The same goes with Canadian, also American, Aussies have their special flavour, New Zeelanders - the same...

 

I'm from Eastern Europe:)

 

My point was simply that they focus on the passport. And I was not taking only BRITISH(your caps)accents alone.

 

Still do-able in my view. I've known Russians that teach English... and that's without one of the major English speaking countries passports. They were, however, on a student visa.

 

edit: Oh.... I just GOT what you were saying..... I got a slow brain today

Edited November 9, 2009 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[Walker]

Yeah, there're plenty of foreigners teaching here who are not native English speakers and don't have English-speaking country's passports. I think it might be easier if you're trying to teach kids rather than adults, and definitely easier the further you go from highly developed and regulated cities, most especially Beijing and Shanghai. Oh, and being white, being physically attractive... Sigh, very big factors.

 

For those looking for a way to study in the PRC for free, this is your page: http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?t=19203

 

A similar scholarship exists for Taiwan.

 

Teaching English is a good way to get a foothold in this country. If you've got time (ie, don't work for a private English academy with 25 classroom hours a week plus required in-office prep time; you won't have energy left to study and you won't have time to make Chinese friends and explore the country) and discipline you can learn lots of Chinese while teaching. But be careful you don't get screwed, especially if not being a native speaker means you're teaching at a somewhat, er, "negotiable" institution (not that they're all bad). The forums on ESLCafe.com are full of good advice, though don't be overly put off by the horror stories. A lot of expats love to exagerrate the troubles they've seen, especially online.

 

好好学习, sky sky to up。。。

[Yoda]

Walker,

 

I've heard that the Chinese intend to build up their educational system in order to enjoy brain drain dividends.

 

If true, I was sort of hoping that when my kids get older, they could take advantage of that wave somehow...

 

Thanks for the link... that was exactly what I was hoping might be out there.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[宁]

Yeah, there're plenty of foreigners teaching here who are not native English speakers and don't have English-speaking country's passports. I think it might be easier if you're trying to teach kids rather than adults, and definitely easier the further you go from highly developed and regulated cities, most especially Beijing and Shanghai. Oh, and being white, being physically attractive... Sigh, very big factors.

 

For those looking for a way to study in the PRC for free, this is your page: http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?t=19203

 

A similar scholarship exists for Taiwan.

 

Teaching English is a good way to get a foothold in this country. If you've got time (ie, don't work for a private English academy with 25 classroom hours a week plus required in-office prep time; you won't have energy left to study and you won't have time to make Chinese friends and explore the country) and discipline you can learn lots of Chinese while teaching. But be careful you don't get screwed, especially if not being a native speaker means you're teaching at a somewhat, er, "negotiable" institution (not that they're all bad). The forums on ESLCafe.com are full of good advice, though don't be overly put off by the horror stories. A lot of expats love to exagerrate the troubles they've seen, especially online.

 

好好学习, sky sky to up。。。

 

我们有一位中国老师，可是她英语说得还可以。有一个同学， 他去年去中国，今年他回家， 他汉语说得很流利。我汉语说得太慢。 可是我真喜欢写字，学字。有别的同学， 他们已经认识很多中国人， 有中国朋友，每天跟他们练习练习。。。

（i hope i didn't make a fool of myself trying to write these:))

on second thought, someone proposed, not so long ago, that a sub-section of the taobums should be created in Chinese... it would be a great oportunity to exercise at least the writing, being corrected by native or more fluent speakers? not to mention learning about daoist concepts and theory in their native language...

 

how about it Yoda? you may have more influence on the moderators than poor lil' me:)

we can help each other alot. if i remember correctly, exorcist liked the idea also... maybe he has friends.

guys, it's time we stop talking about it and start doing smthn... what do ya'all say, huh?

i'm sure Stig would like it alot also...

[Yoda]

on second thought, someone proposed, not so long ago, that a sub-section of the taobums should be created in Chinese... it would be a great oportunity to exercise at least the writing, being corrected by native or more fluent speakers? not to mention learning about daoist concepts and theory in their native language...

 

how about it Yoda? you may have more influence on the moderators than poor lil' me:)

we can help each other alot. if i remember correctly, exorcist liked the idea also... maybe he has friends.

guys, it's time we stop talking about it and start doing smthn... what do ya'all say, huh?

i'm sure Stig would like it alot also...

 

Little1,

 

Awesome idea! I think the fluent Chinese speakers could have fun messing with the newbies! I haven't any idea what Sean is up to these days, but I know that Trunk and Mal and Sean sometimes brainstorm up ideas, so I'll send your thoughts their way.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Yoda]

Chinese characters each have a root aka radical character inside them and there are over 200 radicals.

 

I've sort of taken this to mean that these were the 200+ root ideas or building blocks of the written language. Of these the most used ones are the radicals that symbolize:

 

Grass, Water, Tree, Hand, Mouth, Heart, and Insect. (in that order)

 

From an intuitive perspective, it makes sense except for the insects... Were they a source of food? Did chicken domestication make bugs pivotal? Maybe mosquitoes were a huge bummer in the days before windows and netting? Mrs. Yoda says that after water insects are what farmers are concerned about, so that's probably why they get so much press. This one list of words formed from the insect radical suggests that insects totally suck and have been a big problem throughout history. All extremely negative associations: http://www.chinese-tools.com/tools/sinogra...tml?q=%E8%99%AB

 

Does this line of thinking make any sense from a scholastic perspective I wonder or is it just an exercise in random internet musings?

 

Tao Toe,

Yoda

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kangxi_radicals