Nonduality: Jetsun and MPG discussion.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Placeholder for off topic derail of the Bias against New Age thread.

 

[Thunder_Gooch]

I understand where you are coming from and I wish you luck on your path too, but I want to try to make the point that if your fundamental identity has shifted out from your individual separate consciousness into non-dual that means that you are now identified with the all, therefore you will not die when your body and mind dies as your identity is identified with all awareness , you are all that exists so how can you really die?.

Which is why some teachers say before you try to manipulate your energy and do all that stuff you should try find out who or what you really are, what is the one who is doing all the exercises and trying to do all they can to break the cycle of liberation? It's probably something you have heard a hundred times and I didn't really take the investigation that seriously myself until recently when I had an experience which shifted my perspective on all this stuff.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I am not even sure where to begin.

 

Taoism in part is the study of nature. Nature is a violent, ****ing affair, literally and figuratively. Everything in nature is trying to kill everything else and eat it alive, everything is a competition to out-****, and out-reproduce everything else. Nothing is fair in nature, except in a species where cooperation among members of the species benefits the group as a whole to out-compete other species. Nothing is sacred, it's a warzone, and if you think nature is anything else but that you are a delusional hippy. It's a boiling sea of chaos,with everything dying in agony and being eaten alive and absorbed into other creatures. The survival of the fittest. Nature is quite literally hell.

 

Taoists learn from nature.

 

We are here to evolve, to understand the reality we are a part of as completely as we can, and advance our own intelligence.

 

We suffer because we are ignorant, we die and reborn because of our ignorance. Were we aware of the ultimate nature of reality we would be as Gods.

[Thunder_Gooch]

what you really are

 

Each cell in your body is an independent and intelligent entity, together they have organized themselves as a society, they communicate and share knowledge and information used to coordinate themselves across a vast organic internet, you understand this to be your brain and central nervous system.

 

You are quite literally a living breathing society of intelligent beings, and as they exchange information, with one another the energy and information in your neural networks manifests as an energetic experience you call reality.

 

Everything you see or otherwise experience is just purely energy and information in your neural networks, and has no tangible physical existence of it's own.

 

You live in a representational reality, a simulation.

 

 

 

 

 

The Mahayana Buddhists teach the mind is like a mirror, it reflects reality, and it is the reflection of the mind which we observe not reality itself.

 

Plato explained it similar to this in his work "The Republic" it is known as the "Allegory of the Cave". Many men were chained to the wall of the cave, and throughout their lives only saw the shadows on the walls and believed them to be forms of people. One of these men eventually sees the fire and realizes the truth that what he previously understood as reality were merely shadows on the wall.

 

A lot of people never truly understand the reality we actually experience, doesn't occur outside of us, it occurs only inside of us, only inside our minds, and only as energy and information, as a holographic experience. An experience of something is an abstraction of it, like painting of a pipe is an abstraction of a pipe, or a map of the territory is an abstraction of the territory. Maps and paintings have only symbolic and representational existence as anything other pieces of paper.

 

Everything we've ever seen or otherwise experienced has only ever occurred inside our own minds, and not external to our minds.

 

Alfred Korzybski remarked that "the map is not the territory", our brain generates maps of the reality external to us, we observe these maps of reality but believe them to be reality itself.

 

This would as absurd as believing a painting of a pipe was an actual pipe you could smoke, see "The Treachery of Images" by René Magritte.

 

 

What we see and experience is purely an internal phenomenon, yet we spend our entire lives believing it is external to ourselves. We do not see reality outside of our own minds, we see only inside our own minds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That keyboard you are typing on and mouse you are moving, that's just a holographic and energetic simulation of reality your cell-ular citizens have created to help them organize their actions intelligently.

 

You have no existence independent of your cells, no physical tangible existence either, you are just the energy and information inside your neural networks, just like energy and information, pulses of energy flowing and information flowing throughout the human technological internet.

 

The reality "you" experience has no reality to it at all, it's literally just energy and information in your neural networks, just an experience based on the information your cells share with one another.

 

As a matter of fact "you" don't even exist in the first place as anything more than energy and information anyway, "you" really are a fluke, a ghost in the machine.

 

Right now we share information across our global internet, and we perform exactly the same functions your neurons do, and we too give rise to a consciousness via our actions no less real than your own.

 

That's the truth.

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

When you die, that energy and information dies too, the animating force and energy in your body returns to the world.

 

Chang claims our spirits are made of yin energy, like gravity, that they are passive observers possessing memory only, no ability to comprehend or remember emotion, no volition or ability to choose or make decisions. Just passive observers, unconscious minds.

 

Unless huge amounts of both yin and yang energy are brought together during a lifetime and fused as one, there isn't much to really survive death.

 

I am not going to pretend it's ok for my consciousness to be snuffed out.

 

"Every animal with blood in its veins and horns on its head will fight when it is attacked." -Sun Tzu

 

Our place is to evolve, to grow, to become more intelligent and aware, to understand the universe, and to ultimately become God.

 

To lay down and and give up, and not even try to do something about the situation you find yourself in, to surrender...

 

That is not the natural order of things, that isn't how nature works, that isn't how life works.

[Jetsun]

Taoists study nature and you are a microcosm of nature, so study yourself starting off with the fundamental examination of the thing which is trying to do the studying, where is it, what are its characteristics?

 

They say the truth sets you free so just look for what is true and be really sincere about what you know and don't know then you will align with nature and the natural way of things, otherwise the mind will just be adding onto reality its own interpretation of what it thinks reality should look like. Do you know who or what you are?, and if you don't it might be a good place to start otherwise you could be doing all the energy manipulation exercises from a place not authentically aligned with what is needed for your natural being. If you don't know who you are how do you know what is the right exercise or meditation or method to do? people do exercises all the time from an egoic place without realising it, all they are doing is strengthening delusion while believing that they are doing the opposite.

 

Most the vedanta and Zen and those guys are saying exactly the same thing and it is very simple,so simple that most people miss it, which is that all of your thoughts, feelings and beliefs arise in something and it is worth examining whatever it is that all that stuff is arising in. Your identity is usually fixed on the content that is arising and ignoring what it is arising in, yet the only constant in your life is that which all the content is arising in as the content always changes, so why is the content more you than what it arises from?. The unborn awareness is right here all the time, in the stillness which is always present, in the gaps.

 

You want to end the cycle of rebirth without having found out for sure what you are, maybe it isn't even you that wants to do that, maybe it is a belief which you have mistaken for yourself which is actually working against whats really best for you.

[Jetsun]

When you die, that energy and information dies too, the animating force and energy in your body returns to the world.

 

Chang claims our spirits are made of yin energy, like gravity, that they are passive observers possessing memory only, no ability to comprehend or remember emotion, no volition or ability to choose or make decisions. Just passive observers, unconscious minds.

 

Unless huge amounts of both yin and yang energy are brought together during a lifetime and fused as one, there isn't much to really survive death.

 

I am not going to pretend it's ok for my consciousness to be snuffed out.

 

 

 

Our place is to evolve, to grow, to become more intelligent and aware, to understand the universe, and to ultimately become God.

 

To lay down and and give up, and not even try to do something about the situation you find yourself in, to surrender...

 

That is not the natural order of things, that isn't how nature works, that isn't how life works.

 

If you are brutally honest you don't know any of this as fact.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Yes I do. It's also been my direct observation in meditation. It doesn't get much more factual than what you yourself observe.

 

If you are brutally honest you don't know any of this as fact.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I won't repeat myself Jetsun I already covered this.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30773-nonduality-jetsun-and-mpg-discussion/#entry458730

thing which is trying to do the studying, where is it, what are its characteristics?

 

 

without having found out for sure what you are

Edited July 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

.

Edited July 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Jetsun]

I won't repeat myself Jetsun I already covered this.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30773-nonduality-jetsun-and-mpg-discussion/#entry458730

 

That is all well and good, but what can you point to now in yourself which is you? what within you can you right now identify as yourself?

 

There is nothing

 

Yet you want to try to get this thing you can't find off the cycle of rebirth

[Jetsun]

Yes I do. It's also been my direct observation in meditation. It doesn't get much more factual than what you yourself observe.

 

No you have certain meditation experiences, to conclude all else you wrote is true from those experiences requires assumptions which might not be correct

[Thunder_Gooch]

Read it again, respond to me point via point rather than asking questions I already answered.

 

I won't play that game, I don't have time for it.

 

 

 

 

That is all well and good, but what can you point to now in yourself which is you? what within you can you right now identify as yourself?

 

There is nothing

 

Yet you want to try to get this thing you can't find off the cycle of rebirth

Edited July 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

No you have certain meditation experiences, to conclude all else you wrote is true from those experiences requires assumptions which might not be correct

No more an assumption than me walking out in my driveway and telling you what color I observe me car to be. What I've observed is as real as anything can be. If you don't like it too bad, agree to disagree and move on with your life.

[Jetsun]

OK

 

Each cell in your body is an independent and intelligent entity, together they have organized themselves as a society, they communicate and share knowledge and information used to coordinate themselves across a vast organic internet, you understand this to be your brain and central nervous system.

You are quite literally a living breathing society of intelligent beings, and as they exchange information, with one another the energy and information in your neural networks manifests as an energetic experience you call reality.

 

So if this is true in your body this is also true in your environment and in other bodies all constantly interacting with each other, so where do "you" and any "others" start and stop, where are the boundaries? it is all just one big organism interacting together is it not? all boundaries only exist in the imagination

[Thunder_Gooch]

As best as I can figure we are entropy displacement systems, just like a boat displaces water to float, we displace entropy.

 

We are a flowing, a happening, like a whirlpool in a stream, each atom in our body is replaced every so many years, only the pattern remains similar, energy is expended to maintain the integrity of the pattern itself and when the pattern's integrity can be no longer maintained death occurs.

 

Our consciousness is like a flame on a candle, and energetic phenomenon to to be sure.

 

That is the core of what we are.

Edited July 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

To maintain life and consciousness a steady stream energy must be absorbed, and waste removed.

 

An energy input, and a ground are required for this feat.

 

Yang and yin.

 

A plant takes water and earth, and gasses from the atmosphere and creates a system/pattern which captures the energy of the sun to continue it's own life processes and reproduce.

 

It's a very crystalline process when you think about it. The interaction of these two extremes is what makes life possible in the first place.

Edited July 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Your consciousness itself, the experience that is concurring is an interplay of these two primal energies. The yang energy leaves at death and no longer animates the yin. The yang, the active, thinking, animating, life force, goes back into the environment at death. The yin spirit remains as a passive observer, even after the destruction of the physical body. It retains memory, and exists as a subconscious dreaming mind, a passive observer with no volition, or willpower of it's own. Eventually it is paired with a new yang spirit for a new life and new experience as a new organism.

As best as I can tell from my own observations that IS what is going on.

 

 

The core of what I hope to achieve is an end to cyclic existence, and maintain a continuity of mind between lifetimes at the very least.

Edited July 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

OK

 

 

So if this is true in your body this is also true in your environment and in other bodies all constantly interacting with each other, so where do "you" and any "others" start and stop, where are the boundaries? it is all just one big organism interacting together is it not? all boundaries only exist in the imagination

 

 

So far I've only spoken about my experience as it applies to a 3 dimensional cross section of a greater reality I experienced.

 

In meditation I have experienced each "moment" like a 3 dimensional cross section.

 

Imagine a deck of cards all stacked together.

 

On each card is a 3D hologram comprising a moment of time in full color and lifelike realism.

 

Imagine that "you" are a flowing of energy through this animating it and giving it meaning.

 

That past, present and future are just 3 dimensional cross sections of a larger 4 dimensional solid object you are flowing through.

 

Imagine that the past doesn't cease to exist and the future exists before you observe it, all just as real as the present moment.

 

Now imagine at each moment, every and all possible choices are accounted for, and reality splits off each of the futures you are capable of viewing all equally as real as the present moment as well.

 

Your mind being like a pulse of energy flowing through this infinite succession of 3D moments.

 

Now imagine you aren't the only mind like this, there are infinite minds that believe themselves to be you and share an identical identity to your own, the same goes for everyone you've ever met.

 

Moment to moment your mind is flowing past and interacting with an infinite amount of other minds like your own, and like the minds of people you meet.

 

This is something I experienced personally and is the reason I longer label myself atheist.

Edited July 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

To to answer your question what am I, energy and information with no physical and tangible existence.

 

My end goal is to prevent the erasure of this energy and information, to prevent it from being deconstructed and incorporated into other patterns of energy and information.

 

To ensure the balance and interplay of yin and yang energies to maintain the integrity of the pattern of energy and information, that comprises "my experience".

 

While this may seem silly to you, it's the most primal and core function of my programming.

Edited July 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy