Pain in right knee when in full lotus won't go away

[Dzogchen]

I sit in full lotus a lot lately, usually at least 20-30 minutes every day or two. Have never really had any problems in almost a decade besides when I very first began, and when I take long breaks and do not sit for a while. I have recently been hiking a lot more than usual and the hikes I go on are rather strenuous (Colorado).

I noticed that I must have pulled something as now whenever I try to sit full lotus, I get a sharp pain near my outside of my right knee that seems to shoot down like a line to my calf area. Now, even if I sit like half lotus with my right foot on left thigh I can feel it very much. I have stayed off it and not tried anything that would antagonize it, but it is not getting better at all, not even slightly, and it has been over three weeks now.

I also practice Qigong and have not been sick in forever, and haven't had any body pain in a very long time, but I am unable to heal this myself.

Any ideas?

[Flolfolil]

If your lotus injury is anything like mine you are in for years of suffering

 

i pray that your knee isn't injured in the same way mine is

[Dzogchen]

Nothing else seems to be wrong with my knee, and in most day-to-day actions I do not have any problems.

 

I am usually very careful getting into and out of full lotus when just meditating or when doing specific yoga poses/asanas/postures. Always stretch before and after, no matter if I just was sitting full lotus hours ago.

 

Didn't feel anything that would have caused this, the only thing I can think of is that I was sore for a couple days after I went a few days in a row on some pretty gnarly hikes, and then this started. The thing that worries me is that it isn't better at all, it feels just as painful as it did almost 3 weeks ago.

 

I have tried healing myself and different healing meditations.

 

It hurts even when in half lotus but what are the thoughts on me switching to full lotus with opposite leg on top that I have always been doing?

[RiverSnake]

One thing I have recently discovered that supposedly helps the body heal quickly from injures and illness is fasting. Haven't, really experimented too deeply with it myself yet, but it looks interesting.

 

 

My 2 cents, Peace

[joeblast]

Keep in mind that ligaments take longer to heal than muscles. I've done this to both of my knees from full lotus mishaps, recently I had to go to the office for work and went to sit in full lotus, thought the latch on the chair was set so that it wouldnt tip back, but it did a bit, enough to pull at some of the ligaments. Stuff like the lateral collateral (injured that on my left side 3 or 4 years ago) or the popliteal tendon and posterior fibular ligament are also ones easily damaged (damn you, chair.)

 

Holding the knee at a 90 degree angle allows for the most range of tibia & fibula motion - rotate them both medially and laterally, a dozen times a dozen times a day. Do not attempt more lotus with that side. Move back to fundamental stretches that devalop the lotus ability, wherever the full lotus thread went, find it there's plenty of good stuff in there on stretches to keep up the musculature.

 

It will be a challenge to keep the other stuff in good shape while nursing some specific aspects...so refocus on the fundamentals, be PATIENT, and dont lotus before you're ready otherwise its going going to be that much longer before you can sit comfortably and not do further damage.

[Dzogchen]

Ok thanks for all the info, it has been so long since I have been injured like this and even just a few weeks seems like forever.

 

I do a lot of different lotus stretching, that is actually how I notice if it feels better or not every day. I will just wait this one out and hope for the best!

 

Might even go drink some alcohol since I mainly abstain from alcohol because of my different daily, practices. Treat it like a vacation from a vacation!

[SonOfTheGods]

I can relate.

If you seen my thread here:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30770-full-lotus-several-decades-kundalini/

 

I spoke about staying in full lotus for many hours daily, even in mundane activities.

 

Anti-inflammatories, such as a simple aspirin, might help during short term healing.

Also easy stretching, against the area that hurts.

 

If left side hurts, stretch to the right, gently though.

 

Always stretch prior to full lotus, after you heal, and staying limber is always a benefit.

[Songtsan]

....probably inflammation related...since its chronic and not acute - you can use contrast therapy ice:heat:ice

 

start with an ice cube, rub it all over the affected region for about 7 minutes (your skin should go a little numb to touch)...use a wash cloth to catch drips...follow with 15 minutes heat (sock with rice in it heated up in microwave is a cheap way), end with 5-7 more ice..

 

What this does is firstly push out excess fluid/blood/waste by vasoconstriction, heat brings new blood and renews tissues through vasodilation, end ice pushes out more fluids and removes more toxins. Do this at least 1x a day. If doing multiples, wait 2-4 hours in between. Don't go into lotus until inflammation is down...

Edited July 30, 2013 by Songtsan

[ChiDragon]

I get a sharp pain near my outside of my right knee that seems to shoot down like a line to my calf area.

 

There is a acupoint outside of your thighs called 風市(feng shi4). Stand up and lower your right hand where the tip of the middle finger is and see if you have a slight sore there. If you do, massage it until the sore goes away. Let's see that helps.

Edited July 30, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Songtsan]

If you can find a spot that hurts when you press or rub it, notice the quality of the pain. If it is a sharp pain with no sense of exquisite tenderness (i.e. 'hurts good'), then you either have connective tissue damage in tendon/ligament, or perhaps a bursa? The severity of your symptoms suggest mainly inflammation, but its hard to tell for certain. Generally if you tore something, you would know it in every little move you made, so I am thinking that it is inflammation that only bothers you in the extreme of knee flexion, because of the stretch factor. Probably doesn't matter at this point what the exact cause is - all you have to do is allow it to heal. The old standby is PRICE, Protection Rest Ice Compression Elevation...

 

If you notice that you can do full lotus more easily and with less pain after exercise where your tissue is more warmed up, then it is no problem - the inflammation will go down soon. If after a warming exercise, the pain is the same, it would tend to indicate somewhat more serious inflammation...then it is a definite to protect that knee - no lotus for you for a while I am afraid. You need that tissue to be happy, not stressed. That's the only way to have the inflammation not become more chronic than it is.

 

Here is something else you can try for assessment purposes. Bend the knee 90 degrees, then rotate your lower leg right and left (you should have about 5- 10 degrees of play when the knee is bent). If that pain occurs then, it's possible that you have a ligament issue, probably an MCL/ACL sprain - that is a possibility.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Songtsan

[doc benway]

I sit in full lotus a lot lately, usually at least 20-30 minutes every day or two. Have never really had any problems in almost a decade besides when I very first began, and when I take long breaks and do not sit for a while. I have recently been hiking a lot more than usual and the hikes I go on are rather strenuous (Colorado).

 

I noticed that I must have pulled something as now whenever I try to sit full lotus, I get a sharp pain near my outside of my right knee that seems to shoot down like a line to my calf area. Now, even if I sit like half lotus with my right foot on left thigh I can feel it very much. I have stayed off it and not tried anything that would antagonize it, but it is not getting better at all, not even slightly, and it has been over three weeks now.

 

I also practice Qigong and have not been sick in forever, and haven't had any body pain in a very long time, but I am unable to heal this myself.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

One possibility is that the hiking (or something else) has caused tightness in the hip joint and surrounding soft tissues.

Knee pain doing full lotus is nearly always related to hip tightness.

This is because proper lotus should cause little or no tension on the knee - tension in the knee, by definition, means the hip is tight.

Look to the spine, hips, and pelvis.

Stretch...

My favorite resource is Becoming the Lotus

edit to add - if you can't do lotus, don't. Full lotus is not in any way a pre-requisite to energetic or spiritual development. That is a fallacy.

Edited July 30, 2013 by steve

[Songtsan]

One reason I mention MCL/ACL is that both of those ligaments stabilize the knee from excessive rotation. When in lotus, the knees become externally rotated.

[becomethepath]

go to a chinese chiropractor/ acupressure/ acupuncture clinic?

[kevin_wallbridge]

Do you have a subluxation (partial dislocation) of the head of the fibula? The fact that your discomfort is all below the knee and not felt most of the time makes me think of this. As well, the rotation of the leg in Lotus will pull on the fibula.

 

This subluxation can happen when you take a high step over the height of your knee (something that can happen on a strenuous hike) while wearing even a light pack. If you hold the side of your knee while you do a slow deep squat you may feel it slip.

 

I live in the Canadian mountains and see this often enough.

 

A Chiro may be able to help you or someone with bone-setting training, if this is what you have.

Edited July 30, 2013 by kevin_wallbridge

[Songtsan]

So many knowledgeable people here - awesome! I looked into lotus by doing it and I am wondering now about my previous thoughts - probably isn't that at all....

 

What would really help if you could pinpoint exactly where the pain occurs...maybe sit in the lotus and use a marker to color where the pain is...try to be really exact...also see if you can determine how deep the pain is and tell us that...trace the line where the pain shoots..then take a digipic of that and post it on tiny pics and link the URL into this thread and let all these peeps take a look at it...its just a fun experiment...no one should be diagnosing stuff over the internet obviously..its really hard to do...but it is a cool and easy thing for us to try before (or if) you see a pro.

[Dzogchen]

Songtsan, thanks for the wealth of information! It does not appear to be ACL or MCL. I can take a photo but it would be hard to do with me in lotus because it is basically on the outside of my knee. It seems to be coming from right where the fibula connects at the top, shooting down almost 1/2 way along the fibula.

 

 

I can relate.

If you seen my thread here:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30770-full-lotus-several-decades-kundalini/

 

I spoke about staying in full lotus for many hours daily, even in mundane activities.

 

Anti-inflammatories, such as a simple aspirin, might help during short term healing.

Also easy stretching, against the area that hurts.

 

If left side hurts, stretch to the right, gently though.

 

Always stretch prior to full lotus, after you heal, and staying limber is always a benefit.

 

Thanks. I do not take pharmacy drugs for this but I have been using a lot of turmeric/curcumin and milk thistle/sylimarin. And I am allergic to aspirin. I do not know if you read all my post, but I have been doing this for a long time and I stretch before and after, basically all the time.

There is a acupoint outside of your thighs called 風市(feng shi4). Stand up and lower your right hand where the tip of the middle finger is and see if you have a slight sore there. If you do, massage it until the sore goes away. Let's see that helps.

 

 

One possibility is that the hiking (or something else) has caused tightness in the hip joint and surrounding soft tissues.

Knee pain doing full lotus is nearly always related to hip tightness.

This is because proper lotus should cause little or no tension on the knee - tension in the knee, by definition, means the hip is tight.

Look to the spine, hips, and pelvis.

Stretch...

My favorite resource is Becoming the Lotus

edit to add - if you can't do lotus, don't. Full lotus is not in any way a pre-requisite to energetic or spiritual development. That is a fallacy.

 

Great resource. I actually did notice that a couple nights ago my hip just all of the sudden started hurting, feeling out of place. I did not think it had anything to do with this pain because it didn't start hurting at the same time, it was rather spontaneous, but now I think they might be correlated.

Do you have a subluxation (partial dislocation) of the head of the fibula? The fact that your discomfort is all below the knee and not felt most of the time makes me think of this. As well, the rotation of the leg in Lotus will pull on the fibula.

 

This subluxation can happen when you take a high step over the height of your knee (something that can happen on a strenuous hike) while wearing even a light pack. If you hold the side of your knee while you do a slow deep squat you may feel it slip.

 

I live in the Canadian mountains and see this often enough.

 

A Chiro may be able to help you or someone with bone-setting training, if this is what you have.

 

Checked many times for a slip. While I could not detect a definite slip at the head, this is exactly where the pain is coming from. The heat of the fibula where it connects to the knee, striking down only the fibula just less than 1/2 way down.

 

I'm going to take this all in, take it slowly for the next week or two and take some time off. It actually is not that bad when I am doing anything else. I feel like I could go play a pick up game of basketball right now, it only hurts when in 1/2 or full lotus.

 

Thanks again, I will report back here with my findings!

[joeblast]

ACL MCL are too along the center to be applicable here

[Songtsan]

Songtsan, thanks for the wealth of information! It does not appear to be ACL or MCL. I can take a photo but it would be hard to do with me in lotus because it is basically on the outside of my knee. It seems to be coming from right where the fibula connects at the top, shooting down almost 1/2 way along the fibula.

 

I wasn't suggesting take the photo while in lotus - just use the marker to highlight the areas where the pain is exactly...then take the photo in a different position. Mainly I am just curious...

[tendou]

ACL MCL are too along the center to be applicable here

Joe, ACL and MCL is the name of meridian? WHat does the acronym stands for?

[Songtsan]

Joe, ACL and MCL is the name of meridian? WHat does the acronym stands for?

 

anterior cruciate ligament and medial collateral ligament

 

they stabilize the knee during rotation in the transverse plane

[Dzogchen]

Update:

 

Just decided to go for a walk to see how I did. I ended up doing 7 miles and felt so good I ran the last 4! My hip isn't even acting up anymore. Now if I try lotus again, I still feel the pain! I can't feel it during 7 miles but when trying lotus or when I do this type of exercise I feel it sharp:

 

@4:49

 

Edited July 31, 2013 by Dzogchen

[voidisyinyang]

Do your legs go numb when your in full lotus? Usually after the numbness disappears then any knee pain clears out also.

[Songtsan]

Update:

 

Just decided to go for a walk to see how I did. I ended up doing 7 miles and felt so good I ran the last 4! My hip isn't even acting up anymore. Now if I try lotus again, I still feel the pain! I can't feel it during 7 miles but when trying lotus or when I do this type of exercise I feel it sharp:

 

@4:49

 

So its definitely during extreme flexion of the knee, with a little rotation. I assume that if you simply flex the knee all the way, as if you are doing a quad stretch, that nothing happens? If so, its that little bit of rotation when flexing, with the external rotation of the hip that may be doing it. Hmmm...

 

I dont know, but it seems that if its only when in extreme knee flexion that this occurs, that it may be a muscle that originates above the knee? These are the muscles that would be getting stretched...one of the ones involved in rotation of the knee, external rotation of the hip, as well as extension of the knee. I am thinking that since your knee is being rotated a little externally, that it may be a muscle that is involved in these motions getting super stretched? What a puzzle. At least if you keep researching it you will become really knowledgeable about leg anatomy. I will see if I can find out what muscle does this. I know that the sartorius muscle pretty much does this motion (it brings your leg into what is called the tailors position) but why it would hurt when you are in the contracted position like that is beyond me. Perhaps its an opposing muscle - something involved in internal rotation of the hip....I'll keep looking around.

 

Have you tried ice/heat/ice yet? Its the old standby

Edited July 31, 2013 by Songtsan

[oildrops]

I'm not going to read through all the responses, but I think I can help. I had a very similar thing last year, it turned out it was an IT band thing. I did some stretches for IT band and it really helped. I was also doing a lot of yoga and hiking, and after a 10 mile hike my knee started hurting. I am not sure full lotus and intense hiking can really co-exists anymore. Anyway, the knee pain lasted months until I started stretching my upper hip on that side. The hipbones connected to the... knee bone!

[Songtsan]

I'm not going to read through all the responses, but I think I can help. I had a very similar thing last year, it turned out it was an IT band thing. I did some stretches for IT band and it really helped. I was also doing a lot of yoga and hiking, and after a 10 mile hike my knee started hurting. I am not sure full lotus and intense hiking can really co-exists anymore. Anyway, the knee pain lasted months until I started stretching my upper hip on that side. The hipbones connected to the... knee bone!

 

I was looking into IT-band...it is mainly involved with the external hip rotators - glutes, piriformis, etc. Stretching the glutes is worth a shot - do the seated spinal twist move, etc. Look up all the glute stretches and see what happens...also do a wall sit with one leg crossed on the knee and then sink down....perhaps the IT-band became adhered to something and is causing a pull. Since the position that bothers you involves an externally rotated hip, its possible that this could be it. Perhaps the IT-band is so tight that it is pulling on some other myofascia which affects something else down the line.

 

Does King Pigeon pose do anything for you?

Edited July 31, 2013 by Songtsan