Tao In Agriculture-Natural Farming

[ion]

Is anyone else into this?

 

Some times I tell people Im a farmer/gardener/somewhere inbetween the two, when Im cornered and they ask me "So what do you do?".

 

Im not really an anything you can put your finger on as I suspect many of you are the same at least in essence if not also in expression. I dont ever work full time, or steadily/regularly, so I definitely dont identify with my career and my career is not my lifestyle, nor would anyone associate my "work" with , or to describe who or what I am.

 

Among the ever growing list of what I am, and am not, I am defiitly a cultivator and a planter. I have worked as a farmer, and I have also grown large food gardens for sustenance living off grid garden-farming as part of my daily routine of just being. Planted gardens in the wild, green house and indoor, and am a fairly decent ammeture mycologist.

 

Natural farming is something I started learning about a couple few years ago, and it fit beautifully into my way of life, and into my vision of what I want to do with my nature to grow things.

 

I have a vision tha Ive had since I was a kid about creating a setting of at least semi-self perpetuating food and medicinal plants naturalized into a natural landscape, where very little caretaking would be required.

 

Some of what is found in the natural farming philosophies and practice will make it more possable to achieve what I envision.

 

Natural faarming does not claim to be a taoist method of farming, but to me it is, and my aproach even more so, but un-like regular "organic farming" which is not a practice or defined order, the traditional natural farming practices are actual methodologies, with abelief that nature has a nature, and puts a stress on mimicing nature, and doing things naturaly.

 

Master Masanobu Fukuoka I believe is the originator of Nature Farming and author of a book called One Straw Revolution. There is also Korean Natural Faarming established by Mater Cho, who if I am not mstaken learned directly from Master Fukuoka. Korean Natural Farming is what I have been learning and am more familiar with; vs nature farming, Korean Natural Farming is a little more hands on/involved. We use micro-oranisms more intentionaly, but cultivate the stock from the surrounding wild and forests, IMO, indigenous micro-organisms.

 

Heres a little info.

 

 

 

Toward a Do-Nothing Farming

For thirty years I lived only in my farming and had little contact with

people outside my own community. During those years I was heading in

a straight line toward a "do-nothing" agricultural method.

The usual way to go about developing a method is to ask "How

about trying this?" or "How about trying that?" bringing in a variety of

techniques one upon the other. This is modern agriculture and it only

results in making the farmer busier.

My way was opposite. I was aiming at a pleasant, natural way of

farming [Farming as simply as possible within and in cooperation with

the natural environment, rather than the modern approach of applying

increasingly complex techniques to remake nature entirely for the benefit

of human beings] which results in making the work easier instead of

harder. "How about not doing this? How about not doing that?"- that was

my way of thinking.

I ultimately reached the conclusion that there was

no need to plow, no need to apply fertilizer, no need to make compost,

no need to use insecticide. When you get right down to it, there are few

agricultural practices that are really necessary.

The reason that man's improved techniques seem to be necessary is

that the natural balance has been so badly upset beforehand by those

same techniques that the land has become dependent on themThis line of reasoning not only applies to agriculture, but to other

aspects of human society as well.

Doctors and medicine become

necessary when people create a sickly environment. Formal schooling

has no intrinsic value, but becomes necessary when humanity creates a

condition in which one must become "educated" to get along.

Before the end of the war, when I went up to the citrus orchard to

practice what I then thought was natural farming, I did no pruning and

left the orchard to itself. The branches became tangled, the trees were

attacked by insects and almost two acres of mandarin orange trees

withered and died. From that time on the question, "What is the natural

pattern?" was always in my mind. In the process of arriving at the

answer, I wiped out another 400 trees. Finally I felt I could say with

certainty: "This is the natural pattern."

To the extent that trees deviate from their natural form, pruning and insect extermination become necessary; to the extent

that human society separates itself from a life close to nature, schooling

becomes necessary. In nature, formal schooling has no function.

In raising children, many parents make the same mistake I made in

the orchard at first. For example, teaching music to children is as

unnecessary as pruning orchard trees. A child's ear catches the music.

The murmuring of a stream, the sound of frogs croaking by the

riverbank, the rustling of leaves in the forest, all these natural sounds are

music-true music. But when a variety of disturbing noises enter and

confuse the ear, the child's pure, direct appreciation of music

degenerates.

If left to continue along that path, the child will be unable to

hear the call of a bird or the sound of the wind as songs. That is why

music education is thought to be beneficial to the child's development.

The child who is raised with an ear pure and clear may not be able to

play the popular tunes on the violin or the piano, but I do not think this

has anything to do with the ability to hear true music or to sing. It is

when the heart is filled with song that the child can be said to be

musically gifted.

Almost everyone thinks that "nature" is a good thing, but few can

grasp the difference between natural and unnatural.

If a single new bud is snipped off a fruit tree with a pair of scissors,

that may bring about disorder which cannot be undone. '

When growing according to the natural form, branches spread alternately from the trunk

and the leaves receive sunlight uniformly. If this sequence is disrupted

the branches come into conflict, lie one upon another and become

tangled, and the leaves wither in the places where the sun cannot

penetrate.

Insect damage develops. If the tree is not pruned the following year more withered branches will appear.

Human beings with their tampering do something wrong, leave the

damage unrepaired, and when the adverse results accumulate, work with

all their might to correct them. When the corrective actions appear to be

successful, they come to view these measures as splendid

accomplishments.

People do this over and over again. It is as if a fool

were to stomp on and break the tiles of his roof. Then when it starts to

rain and the ceiling begins to rot away, he hastily climbs up to mend the

damage, rejoicing in the end that he has accomplished a miraculous

solution.

It is the same with the scientist. He pores over books night and day,

straining his eyes and becoming nearsighted, and if you wonder what on

earth he has been working on all that time-it is to become the inventor of

eyeglasses to correct nearsightedness.

 

 

Here is some about Master Cho

 

 

 

Natural Farming uses methods that observe the laws of nature

and utilizes natural materials and products. It is based on the

principle of interdependence among all living things. It aims

to have a nurturing impact on the environment, in sharp

contrast to the disadvantageous effects that often accompany

modernized and commercialized agriculture.

The observance of the natural cycle and environment-friendly

agricultural practices applied in a modern setting refreshes the

established perspectives on farming and provides an

alternative to technology-intensive agriculture.

HOW NATURAL FARMING BEGAN

Natural Farming (NF) was developed by Dr. Cho Han Kyu at

the Janong Natural Farming Institute in South Korea. It was

originally intended to change the chemical-based and harmful

farming methods that were being practiced in South Korea.

Together with like-minded farmers, he converted his lifelong

studies and his own experiences into an innovative farming

system that not only promotes respect and care for the

environment, but also produces more with less cost and labour.

Natural Farming recognizes the abundance of nature and

utilizes indigenous resources for production. Its basic

philosophy is to maximize the inborn potential of a life form

and its harmony with the environment by not interfering with

their growth and development or forcing the crops to yield

more than what they can. Natural Farmers believe that the

best way to achieve top quality yield is to respect the nature of

life.

The NF methodology is based on the Nutritive Cycle Theory,

that guides the Natural Farmer on what inputs to apply, how

much and how often. Natural Farming applies the principle of

interdependence in which people should nature, instead of

surmounting it or undermining it.

Natural Farming is also envisioned so as to contribute to the

alleviation of poverty, disease and environmental destruction

by providing an alternative means of livelihood and food

production.

As a farming method that goes back to basics using materials

from nature and without force or chemicals. Natural Farming

guarantees its farmers healthy and strong products needed to

provide for their families and society. Natural farming

respecting the natural cycle of life is more than a farming

technique. It is a philosophy, a new economics and a way of

life.

STRENGTHS AND BENEFITS

Environment-Friendly: Its inputs are made from natural

materials, protecting the crops from harmful chemicals used

as fertilizers in modern agriculture. In livestock raising,

Natural Farming is considered a revolutionary breakthrough,

accomplishing the dream method of “Zero emission”. No

wastewater is emitted. Also wastes are recycled and converted

to resources.

Higher Yield: It strictly follows the Nutritive Cycle Theory,

using accurate amounts of substances at the precise moment,

nourishing the soil with right amounts of nutrients when the

plants or animals need it.

Low Cost: It helps lessen the farmers financial burden with

the use of homemade materials and making use of resources

from the farm. 2

High Quality: Better-quality crops and livestock is the

result of non-usage of chemicals those are harmful to their

production as well as the environment.

Adaptable: NF can be replicated in any region ingredients

and products used by Janong Natural Farming Institute in

South Korea can be substituted with the natural resources

distinct to each region or ecosystem.

Farmer / User Friendly: Methods are free of toxic and

poisonous chemicals, which are dangerous to a user’s health.

With Natural Farming, farmers cultivate their own substances

that truly provide the nutrients to the crops and animals, it also

helps without harming the plants, animals and humans.

Respect for Life: Natural Farming gives utmost respect and

care to the crops and animals following the natural cycle of

life. Better productivity and even better harvest can be made

when one nurses and gives attention to its environment.

Edited July 30, 2013 by ion

[Marblehead]

Is anyone else into this?

I'm not but there was enough interest for me to read your thread and it is nice to know that there are some who are carrying on the tradition.

[三江源]

It sounds great and ideal.

 

I live in a city so being 'into ' this is only on a fantasy level for me.

[ion]

Im not sure of your situation cat, I know certain city dwellers like people in Los Angeles could certainly apply this philosophy and technology to their yards or roof top gardens, but in a New York type city it would be difficult unless you had acsess to a roof top, or some kind of actual space. Ive been using it with potted plants but the best results are when its done holisticly, and that requires some earth or a large enough raised bed, maybe 100gallon pots.

 

But a large part of a persons sucsess is based on soil ecology. In natural farming, the aim is to bring the soil to a natural pristine state. The soil of an old growth forest is a perfect example.

 

This type of soil has a massive network of mycelium and other microorganisms that delegate the nurients, recycle, circulate and distribute the nutrients. When a healthy soil ecology is in action nutrients are transported by fungi from one part of a grow site to another so that everything is being fed what they need as they need it.

 

Roots pick up nutrients when they are where the roots are. Fungi will transpot nutrients from remote locations to where they are lacking/being used/needed. If there is a defincy of nutrients in one area, fungi will transport it there. When a bear poops in the woods, the poop becomes colonised by forest soil microorganisms that creep up from within the arth. Once the bear poop is permeated with hyphae(fungi cells) the nutrients are at once being channeled and transported throughout the forest by the invisable network of mycelium beneath the forest. This network is actually several networks inter woven, each associating with the other in a healthy balanced way that maintains the life of a forest. Each of these networks is and has several miles of hyphae strands in every inch of soil and they span large areas equaling millions and millions of miles of underground channels where just as in a brain, information is being sent.

 

 

 

Four Principles:

The first is No Cultivation:

That is, no ploughing or turning of the soil. For centuries, farmers and gardeners have assumed that the plough is essential for growing crops. However, non-cultivation is fundamental to natural gardening and farming. The earth cultivates itself naturally by means of the penetration of plant roots and the activity of micro-organisms, small animals, and earthworms.

The second is No Chemical fertilizers:

If you give back to the earth what comes from your kitchen waste, animal waste and even your own waste products, there is no necessity for chemical fertilizers. People interfere with nature and, try as they may, they cannot heal the resulting wounds. Their careless farming practices drain the soil of essential nutrients and the result is yearly depletion of the land. If left to itself, the soil maintains its fertility naturally, in accordance with the orderly cycle of plant and animal life.

The third is No Weeding:

Weeds play their part in building soil fertility and in balancing the biological community. As a fundamental principle, weeds should be controlled, through being cut down and left where they fall, and not removed. Straw mulch, and ground cover inter-planted dense growing crops provide effective weed control.

The fourth is No Usage of Chemicals:

From the time that weak plants developed because of such unnatural practices as ploughing and fertilizing, disease and insect imbalance became a great problem in agriculture. Nature, left alone, is in perfect balance. Harmful insects and plant diseases are always present, but do not occur in nature to an extent which requires the use of poisonous chemicals. The sensible approach to disease and insect control is to grow sturdy crops in a healthy environment.

Also correct watering practices eliminate many problems as the immune system of the plants are lowered if they get shallow watering. The roots are prone to turning upwards which cause the plant to struggle and diseases get the upper hand.

Nature Does Not Change:

An object seen in isolation from the whole is not the real thing.

To the extent that people separate themselves from nature, they spin out further and further from the centre. At the same time, a centripetal effect asserts itself and the desire to return to nature arises. But if people merely become caught up in reacting, moving to the left or to the right, depending on conditions, the result is only more activity. The non-moving point of origin, which lies outside the realm of relativity, is passed over, unnoticed. I believe that even "returning-to-nature" and antipollution activities, no matter how commendable, are not moving toward a genuine solution if they are carried out solely in reaction to the over development of the present age. Nature does not change, although the way of viewing nature invariably changes from age to age. —

The One-Straw Revolution, by Masanobu Fukuoka.

 

 

 

 

Natural Farming (NF) has a concrete approach as to how best

to practice farming while observing and respecting the laws of

nature utilizing only what nature provides. NF has farming

inputs that are proven to be very effective in the cultivation of

crops. These inputs can increase yields better than the harmful

commercial fertilizers and pesticides. This chapter explain /

deals with the Natural Farming Inputs their preparations and

applications.

IMPORTANCE OF IMOs

Natural Farming produces a good yield when the land

cultivated has an excellent soil condition for crops.

Microorganisms play an important role in making soil good

for growing plants. These microorganisms can also be

collected and cultured.

Natural Farming promotes the use of Indigenous

Microorganisms (IMOs). The microorganisms that have been

living in the local area for a long time are best for farming

because they are very powerful and effective.

They have survived and can survive the extreme climatic conditions of

the local environment much better than artificially produced

microorganisms, which are cultured in some foreign or

artificial environment. And since they are already available in

the field, they are considered the best inputs for conditioning

the land.

Organisms that are found under the heat of the sun are largely

different than those found in shaded areas such as under the

bamboo trees. Dr. Cho advocates that it is better to culture

microorganisms from different areas in order to collect

different kinds of microorganisms (Microbial Diversity).

NATURAL FARMING INPUTS

It is also good to culture microorganisms at different weather

conditions and to mix different types of microorganisms.

In “Non-Chemical” agriculture practices we do not feed the

plant. We nurture the soil and the soil nurtures the plant

through the IMOs.

Microorganisms have two major functions in farming:

1. Microorganisms decompose complex organic compounds

such as dead bodies of plants and animals and wastes into

nutrients, making them easily absorbable by plants.

2. They can create compounds such as antibiotic substances,

enzymes and lactic acids that can suppress various diseases

and promote healthy soil conditions.

IMOs are used primarily to create fertile and healthy soil

condition that is ideal for farming and to prevent plant

diseases. In Natural Farming, IMOs are used in treatments

applied to the soil in order to improve its fertility and health.

 

Most farmers are unaware of what dirt is. They think its dirt, that its lacking and needs repleneishing. Its lacking and needs refortifying.

 

This is because they dont know how to plant into what they dont know what it is, so they reason with them selves that they need to dump nutrients , and furthermore, till them into the ground. This literaly destroys everything nature has built, in some cases over m100s of years, even millions.

 

Tilling creates a soil that becomes hard packed and requires more tilling. Tille soil loses water, and plants dont drink the water as efficently in tilled soil, so much of the nutrient rich water runs off and created the problems associated with fertilizer run off.

 

Tilling actually destroys and kills the mycelial network that supports everything from meadows to ancient old growth forests, and when fertilizers are tilled in whether they are organic or synthetic fertilizers, an environment that is not suitable for fungi to flourish in is created. Also the plants are weakened because the roots dont push through the soil, so when they reach the depth of the tillage which is usually 1 or 2 feet deep max, the roots can not penetrate the deeper untilled soil, so the roots will only get to be a foot or two in length, where as grasses like wheat and rice have roots that naturally reach 3 feet deep.

 

My method of no-till tilling is to laydown all the existing plants in the are to be cultivated either just by laying them over, using a weed eater or my personal favorite, the hand sickle.

 

After the vegitation is layed down, I water the ground and cover it securely with card board. All the vegitation dies and decomposes by fungi and bacteria. The area is filled with earth worms, the roots of the plants all decompose and the whole thing becomes compost and worm castings.

 

Soil like this is naturaly aerorated. The earth worms that are attracted and abundunt in and by this environment till the ground thouroughly under the cardboard, the roots of the plants that were there, leave the earth airy and rich with decompose organic matter and worm poop.

 

After a few weeks this area would be ready for. A thin layer of dirt is used to cover the cardboard which under the dirt will become fungi and worm food. This thin layer of dirt would then be covered with IMO watered then mulched, In a few days anything could be planted, the roots will easily penetrate what ever cardboard remains and easily grow through the rootzone area of the last crop or previous vegitation, but since it wasnt tooeasy, the roots are strong and will grow even deeper then the previous crops rootzone. If the roots of that plant are left to decompose, the next crop will grow deeper and deeper.

 

The IMO attracts even more worms and other organisms and ground actually swells up and becomes so airy that you can drive a rod through it, so your soil and top soil become deeper, yet also inflates, but it is all in a completely natural state, not tilled up with an altered chemistry.

[i am]

Similar to permaculture?

 

Stuff I'm very interested in but haven't made the time to really get into.

Edited July 30, 2013 by i am

[thelerner]

I'm interested in organic and natural ways of gardening, but this guy sounds like a quack.

I quote:

"Before the end of the war, when I went up to the citrus orchard to

practice what I then thought was natural farming, I did no pruning and

left the orchard to itself. The branches became tangled, the trees were

attacked by insects and almost two acres of mandarin orange trees

withered and died. From that time on the question, "What is the natural

pattern?" was always in my mind. In the process of arriving at the

answer, I wiped out another 400 trees. Finally I felt I could say with

certainty: "This is the natural pattern."

Is he saying he used his method of no pruning and wiped out 2 acres of mandarin trees (at a time when Japanese were starving?). Then wiped out another 400 trees! WTF how did he survive the lynch mobs? His theory if you expose children to music they won't be able to hear or appreciate birds singing or ponds gurgling is ridiculously over the top. I'd want to see evidence in pounds per acre that he knows what he's talking about.

Some of his ideas are good. Certainly no-til farming has been evolving since the 1940's and been gaining hugely in modern farms in recent decades. We're also seeing more farming w/ fewer 'rows'.

He may be thinking about old generations, but modern farmers know quite a bit about soil. If he thinks otherwise he's 30 years behind. All I can say is, talk to a farmer, you can find them at any farmers market, they're way more savvy then you think. Note, imo the suggestion they think soil is 'dirt' will be taken as a lunatic insult.

I'm a very lazy gardener, I don't trellis my cherry tomatoes, peppers or cucumbers. And I pay a price for such laziness in hard to pick, rotted, and less productive veggies.

Edited July 30, 2013 by thelerner

[ion]

Similar to permaculture?

 

 

Yea, it is a form of organic farming and permaculture, but using nature as the model, following the nutritive cycle which means only applying nutrients per the stage of the plants life cycle rather then using a base fertilizer at the time of planting wdhich creates an imbalance. Plants have different nutrient requirements depending on how old they are, and what stage they are in. When they are very young, they need none, they have nutrients within the seed and cotyledons of the sprout that is perfectly adequate to grow into a seedling, even if there is no nutrients in the sprouting medium.

 

Once they grow a little older and have a few sets of real leaves and a few internode or branching sites, they can be fed. It is typical for nitrogen to start being applied to plants at this stage or even younger to promote a green lush appearence and to force the plants to begin photosynthesising more but this produced week plants susceptable to pathogenic molds, parasites and disease.

 

Plants at this stage have not yet fully come into being yet and should not be forced into work. Master Cho equates feeding seedlings growth fertilizers with getting drunk in the morning.

 

With natural farming, only home made liquid inputs are used, at the seedling stage the young plants are not given nitrogen but a water soluble calcium solution is made from ricewine vinegar and some sort of shell powder like old eggdhells or oyster shell powder. I used crushed abalone shell recently because those are easy to find on the beach where I live. The shell is pulverised, then the powder is mixed, 1 part powder to 10 parts vinegar. The acid in the vinegar reacts with the calcium and turns bubbly and foamy. Bits and pieces of dhell float to the top and sink to the botom over and over. Once the reaction stops the liquid is pouredd off and filtered. The liquid is now full of calcium acetate and can be diluted to 500 to 1000 times or 1tblspoon per gallon.

 

When the plant is totaly in its vegative stage we begin to apply whats called FPJ, or fermented plant juice wich is full of nutrients, phyto-chemicals, growth hormones and growth regulators. This is made from plants from the farm or from the local nature. Vegitative plants are also fed whats called FAA, or fish amino acids, similar to but different then fish emulsion.

 

When the plant begins to flower we give them a hommade solution of calcium phosphate made from saving bones from dinner, or finding them in a local forest. The bones are charred until they are black, then silver-greyish white. This charred bone is mixed with vinegar, 1 part charred bone to 10 parts vinegar. A reaction similar to the shell and vinegar reaction takes place, and when its over the solution is poured off, filtered and applied at the same dilution rate.

 

When the plant is fully flowering it is fed with a phosphoric acid solution which is made by collecting unripe sour fruits. Unripe fruits are sour because they contain high ammounts of various acids, phosphoric acid being one of the more abundant ones is what plants require to make lots of blossoms, lots of blossoms meens lotsa fruit sites.

 

When the plant is finishing up the fruiting stage it is given calcium again and diluted sea water at a couple of points as well.

 

This is the nutritive cycle and one of the things that sets natural farming practices apart from regular organic farming and regular permaculture.

 

Plus the no tillage rule sets us apart. Permaculture and organic farming are kind of vague and ambiguous descriptions and do not necessarily imply a natural practice.

 

Natural farming however is a precise methodology that strictly adheres to the laws and way of nature.

Edited July 30, 2013 by ion

[ion]

 

I'm interested in organic and natural ways of gardening, but this guy sounds like a quack.

I quote:

"Before the end of the war, when I went up to the citrus orchard to

practice what I then thought was natural farming, I did no pruning and

left the orchard to itself. The branches became tangled, the trees were

attacked by insects and almost two acres of mandarin orange trees

withered and died. From that time on the question, "What is the natural

pattern?" was always in my mind. In the process of arriving at the

answer, I wiped out another 400 trees. Finally I felt I could say with

certainty: "This is the natural pattern."

Is he saying he used his method of no pruning and wiped out 2 acres of mandarin trees (at a time when Japanese were starving?). Then wiped out another 400 trees! WTF how did he survive the lynch mobs? His theory if you expose children to music they won't be able to hear or appreciate birds singing or ponds gurgling is ridiculously over the top. I'd want to see evidence in pounds per acre that he knows what he's talking about.

Some of his ideas are good. Certainly no-til farming has been evolving since the 1940's and been gaining hugely in modern farms in recent decades. We're also seeing more farming w/ fewer 'rows'.

He may be thinking about old generations, but modern farmers know quite a bit about soil. If he thinks otherwise he's 30 years behind. All I can say is, talk to a farmer, you can find them at any farmers market, they're way more savvy then you think. Note, imo the suggestion they think soil is 'dirt' will be taken as a lunatic insult.

I'm a very lazy gardener, I don't trellis my cherry tomatoes, peppers or cucumbers. And I pay a price for such laziness in hard to pick, rotted, and less productive veggies.

 

 

I'm interested in organic and natural ways of gardening, but this guy sounds like a quack.

I quote:

"Before the end of the war, when I went up to the citrus orchard to

practice what I then thought was natural farming, I did no pruning and

left the orchard to itself. The branches became tangled, the trees were

attacked by insects and almost two acres of mandarin orange trees

withered and died. From that time on the question, "What is the natural

pattern?" was always in my mind. In the process of arriving at the

answer, I wiped out another 400 trees. Finally I felt I could say with

certainty: "This is the natural pattern."

Is he saying he used his method of no pruning and wiped out 2 acres of mandarin trees (at a time when Japanese were starving?). Then wiped out another 400 trees! WTF how did he survive the lynch mobs? His theory if you expose children to music they won't be able to hear or appreciate birds singing or ponds gurgling is ridiculously over the top. I'd want to see evidence in pounds per acre that he knows what he's talking about.

Some of his ideas are good. Certainly no-til farming has been evolving since the 1940's and been gaining hugely in modern farms in recent decades. We're also seeing more farming w/ fewer 'rows'.

He may be thinking about old generations, but modern farmers know quite a bit about soil. If he thinks otherwise he's 30 years behind. All I can say is, talk to a farmer, you can find them at any farmers market, they're way more savvy then you think. Note, imo the suggestion they think soil is 'dirt' will be taken as a lunatic insult.

I'm a very lazy gardener, I don't trellis my cherry tomatoes, peppers or cucumbers. And I pay a price for such laziness in hard to pick, rotted, and less productive veggies.

 

 

I'm interested in organic and natural ways of gardening, but this guy sounds like a quack.

I quote:

"Before the end of the war, when I went up to the citrus orchard to

practice what I then thought was natural farming, I did no pruning and

left the orchard to itself. The branches became tangled, the trees were

attacked by insects and almost two acres of mandarin orange trees

withered and died. From that time on the question, "What is the natural

pattern?" was always in my mind. In the process of arriving at the

answer, I wiped out another 400 trees. Finally I felt I could say with

certainty: "This is the natural pattern."

Is he saying he used his method of no pruning and wiped out 2 acres of mandarin trees (at a time when Japanese were starving?). Then wiped out another 400 trees! WTF how did he survive the lynch mobs? His theory if you expose children to music they won't be able to hear or appreciate birds singing or ponds gurgling is ridiculously over the top. I'd want to see evidence in pounds per acre that he knows what he's talking about.

Some of his ideas are good. Certainly no-til farming has been evolving since the 1940's and been gaining hugely in modern farms in recent decades. We're also seeing more farming w/ fewer 'rows'.

He may be thinking about old generations, but modern farmers know quite a bit about soil. If he thinks otherwise he's 30 years behind. All I can say is, talk to a farmer, you can find them at any farmers market, they're way more savvy then you think. Note, imo the suggestion they think soil is 'dirt' will be taken as a lunatic insult.

I'm a very lazy gardener, I don't trellis my cherry tomatoes, peppers or cucumbers. And I pay a price for such laziness in hard to pick, rotted, and less productive veggies.

 

 

I'm interested in organic and natural ways of gardening, but this guy sounds like a quack.

I quote:

"Before the end of the war, when I went up to the citrus orchard to

practice what I then thought was natural farming, I did no pruning and

left the orchard to itself. The branches became tangled, the trees were

attacked by insects and almost two acres of mandarin orange trees

withered and died. From that time on the question, "What is the natural

pattern?" was always in my mind. In the process of arriving at the

answer, I wiped out another 400 trees. Finally I felt I could say with

certainty: "This is the natural pattern."

Is he saying he used his method of no pruning and wiped out 2 acres of mandarin trees (at a time when Japanese were starving?). Then wiped out another 400 trees! WTF how did he survive the lynch mobs? His theory if you expose children to music they won't be able to hear or appreciate birds singing or ponds gurgling is ridiculously over the top. I'd want to see evidence in pounds per acre that he knows what he's talking about.

Some of his ideas are good. Certainly no-til farming has been evolving since the 1940's and been gaining hugely in modern farms in recent decades. We're also seeing more farming w/ fewer 'rows'.

He may be thinking about old generations, but modern farmers know quite a bit about soil. If he thinks otherwise he's 30 years behind. All I can say is, talk to a farmer, you can find them at any farmers market, they're way more savvy then you think. Note, imo the suggestion they think soil is 'dirt' will be taken as a lunatic insult.

I'm a very lazy gardener, I don't trellis my cherry tomatoes, peppers or cucumbers. And I pay a price for such laziness in hard to pick, rotted, and less productive veggies.

 

 

I'm interested in organic and natural ways of gardening, but this guy sounds like a quack.

I quote:

"Before the end of the war, when I went up to the citrus orchard to

practice what I then thought was natural farming, I did no pruning and

left the orchard to itself. The branches became tangled, the trees were

attacked by insects and almost two acres of mandarin orange trees

withered and died. From that time on the question, "What is the natural

pattern?" was always in my mind. In the process of arriving at the

answer, I wiped out another 400 trees. Finally I felt I could say with

certainty: "This is the natural pattern."

Is he saying he used his method of no pruning and wiped out 2 acres of mandarin trees (at a time when Japanese were starving?). Then wiped out another 400 trees! WTF how did he survive the lynch mobs? His theory if you expose children to music they won't be able to hear or appreciate birds singing or ponds gurgling is ridiculously over the top. I'd want to see evidence in pounds per acre that he knows what he's talking about.

Some of his ideas are good. Certainly no-til farming has been evolving since the 1940's and been gaining hugely in modern farms in recent decades. We're also seeing more farming w/ fewer 'rows'.

He may be thinking about old generations, but modern farmers know quite a bit about soil. If he thinks otherwise he's 30 years behind. All I can say is, talk to a farmer, you can find them at any farmers market, they're way more savvy then you think. Note, imo the suggestion they think soil is 'dirt' will be taken as a lunatic insult.

I'm a very lazy gardener, I don't trellis my cherry tomatoes, peppers or cucumbers. And I pay a price for such laziness in hard to pick, rotted, and less productive veggies.

What he is saying there about the orange trees is that like all other trees, if you never prune them to begin with, you wont have to maintain them ever again and they wont turn into a tangled mess that promotes disease, that you could even go away to war and when you came back your trees would be healthy.

 

Conversely, the moment you remove one bud from the tree you have to dedicatedly spend time and money yearly to mantain its state, and if you dont it will turn into a total mess requiring masses of wok and becomes susceptible to disease.

 

The natural aproach would be to never prune, not once, there fore yo dont have too. Once the trees are a few years old they are producing just as much fruit as if they were pruned.

 

The fruits can still be thinned and plant foods can be made out of the thinned fruits.

[ion]

Modern farmers dont know plenty about soil, thats why most, even permaculture and organic farmers still till soil.

[i am]

I work in natural resources, and I can say with certainty that ranchers in at least one western mountain state attend and organize workshops on no till farming and planting cover crops. There are long presentations on it at conservation district (local farmer and rancher groups, formed after the dustbowl years as "soil conservation" districts, for those not familiar) conferences.

 

Might not be in widespread use yet, but definitely on the radar of any farmer or rancher around here.

 

The last I heard from anyone even remotely involved in permaculture was absolutely no tilling. They're all about soil.

Edited July 30, 2013 by i am

[voidisyinyang]

Earthworms are exotic species were I live as they were killed off by the glaciers - so they are invasive. They also will eat seeds, etc.

 

So I take the earthworms out of my compost.

 

I don't till the beds of compost once I make the beds.

 

I rely on humanure for my compost source - I visited the most traditional Berber village in Morocco where humanure compost was the main way to grow all the plant food sources for the village for thousands of years.

 

So for $20 I can grow $1000 worth of food - retail price for organic. Of course I would never try to sell humanure-grown food - probably illegal. haha.

 

But Taoist wise - the sublimation and purification of manure and the lower emotions -- Mantak Chia calls this composting of the energy. So Mantak Chia makes the direct gardening reference to the energy cycling.

 

Yeah I don't rely on my garden as my main food source but it definitely saves me money - and also humanure saves money by not flushing the toilet - so you don't need to try to clean the sewage water and you don't need the electricity to flush.

 

So I just make sure it has composted a couple months at least.

 

Yeah Ion - sounds like you're a real expert! I was wondering what to do with my shells - since they are in my compost and garden but obviously did not break down .. turning them into calcium acetate is a brilliant idea.

 

I also just weed the beds but not around the beds and so then just cut down the growth and I figure that adds to the nitrogen source also.

 

But yeah I had a bumper crop last year as we had the earliest spring for Minnesota but this year was the latest spring! haha.

 

Still I put in more beds - I did dig out the grass for the beds but save the soil which is pretty much clay - and so then add in forest soil which I just haul in.

 

So anyway I love watching the bees pollinate - was concerned as we had a bee hive last year but it disappeared in the fall - not sure what happened. But some bees have shown up - I grew nasturiums -- and anyway last year I had hummingbirds in the garden all the time but with the snow we had in May - it scared off a lot of the tropical song birds. Just had a hummingbird show up around the house the past few days so maybe it will be in the garden.

[ion]

Yea, no till farming exists, and has been used a little here and there for grain fields and hay farms a bit, and a little bit with perennial plants and trees/vines like an apple orchard or a vineyard but orchards and vineyards that are left untilled, often began in tilled soi.l Generally the annuals grown on organic farms are grown in tilled soil, Whether or not crop rotation is practiced, or greenmanure/covercrops are used, they are generally tilled in with or without other fertilizers and ammendments. The natural farming guys have not only headwayed the concept decaes ago, but have taken it to all toogeather deeper places and higher levels.

 

In permaculture sheet mulching with cardboard and layering to build top soil instead of tilling is gaining more popularity, but they still like there tractors, and all though they do produce their own resources (per the definition of permaculture), they are not necessarily applying them in a natural way, or following the plants nutritive cycle.

 

Furthermore, permaculturists and organic farmers still use pesticides, organic though they may be, in natural farming there is a strict policy against the use of any pesticide, but other measures are taken, most importantly a stromg healthy plant in healthy soil in a balanced environment. They are not needed if those needs are met so thats what we do, plus use traps and attractants to detour any insects.

 

Hardly any one that is using bio-dynamic practices is using indigenous micro-organisms. They are generally buyng laboratory grown microorganisms, which are foreign to the environment they are being added to which is an imbalance and requires more applications. Using laborotory cultures, or any foreign cultures at all will never lead to an established forest like network in the grow area, and if the foreign species did, then it would be an invasive species which would caue a major imbalance.

 

In bio-dynamic farming with foreign organisms/bought product, it may have the effect of a plant food; a short lived effect ue to the enzymes and compounds contained in the solution, but the organisms will likely fail. With IMO's several years, virtual eons of topsoil growth and soilecological development can be the effect in a relatively short period of time, because the IMO's will establish themselves and form the microbial network of a developed woodland.

 

Thats some of what sets natural farming apart from organic farming or even regular permaculture, which is a much more organized and cyclic then organic farming which is just an organic mimic of old school farms and corporate farms.

 

Again, most cover crops are then tilled in, which in every way is contrary to naural topsoil and ecological development, and thus contrary to the philosophy of nature farming.

 

People who have not seen IMO in action will never under stand why its different then the stuff in their compost, or the mycorhizal stuff in their potting soil, or how its different then mulching.

 

IMO is an entire microbial community which has spent 1,000's of years adjusting to the subtlist of nuances in climatic features, and thrive best in the chemical and biological atmosphere. Not only are they adjusted to the environment, but they are also adjusted to eachother and any other microorganisms and various creatures of that environment.

 

IMO is not just a fungi, it is several fungus, yeasts, actinobacteria, lactic acid bacteia, & and many other microscopic or single celled organisms. As long as it has a nutrition source, moisture, and is out of direct sunlight and wind at least most of the time, these organisms will not die, but live and grow in your environment. If they begin to dry up or run out of nutrients they will go dormant untill it becomes moist, and by then there will be more nutrients.

 

IMO is collected, and then the culture is expanded on a massive level. You end up with a huge pile of glowing white fuzz that smells like a pizzaria or bakery and a box of crushed mushrooms, with a hint of ripening apples, then you double its mass on the same type of substrate. The pile of fuzz gets to be over 130F in the center and has to be turned regularly, and while it is thriving it is mixed with 1 part soil from the near by wilderness full of its microorganisms etc, and 1 part soil from the grow site which togeather equal the mass of IMO, and the three are mixed together. The IMO using its substrate as a nutrient source has the streanght and ability to thouroughly permeate and colonize the soil mix which not only results in the IMOs developing the enzymes to break down the components of those soils, but it gives them the chance to adjust to the microbial communities of the soils and so it develops the anti-biotics and compounds required to settle into the growing environment flawlessly.

 

And again, the IMO has absolutely no trouble setting into the soil and becomming firmly established. Only then can the mycelial network begin to establish itself.

 

The inputs made and used in naturall farming like FPJ, FAA, and even the calcium are both for the plant, and for the micro-organisms. I give my soil fermented ripe fruit, and fermented potatoes with sugartowrds the end of the plants life cycle. this is to maintain a healthy thriving microbial community in the soil and will all become hummus and contribute to the network wich in turn feeds the plant what it needs.

[voidisyinyang]

O.K. I started using field peas as a green manure but then I just flipped them - dig out the greens and then put them back in the soil only underneath the soil and then plant on top of the soil.

 

So it's not really tilling -just one shovel under the pea roots.

 

I would have to save up all the cardboard and it -- I don't think it would break down fast enough -- since we just have a long winter and so pretty much stops all bacterial composting....

[ion]

Earthworms are exotic species were I live as they were killed off by the glaciers - so they are invasive. They also will eat seeds, etc.

 

So I take the earthworms out of my compost.

 

I don't till the beds of compost once I make the beds.

 

I rely on humanure for my compost source - I visited the most traditional Berber village in Morocco where humanure compost was the main way to grow all the plant food sources for the village for thousands of years.

 

So for $20 I can grow $1000 worth of food - retail price for organic. Of course I would never try to sell humanure-grown food - probably illegal. haha.

 

But Taoist wise - the sublimation and purification of manure and the lower emotions -- Mantak Chia calls this composting of the energy. So Mantak Chia makes the direct gardening reference to the energy cycling.

 

Yeah I don't rely on my garden as my main food source but it definitely saves me money - and also humanure saves money by not flushing the toilet - so you don't need to try to clean the sewage water and you don't need the electricity to flush.

 

So I just make sure it has composted a couple months at least.

 

Yeah Ion - sounds like you're a real expert! I was wondering what to do with my shells - since they are in my compost and garden but obviously did not break down .. turning them into calcium acetate is a brilliant idea.

 

I also just weed the beds but not around the beds and so then just cut down the growth and I figure that adds to the nitrogen source also.

 

But yeah I had a bumper crop last year as we had the earliest spring for Minnesota but this year was the latest spring! haha.

 

Still I put in more beds - I did dig out the grass for the beds but save the soil which is pretty much clay - and so then add in forest soil which I just haul in.

 

So anyway I love watching the bees pollinate - was concerned as we had a bee hive last year but it disappeared in the fall - not sure what happened. But some bees have shown up - I grew nasturiums -- and anyway last year I had hummingbirds in the garden all the time but with the snow we had in May - it scared off a lot of the tropical song birds. Just had a hummingbird show up around the house the past few days so maybe it will be in the garden.

 

Im stoked to hear you are using humanure. Its the obvious course for what we will have to do with our waiste and something Id like to try using. Master cho has a method for decomposing human waiste quickly where it is rendered harmless and perfectly safe to use on food crops.

 

Its pretty simple and involves innoculating with yeasts & lactic acid bacteria, letting it ferment, then adding IMO and allowing the imos to thouroughly convert everything.

 

I grew a crop of tobacco last year, 72 full sized plants over head in height each using up about 3 to 4 feet space around them for the bottom leaves. They were grown using natural farming practiced.. During the growth stage they were givven urine as their main nitrogen source, along with snail emulsion made from all the snails in the garden.

[Flolfolil]

pardon my slight derail, but you need electricity to flush a toilet? i though that was all water pressure? considering how i can flush my toilet when the water and power is cut off by pouring a bowl of water in the bowl quickly...

[Marblehead]

Im stoked to hear you are using humanure.

During my first tour in Germany (1960 - 1964) most farmers were still using it. Smelled really bad but served the purpose.

[Marblehead]

pardon my slight derail, but you need electricity to flush a toilet? i though that was all water pressure? considering how i can flush my toilet when the water and power is cut off by pouring a bowl of water in the bowl quickly...

Yes, possible but not practical on a daily basis.

[ion]

Digging is unavoidable some times, but natural farming points out the importance of starting a crop from seed where it will spend its whole life. Master Cho says, and I hadve observed this prior to experiencing natural farming so I concur, that a seed has alot of natural inborn potentiel that can be lost in pots or through transplaning; its original chi.

 

Plants started from seed have a powerful chi, and if planted in good soil it will grow quickly sending its root outward and down deep, the plant itself will quickly shoot up branching outward and stretching upward, but if the root is at all hindered, obstructec, or bound up in anyway, the plant, though it seems normal will never return to its original vitality; it will never express that vigor that was contained chi in the seed.

 

If a seed is sprouted in a pot, it quickly sends out a taproot that penetrates quite deep, the second the finest hair extending from the tap root toches the bottom of the pot its original vitality is hindered, the second any lateral roots find the perimeter its vitality is lost, so it is important to plant seeds on site with plenty of space around them, way more then youd think, and in good natural soil.

 

The vitality of original chi can also be lost if there are too many nutrients in the soil the seed is planted in. If it begins to uptake nutrients, it does not rely on the vitality of the seeds chi. Its growth will become a reaction to the chemical environment. So the seed is planted on prepared natural soil, once the seedling is forming real leaves picking up a naturlal momentum in photosynthesis and requires certain chemicals in surplus that is when water soluble calcium is adde, because the plant which is grown by chi and has developed inner streangth not dependent on the chemical environment can handle and benifit from a surplus of calcium during that stage, and the presence of the chemical will not alter the growth of the pllant in an un natural way.

 

But digging is unavoidable and at times required, so when it is one its done minamly. There are other methods besides using card board too. You can just chop down and lay the weeds on their sides, and or pile dirt over the choppe weeds or pile mulch. Gardens over run with weeds have sindly plants stretching and competing for air and light. This does not necessarily meen the weeds need pulling. Chop them down to the roots and use their bodies as mulch. Once the remaining plants have air all around them and begin to recieve the extra light, they will fill out fine and the roots of the dead weeds will decompose.

 

There is 1 method of tilling use in NF, where 1 or two centimeters of soil are tilled up, because one of the negative sides to tilling is it inevidably causes gazillions of weed seeds to sprout so many that it becomes unnaturaly thick with weeds, so we take advantage of that and till up a centimeter.

 

This causes the seeds to sprout, they are let to grow until they flower but before they go to seed, and the centimeter or two is again tilled killing all the weeds before they go to seed.

 

If you dont or cant have earthworms in your area, that is ok. Old roots and any and all of the other soil creatures will still aerorate your soil. Microrganisms aerorate soggy wt anerobic soils all the time. Natural farmers cultivate lactic acid bacteria and use it extensively through out the life cycle of a plant and in soil preperation, feeding live stock and people. Lacobacteria create hummus and aerorate anerobic soils, conditioning them for fungi to flourish which alone can prepare and aerorate the soil to perfection as far as roots are concerned.

[voidisyinyang]

During my first tour in Germany (1960 - 1964) most farmers were still using it. Smelled really bad but served the purpose.

 

nah -- see that's the huge misunderstanding the West --

 

compost should not smell.

 

I meant humanure compost.

 

I mean people's brains freeze at the term humanure because they don't understand compost.

 

It's amazing how people don't understand what compost is.

 

It is such a fundamentally important thing to understand compost.

 

So the nitrogen in the manure feeds the aerobic bacteria which eat the carbon which then heats up the compost to over 106 degrees F. and then it sanitizes the compost by killing the anaerobic bacteria.

 

That's the basic concept but Sweden is even now promoting humanure compost as a way to sanitize waste and grow food in Africa, etc.

 

IT's called ecological sanitation or "ecosan" - of course that term is the opposite of calling it humanure. haha.

 

I would feel kind of guilty calling it ecological sanitation.

 

Sure there is a broad window here - not enough oxygen and you get methane which smells.

 

Not enough carbin or too much nitrogen - same difference.

 

But just add more carbon or water or more nitrogen.

 

So if you read about kitchen compost TPTB say how it does not get hot enough to sterilize it.

 

Ironically - this is due to LACK of manure - not enough nitrogen. haha.

 

But instead TPTB say it's because the compost pile is not big enough - not enough critical mass....

 

It doesn't have to be that big -- ....

 

Anyway I used biochar last year and that was AWESOME since the black heats it up real fast and the charcoal provides little nanopores that house the bacteria and so it actually grows on its own - called "Terra Vida" -- living earth - from the Amazon.

 

It's how they farmed in the Amazon....

 

O.K. yeah sure -- you can get rotavirus if the compost temp does not get high enough - it is a common death of infants in areas where they don't compost the humanure....

 

So 2 months - waiting - it kills the virus.

 

But I mean I am not guaranteeing anything - on the other hand people in other countries with this -they develop bacteria differently so they develop resistance also.

 

So also ingesting garlic will kill bad bacteria if necessary - a good antibiotic - or terpenes, etc. like thymol -- thyme - or various other herbs.

 

I'm just saying roll with the ecology of it - instead of people trying to sanitize by killing everything....

[Marblehead]

compost should not smell.

I was talking about when it is being transported to the fields and until it has been cultivated into the ground. Even my fish pond waste that I use in my gardens smells bad until I have worked it into the ground.

[xor]

This is interesting stuff. I'd like to try when I'm in a position to.

[Marblehead]

This is interesting stuff. I'd like to try when I'm in a position to.

Yeah, it give one peace that one has worked with "nature's way" when doing stuff like this. I even try to get my flowering annuals to reseed themselves for their next growing season. (Still working on that.)

[Stosh]

pardon my slight derail, but you need electricity to flush a toilet? i though that was all water pressure? considering how i can flush my toilet when the water and power is cut off by pouring a bowl of water in the bowl quickly...

In rural places folks may use a pump to supply the water ,hence , they need electricity.

[Marblehead]

In rural places folks may use a pump to supply the water ,hence , they need electricity.

I collect rain water and then use a submersible electric pump to water the gardens when they need watering.

 

Anyone having a deep well for their home must have electricity to pull the water out of the ground.

[voidisyinyang]

I was talking about when it is being transported to the fields and until it has been cultivated into the ground. Even my fish pond waste that I use in my gardens smells bad until I have worked it into the ground.

 

Naw I compost it first before I put it into the garden.

 

So Ion -- isn't wood ash a good enough source for calcium?

 

I put that in the compost....

 

ummm.....

 

Yeah sure we have an electric pump for water....

 

but still water in the city still needs electricity..... http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/water-needs-electricity-needs-water/?_r=0

 

 

 

May 21, 2009, 12:24 pm

Water Needs Electricity Needs Water … By KEVIN FERGUSON

 

yeah just think if people did humanure composting instead of putting good manure into clean water! Crazy.

 

That's why Rome had to build aqueducts - dirtied their river with their humanure..... meanwhile Asia was composting their manure - like good civilized people..... but the Roman empire just continued onwards West so that dirtying up clean water continues today ... crazy....

 

 

For their part, water- and wastewater utilities consume at least 13 percent of the electricity drawn nationwide each day (a figure that includes end-user heating), according to River Network, an environmental group based in Portland, Ore. Such plants face increasing public pressure to cut energy costs and greenhouse gas emissions.

 

 

Discovered another big pumpkin today - hiding out - got my first pumpkin patch!! At least six pumpkins coming in.

 

Gotta check what kind I planted - pie pumpkin or jack-'o'-lantern pumpkin.

 

Either way I'm gonna eat some of it. haha.

 

Got a couple corn plants taken down by grasshoppers - can't catch them by hand.

 

Any suggestions?

 

.... oh well I got my corn spread out and mixed in polyculture - hopefully will confuse the grasshoppers.

 

Gotta kill the Japanese beetles everyday but they're slow....

Edited August 1, 2013 by pythagoreanfulllotus