yi 以 in DDJ39

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I was looking at a number of translations of DDJ chapter 39 and seeing that everybody seems to be looking at yi 以 in the same way, though it doesn't seem to match up grammatically to translate it as they do.

 

For example, 天得一以清: Cleary has "heaven became clear by attaining unity"

Yin Lutang has "Through possession of the One, the Heaven was clarified"

 

However, the position of yi comes after "one/oneness" and before the final word, be it a noun or verb. I went through Pulleyblank's treatment of yi (pp. 47-50) and it only seems to confirm that these lines have been translated incorrectly.

 

It seems to me that they should appear as "the One was attained due to XYZ" rather than "XYZ was attained due to attainment of the One."

 

This is significant, I believe, since it shows how to attain this "Oneness."

 

Would it not be more correct to translate the following as:

 

 

昔之得一者

In the days when the One was attained

天得一以清

Heaven attained the One by clarity
地得一以寧

Earth attained the One by tranquility
神得一以靈

Spirits attained the One by divine influence
谷得一以盈

The valley attained the One by fullness

 

 

 

Anyone wish to clarify this for me?

 

Many thanks.

 

HE

[thetaoiseasy]

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Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for responding thetaoiseasy. That explains why most translate it this way at least, if it just seems to fit the flow.

 

There are a couple of examples in Pulleyblank's treatment (145, 146) which show how it can be used to mean "and thereby/in order to" but it seemed a much rarer usage and less reflective of these sentences than those giving the meaning "because of."

 

I guess maybe I should just take my experience as a personal one.. a bit more reflection on the lines can show a reversal of the process, while the literal meaning is as it appears.

 

 

Any more points of view are welcome

Edited August 4, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

I can only comment as a casual native speaker, but I'd have to agree with the first two translations.

 

When I read the line, its intuitive to interpret 以 as "so it became" rather than "because," which I think you are getting at.

 

For example, Heaven attained the one, "so it became" clear. Not-- heaven attained the one, because of clarity.

 

I am native speaker too. thetaoiseasy is right on the money. However, even some native scholars didn't get into the right perspective.

 

 

For example, 天得一以清: Cleary has "heaven became clear by attaining unity"

Yin Lutang has "Through possession of the One, the Heaven was clarified"

 

This phrase is a very typical classic way of writing. The thoughts are there but the translations still not too clear.

天得一以清:

Heaven gained Unity becomes clear.

 

Thus the modern interpretation should read as:

When Heaven has gained Tao, then it becomes clear.

 

Note: Where Unity interpreted as "Tao" in the TTC.

Edited August 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I already stated in the other thread that I think your translation is acceptable so I have nothing further to say at this time.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

thanks CD (I had already erased the earlier thanks for contribution via "like" since I saw you posted a full comment.. so I'll add this note to avoid confusion )

 

I see it works as sort of a "therefore" which is probably the most common meaning of yi in the Dao De Jing.

 

Thanks for the speedy reply!

 

I agree that "the One" is synonymous with Dao here, too.

[Marblehead]

I agree that "the One" is synonymous with Dao here, too.

We should be careful here though. Remember, Tao gave birth to One.

 

Edit to add: Yes, I have also, in the past, equated the two as equal. But I think this might be an error.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Marblehead

[thetaoiseasy]

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Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Harmonious Emptiness]

We should be careful here though. Remember, Tao gave birth to One.

 

Edit to add: Yes, I have also, in the past, equated the two as equal. But I think this might be an error.

 

Good point, MH!

 

Wuji is most likely "the One" that Dao gave birth to (ch. 42), so we might say this chapter is talking about when everything was non-dualized as in Wuji; however,

 

we can see that "back in the days" which is being spoken of in chapter 39 is also a time after Wuji had already become Taiji, and the myriad things had appeared from Taiji. Seems that the suggestion is that all had maintained (得 obtained) a state of Wuji and thus further developed in a way which Zen Buddhists (influenced by their Taoist roots, imo) have so well explained as "realizing one's nature."

 

To quote Albert Low, "Everything is pressing out toward being itself to the fullest. Everything seeks to express itself."

 

So

the self-realization and self-manifestation of Heaven is to become clear;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of Earth is to be tranquil;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of the valley is to be full;

the self-realization and self-manifestation spirits is to be effective;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of the myraid things is be thriving;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of ruler is to be pure and innocence (chaste)

 

Thus, by holding to the state of Wuji, this self-realization is manifest.

 

 

edit to add: the above is not meant as a translation

Edited August 4, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Edit: My rationale for interpreting "One" as Te comes from my background. In qigong circles, the highest level of sensible energy that people train for is actually called "One-Qi" or "Te" energy.

 

sounds like you're talking about "yuan-qi" or "pre-birth energy." No doubt this is intertwined with Te, and Wuji, imo..

Edited August 4, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

So

the self-realization and self-manifestation of Heaven is to become clear;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of Earth is to be tranquil;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of the valley is to be full;

the self-realization and self-manifestation spirits is to be effective;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of the myraid things is be thriving;

the self-realization and self-manifestation of ruler is to be pure and innocence (chaste)

 

edit to add: the above is not meant as a translation

Oh!, but it looks so pretty. Hehehe.

 

I like the concept/term "self-actualization".

 

(Hehehe. Yes, I know, my Buddhist friends wouldn't like that.)

[Marblehead]

I always like to differentiate between Tao and Te but I realize that more than anything else it is the fault of my dualistic mind. So I would agree that the Te of Tao cannot be separated from Tao. But when we talk about the "te" (virtue) of man we have a completely different story.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Oh!, but it looks so pretty. Hehehe.

 

I like the concept/term "self-actualization".

 

(Hehehe. Yes, I know, my Buddhist friends wouldn't like that.)

 

ha, yes I think that would save me some space at least! Though the precision of it might be less complete.. not sure personally...

[ChiDragon]

We should be careful here though. Remember, Tao gave birth to One.

 

Edit to add: Yes, I have also, in the past, equated the two as equal. But I think this might be an error.

 

Yes, the Unity is not the One. It was completely isolated in this case. The deductive reasoning must apply here.

 

 

Edited to add:

You must have noticed that the "wu" has multimeaning throughout the TTC, in the similar manner, used by Lao Tze.

Edited August 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I always like to differentiate between Tao and Te but I realize that more than anything else it is the fault of my dualistic mind. So I would agree that the Te of Tao cannot be separated from Tao. But when we talk about the "te" (virtue) of man we have a completely different story.

 

Good! Te is the final product from the cultivation of Tao. One must understand the principles of Tao in order to attain the Te(virtue) of Tao. I am glad that someone is able to differentiate the "Te of Tao" from the "Te of human".........

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Yes, the Unity is not the One. It was completely isolated in this case. The deductive reasoning must apply here.

 

 

Edited to add:

You must have noticed that the "wu" has multimeaning throughout the TTC, in the similar manner, used by Lao Tze.

 

I'll be posting a response to this in the TTC forum, chapter 39

[dawei]

I was looking at a number of translations of DDJ chapter 39 and seeing that everybody seems to be looking at yi 以 in the same way, though it doesn't seem to match up grammatically to translate it as they do.

 

For example, 天得一以清: Cleary has "heaven became clear by attaining unity"

Yin Lutang has "Through possession of the One, the Heaven was clarified"

 

However, the position of yi comes after "one/oneness" and before the final word, be it a noun or verb. I went through Pulleyblank's treatment of yi (pp. 47-50) and it only seems to confirm that these lines have been translated incorrectly.

 

It seems to me that they should appear as "the One was attained due to XYZ" rather than "XYZ was attained due to attainment of the One."

 

This is significant, I believe, since it shows how to attain this "Oneness."

 

Would it not be more correct to translate the following as:

 

 

 

天得一以清

Heaven attained the One by clarity

 

Taking one example above:

 

If one refers to the ancient cosmologies, then it is apparent that the order usually described is that as found in the Huainanzi:

 

That which was clear and bright formed into Heaven;

That which was heavy and impure formed into Earth.

It is easy for that which is clear and bright to uniformly gather [as the sky]

But difficult for the heavy and impure to solidify [as earth and matter].

 

Thus, it is clear and bright before it formed into Heaven. So it might be interesting to explore the passage in this order.

 

Added to say: Reading your translation again... I think that was your point; to explore it in that order

Edited August 5, 2013 by dawei

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Taking one example above:

 

If one refers to the ancient cosmologies, then it is apparent that the order usually described is that as found in the Huainanzi:

 

That which was clear and bright formed into Heaven;

That which was heavy and impure formed into Earth.

It is easy for that which is clear and bright to uniformly gather [as the sky]

But difficult for the heavy and impure to solidify [as earth and matter].

 

Thus, it is clear and bright before it formed into Heaven. So it might be interesting to explore the passage in this order.

 

Added to say: Reading your translation again... I think that was your point; to explore it in that order

 

 

Ha ha! It's true.. that (in the Huinanzi, and a different reading of yi,) clarity, tranquility, divine power, and fullness, would be implied to exist before Heaven, Earth, Spirits, and Valleys. Also growth, and purity and innocence existed before the innumerable things and 大丈夫 da zhangfu.

 

I also wonder if the modern predilection to reading yi as most do, was less automatic in Lao Tzu's day?

 

 

This also brings up the interesting question of the innumerable things, and aspects of the interactive dynamics between yin and yang which 生 gives/gave rise to them!!

 

 

道生一

Dao gave birth to One (Dao/Wuji)

一生二

One gave birth to Two (yin and yang)

二生三

Two gave birth to Three (Taiji dynamism)

三生萬物

Three gave birth to the innumerable things

[dawei]

Ha ha! It's true.. that (in the Huinanzi, and a different reading of yi,) clarity, tranquility, divine power, and fullness, would be implied to exist before Heaven, Earth, Spirits, and Valleys. Also growth, and purity and innocence existed before the innumerable things and 大丈夫 da zhangfu.

 

I also wonder if the modern predilection to reading yi as most do, was less automatic in Lao Tzu's day?

 

I think so.

 

This also brings up the interesting question of the innumerable things, and aspects of the interactive dynamics between yin and yang which 生 gives/gave rise to them!!

 

 

道生一

Dao gave birth to One (Dao/Wuji)

一生二

One gave birth to Two (yin and yang)

二生三

Two gave birth to Three (Taiji dynamism)

三生萬物

Three gave birth to the innumerable things

 

I'll let you chew on a comparison of cosmology sequences, but the way I tend to look at this section of ONE, TWO, THREE that LZ is speaking of only in regards to [the start of] the manifest world:

 

One = Qi (undifferentiated)

Two = Polarity; Clear / Muddy; Distinct /Indistinct; Yin / Yang

Three = The interaction of Singularity Energy (Qi) with it's arising polarity (Yin-Yang).

 

 

Compare Cosmology Sequences:

 

HengXian:

 

Hengxian (Nothingness) → Field (cosmos) → Qi (undifferentiated) → “Being” (Clear Qi=Heaven and Muddy QI=Earth) → “beginning” (Myriad Things) → “movement”.

 

 

Taiyi ShengShui:

 

Great One → Water → Heaven and Earth → Spirit and Light → Yin Yang → Four Seasons

 

Huainanzi:

 

Primal Illumination (boundless void) → Cosmos → Qi (undifferentiated) → Clear Qi=Heaven and Muddy QI=Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Myriad Things

 

Lushu Chunqiu

 

Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Myriad Things

 

 

The Book of Rites:

 

Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Ghosts and Spirits

 

Yijing (Mawangdui):

 

In Changes, there is DA HENG, which generates the Two Modes. The Two Modes generate the Four Images, and the Four Images generate the Eight Trigrams.”

 

 

Laozi:

 

The Dao engenders one, one engenders two, two engenders three

Edited August 5, 2013 by dawei

[Harmonious Emptiness]

If we go by the Huinanzi quote provided above, we might want to add Clarity, Fullness, Tranquility, and *Power to that cosmology as these qualitites seemed to have appeared somewhere between Great One 太一 Who Gave Rise to Water 生水 and, depending on the source, Heaven and Earth, the Cosmos, and Water.

 

 

This also makes me think of how the Flower Ornament Scripture/Avatamsaka shows these qualities as being manifestations of the Buddha in nature, communicating Dharma through the clouds and such.

 

 

*

(DDJ39 says that spirits essentially became effective by embracing the One)

[thetaoiseasy]

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Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[thetaoiseasy]

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Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Intellectually, the cosmology of the universe is hard to fathom, no matter how you look at it.

 

Not necessarily.. If you notice the rising and falling of water and vapour, it's pretty evident that some things go one way while others go another. Assume that at some point they were not polarized, and you've got "beginnings."

 

From there one can see the similarities from micro to macro and we have all sorts of understandings.

 

Not to say that I would have come up with Daoist sciences, but they are well based in things we all observe, especially if surrounded by mountains that look like they're growing into the sky.

[dawei]

If we go by the Huinanzi quote provided above, we might want to add Clarity, Fullness, Tranquility, and *Power to that cosmology as these qualitites seemed to have appeared somewhere between Great One 太一 Who Gave Rise to Water 生水 and, depending on the source, Heaven and Earth, the Cosmos, and Water.

 

I think you are on to something in regards to finding the compatibility between the explanations... but each cosmology I gave relies only on what their text stated. So that is why I gave the comparisons.

 

The role of "water" (Great One 太一 Who Gave Rise to Water 生水) has not really been explored enough and passed over too easily. Sarah Allen remains one of the few who I like to read on it. My personal feeling is that this water is more like mist, as in a translucent energy. Remember that the original character for Qi actually looks like clouds (mist).

 

I also personally think the Huainanzi may be the most accurate for a few reasons:

1. It adheres very close to the most ancient of these, the Hengxian

2. It has some time to develop the ideas beyond the far ancient thinking

3. The idea of a 'Primal Illumination' (my translation) is the wu-state counter-part to Qi... Nobody else arrived at such an idea.

 

(DDJ39 says that spirits essentially became effective by embracing the One)

 

I am losing track of your ideas as this seems opposite of what you started with:

 

This is significant, I believe, since it shows how to attain this "Oneness."

 

神得一以靈

Spirits attained the One by divine influence

 

 

Somewhere inbetween may be an idea like:

 

The spirit of 'attained One' is divine influence.

[dawei]

I want to throw in an alternative view here.

 

How did Lao Tzi make his discovery? Intellectually, the cosmology of the universe is hard to fathom, no matter how you look at it. Here's a possibility and my own experience. 0, 1, 2, and 3 are numbers that have significant energetic influence. They all pulse at certain points in the body and have distinct energetic qualities to them. If you want to understand Lao Tzi's words, one approach is to experience the cosmology energetically for yourself.

 

0 radiates at the middle of the forehead. It is an extremely spacious type of energy, what Buddhists might describe as the "emptiness"

1 radiates a little higher than the third eye. The quality of this qi is neither yin or yang, integrated but undifferentiated.

2 splits into two energies, the yang quality energy goes to the third eye and yin quality energy to the hui yin.

3 radiates at the chest, where yin and yang energies combine as Tai Ji.

 

I just wanted you to know that I read your response but just don't really have a response in keeping with the thread. I am looking at the ancient texts for additional understanding but your idea of looking at some experiential/energy support is as valid on some level.

 

I don't quite see the connect between what your saying and the counting as explaining what LZ means... but whether you want to share more here or as a separate thread, I will continue to read it.

 

I just mean: If nobody responded to your post then maybe you would just give up the thought but I would encourage you to share more, somewhere...