Riyue Posted August 6, 2013 Cosmology is speculation.Speculated Laozi about how world came into existence?I dont think so.I think Laozi observed - and Laozi reported about observations.Laozi observed that there is something which takes disorder to order (ddj25 line 1)Order that is "Being a ONE". - "A Having Identity"The 道 in Guodian-Laozi symbolizes "complementing" by 3 strokes below of head: one to left - one to right - one horizontal.-The sinograph 清 has the translation clear.But it informs about more.The 清 of Guodian-Laozi has "meandering water" at left - "life in balance" at right over speaking polarity... : complementing 以 has in Guodian-Laozi the form of a spiral....---and so on... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 6, 2013 Cosmology is speculation. Speculated Laozi about how world came into existence? I dont think so. I think Laozi observed - and Laozi reported about observations. Laozi observed that there is something which takes disorder to order (ddj25 line 1) I agree to a degree... There is speculation in cosmology and LZ has the least to say of most ancient texts. I agree he observed; he was a naturalist. But it is not simply about disorder to order; that is only one segment on the circle being described. Get off the merry-go-round and one sees the ebb and flow... it returns to disorder in the end... so was it about order? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) Cosmology is speculation. Speculated Laozi about how world came into existence? I dont think so. I think Laozi observed - and Laozi reported about observations. Laozi observed that there is something which takes disorder to order (ddj25 line 1) Order that is "Being a ONE". - "A Having Identity" The 道 in Guodian-Laozi symbolizes "complementing" by 3 strokes below of head: one to left - one to right - one horizontal. - The sinograph 清 has the translation clear. But it informs about more. The 清 of Guodian-Laozi has "meandering water" at left - "life in balance" at right over speaking polarity... : complementing 以 has in Guodian-Laozi the form of a spiral.... --- and so on... But it is not simply about disorder to order; that is only one segment on the circle being described. Get off the merry-go-round and one sees the ebb and flow... it returns to disorder in the end... so was it about order? A spiral is not a circle - just as step to the left, step to the right is not back and forth rocking. imo, of course Edited August 6, 2013 by rene Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riyue Posted August 6, 2013 I agree to a degree... There is speculation in cosmology and LZ has the least to say of most ancient texts. I agree he observed; he was a naturalist. But it is not simply about disorder to order; that is only one segment on the circle being described. Get off the merry-go-round and one sees the ebb and flow... it returns to disorder in the end... so was it about order? i think Laozi's interest was the way to order ... The way to disorder - he/she has seen everyday in those times... - instead destroying dualistic opposition he found how nature is able for complementing construction as a living body shows ... as each plant... da dao... you wu xiang sheng Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted August 7, 2013 I think you are on to something in regards to finding the compatibility between the explanations... but each cosmology I gave relies only on what their text stated. So that is why I gave the comparisons. The role of "water" (Great One 太一 Who Gave Rise to Water 生水) has not really been explored enough and passed over too easily. Sarah Allen remains one of the few who I like to read on it. My personal feeling is that this water is more like mist, as in a translucent energy. Remember that the original character for Qi actually looks like clouds (mist). I also personally think the Huainanzi may be the most accurate for a few reasons: 1. It adheres very close to the most ancient of these, the Hengxian 2. It has some time to develop the ideas beyond the far ancient thinking 3. The idea of a 'Primal Illumination' (my translation) is the wu-state counter-part to Qi... Nobody else arrived at such an idea. Yes it makes perfect sense to look at water for beginnings, since it is so important to all forms of life, and takes on various forms itself (ice, snow, water, mist, vapour, clouds). I am losing track of your ideas as this seems opposite of what you started with: This is significant, I believe, since it shows how to attain this "Oneness." 神得一以靈 Spirits attained the One by divine influence Somewhere inbetween may be an idea like: The spirit of 'attained One' is divine influence. right, the starred comment was a side note to show why I chose the word "power." For some reason I reversed the order again between appearances of a quality and the One when re-quoting the text. I'm back to my original conviction that yi was meant to say "because of." To clarify my earlier point about similarity to the Avatamsaka Sutra, here's a quote: "Everywhere [buddha] manifests clouds of mystic displays. Those clouds teaching throughout the world, Harmonizing and calming down all sentient beings. All this appears from the Buddha's palace." I feel like these are all getting at a similar origin, of a quality of wisdom (clarity, tranquility, etc.) preceding and influencing form. On the other hand, there is still the question (in my mind) as to whether the One in DDJ39 is Wuji, Dao, or both/either. After all, things can go back to the state of Wuji to be purified of the illusion of separateness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 7, 2013 A spiral is not a circle - just as step to the left, step to the right is not back and forth rocking. imo, of course True... but I did not see an argument for a spiral... unless you making one now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 7, 2013 i think Laozi's interest was the way to order ... The way to disorder - he/she has seen everyday in those times... - instead destroying dualistic opposition he found how nature is able for complementing construction as a living body shows ... as each plant... da dao... you wu xiang sheng While I see your point, I just think as long as we hold to one side of any aspect, we're missing the other side. There is a unity to chaos-order spectrum (circle or spiral)... I don't see this as necessarily dualistic opposites but just the whole. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 7, 2013 On the other hand, there is still the question (in my mind) as to whether the One in DDJ39 is Wuji, Dao, or both/either. After all, things can go back to the state of Wuji to be purified of the illusion of separateness. I see Wuji as a 'void-state' within the transformations of every possible phase, non-existent and existent; Dao is the mechanism for this transformation; the black box which makes it all go and transform and arise. The ONE contains all of it; no individual parts to speak of. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 7, 2013 Hi, While I agree with Riyue that the 'words' of Laozi primarily accentuate the way to order, what also comes through loud and clear (to me) is the reverting nature of 道, with both order & chaos integral aspects of the whole. To me - while the imagery of things coming 'full circle' is appealing and understandable to most - that every moment of equal creation and destruction is one that moves through time, the path scribed is spiral... cyclically reverting, yes, but not 'quite' to the same starting point. But that is tangential to your conversations about what is what and in what order... which have been quite enjoyable to read. (-: warm regards 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 7, 2013 I see Wuji as a 'void-state' within the transformations of every possible phase, non-existent and existent; Dao is the mechanism for this transformation; the black box which makes it all go and transform and arise. The ONE contains all of it; no individual parts to speak of. My picture is of 道 running like an energy rod down through the center of spirals, affecting and informing all aspects of the whole. Fun stuff to play with! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riyue Posted August 7, 2013 (edited) info by Riyue: yi3 as spiral: http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterImages/Bronze/B20000/b21200/b21210.gif Edited August 7, 2013 by Riyue Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 7, 2013 Yes it makes perfect sense to look at water for beginnings, since it is so important to all forms of life, and takes on various forms itself (ice, snow, water, mist, vapour, clouds). All life on Earth is water-based. Without water there would be no life. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted August 7, 2013 All life on Earth is water-based. Without water there would be no life. Water, chi, spirit energy.. makes one wonder what water has to say..... I see Wuji as a 'void-state' within the transformations of every possible phase, non-existent and existent; Dao is the mechanism for this transformation; the black box which makes it all go and transform and arise. The ONE contains all of it; no individual parts to speak of. the non-existent and the existent. Interesting.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 7, 2013 ... makes one wonder what water has to say..... Probably something like "Stop polluting me!" I am hearing more lately about places around the planet where the people are losing their potable water. I think that this will become a serious problem in the near future. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 8, 2013 My picture is of 道 running like an energy rod down through the center of spirals, affecting and informing all aspects of the whole. Fun stuff to play with! I see... since I don't see Dao as possessing energy itself, it may be more like the grid or matrix which connects all things and allows the energy to flow around the grid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 8, 2013 I like that, too. And I agree re dao not possessing energy itself... 'energy rod' was the only metaphor I could think of for the visual i had in mind. likely though, it neither runs through spirals nor is it grid or matrix... but rather just an aspect of everything, co-existing without form, permeating in that unboundaried way it does. words suck. images aren't far behind. but hey, it's fun to try. thanks for playing along. (-: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riyue Posted August 8, 2013 While I see your point, I just think as long as we hold to one side of any aspect, we're missing the other side. There is a unity to chaos-order spectrum (circle or spiral)... I don't see this as necessarily dualistic opposites but just the whole. Laozi knows about unity of chaos-order spectrum... nevertheless we find in ddj50: There is one good at preserving life... 蓋聞善攝生者 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 8, 2013 Laozi knows about unity of chaos-order spectrum... nevertheless we find in ddj50: There is one good at preserving life... 蓋聞善攝生者 I don't disagree with preservation or survival concept... but that also occurs through decay and chaos. One life form preserves by destroying another. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riyue Posted August 8, 2013 I don't disagree with preservation or survival concept... but that also occurs through decay and chaos. One life form preserves by destroying another. According to ddj 50 - for 9/10 people is that - what you are saying true. But how do you understand the solution of the 1/10 people? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 8, 2013 According to ddj 50 - for 9/10 people is that - what you are saying true. But how do you understand the solution of the 1/10 people? From the very beginning until now its name has never been forgotten. Thus I perceive the creation. How do I know the ways of creation? Because of this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) According to ddj 50 - for 9/10 people is that - what you are saying true. But how do you understand the solution of the 1/10 people? I tend to not interpret DDJ50 as fractions. We could discuss it in the DDJ50 area (can't remember if we got into it here but I've talked my point about this at another site). So I guess I can't really answer the question. Added; Looks like I did speak my mind on it at TTB: http://thetaobums.com/topic/19370-ttc-study-chapter-50-of-the-tao-teh-ching/ Edited August 9, 2013 by dawei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riyue Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) I tend to not interpret DDJ50 as fractions. We could discuss it in the DDJ50 area (can't remember if we got into it here but I've talked my point about this at another site). So I guess I can't really answer the question. Added; Looks like I did speak my mind on it at TTB: http://thetaobums.com/topic/19370-ttc-study-chapter-50-of-the-tao-teh-ching/ If you see it in the way you have elaborated at this link - then you have difficulties tot understand my point probably... --- yi as spiral: Wieger lection 85 gives some hints... Edited August 9, 2013 by Riyue Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riyue Posted August 9, 2013 From the very beginning until now its name has never been forgotten. Thus I perceive the creation. How do I know the ways of creation? Because of this. How does "creation" and "ziran" work together for you? warm regards w. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 9, 2013 How does "creation" and "ziran" work together for you? warm regards w. ziran is the way creation creates (-: 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riyue Posted August 11, 2013 ziran is the way creation creates (-: - thank you (-: -i like this: yi - as spiral - as the very point of nature's budding.... : ziran Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
