Taoist Afterlife

[innerspace_cadet]

I am somewhat new to Taoism, and I was wondering if there is a doctrine in Taoism about what happens after an individual dies. The reason I was always reluctant to call myself "Buddhist" is because of my skepticism regarding rebirth; sometimes it makes sense to me, at other times it seems entirely farfetched. On the website www.beliefnet.com it says that death has no particular meaning to Taoists. Is this true? After a person dies, does that person simply return to the Tao? Any replies would be much appreciated.

[hagar]

I am somewhat new to Taoism, and I was wondering if there is a doctrine in Taoism about what happens after an individual dies. The reason I was always reluctant to call myself "Buddhist" is because of my skepticism regarding rebirth; sometimes it makes sense to me, at other times it seems entirely farfetched. On the website www.beliefnet.com it says that death has no particular meaning to Taoists. Is this true? After a person dies, does that person simply return to the Tao? Any replies would be much appreciated.

 

I am by no respect a scholar of Taoism, and can only talk about what I myself have read and what my teacher has talked about in class. So here goes..

 

Taoism has no singular consensus on life after death, or even the significance and nature of it.

Religious Taoism, which is most popular among lay people in Asia does have certain explanations of an afterlife for humans. It is fused with the concept of ancestry, and a very complex system of spirit worlds, heavens and ghosts. Much of this is not to be taken literally, and most of it is actually not "believed" in as we westerners are used to. If you look into these aspects of Taoism, a whole realm of superstition, spirit whorship, ancestral debt and dieties will pop up. I think this "lay" form of Taoist culture is a dead end, more suited for native chinese culture than actual practitioners of Taoist arts.

 

Other aspects of Taoism that are more in line with what we, as practitioners, will face. This version, often called "philosophical Taoism" tries to set the whole issue of death in a wider perspective and attempts to put in in relation to how we live our lives in the present, and how we relate to our moment of death. What happens after death is not so important as how one lives properly. True attainment in classical texts like "Chuang Tzu" often points out that allowing oneself to return to the natural order of the universe is to be released from fear of death, which actually is a fear based on the fallacy that you are special.

Death is often described as a "bursting of a boil" or "return". What this means is that at the moment you realize your place in nature, the cosmos and detatch from unnatural desires, fears and attachements, the "meaning" of your life and death will become clear. And by "meaning" this path relates to the suspension of the whole issue of life and death. Adepts who practice taoist meditation from this perspective talk about meditation and life as a return. When you realize that your whole life is a return, or a yearning to return to the source, the whole issue of an afterlife relates to the extinction of the desire to be separate. When you realize that the moment of death is a return to where you belong, the fear of death and the hope of an afterlife diminish or dissapear. My master said that the adepts he knew who could call themselves "immortal" were people who could cross this border between life and death at will in deep meditation, thus being released from the causality of life and death, and attain insight into what death really is.

 

From my own practice of meditation, and taking retreats with my master, I think I get a little glimpse of what he talks about. In one particular sitting, I finally got to a point where I realized that death is really the culmination of your life. Death is a crossing where the compliation of different energies and information that is "me" transforms along with nature. It was more like feeling there is really nothing to "lose" and what happens after death is really not that important.

 

Then there's the whole issue of Taoist internal alchemy, and the issue of becoming a container of pure Yang, that is contained at the moment of death, but that is actually very difficult to express in words. Better find a realized teacher who can explain...

 

hope this was not completely confusing.

 

h

Edited May 2, 2007 by hagar

[thaddeus]

I am somewhat new to Taoism, and I was wondering if there is a doctrine in Taoism about what happens after an individual dies. The reason I was always reluctant to call myself "Buddhist" is because of my skepticism regarding rebirth; sometimes it makes sense to me, at other times it seems entirely farfetched. On the website www.beliefnet.com it says that death has no particular meaning to Taoists. Is this true? After a person dies, does that person simply return to the Tao? Any replies would be much appreciated.

Hagar gave you some nice answers. I think the basic idea is taoists do not 'believe' anything. If there is something to 'believe', then it's not taoist philosophy. btw, it's alot easier to say what it's not than what it is.

T

[Bob H]

Maybe this will be of interest:

 

"How do I know that loving life is not a delusion? How do I know that in hating death I am not like a man who, having left home in his youth, has forgotten the way back?"

 

-from Chapter 2 of Complete Works of Chuang Tzu, as translated by Burton Watson (1968 edition)

[Pietro]

I feel there is something to be added.

 

NOTE (aside): I find really interesting Thaddeus comment on taoist believes.

 

From more Taoist sources (Winn/Frantzis) I found that in Taoist Cosmology you don't get reborn, becouse you are not one thing. You are essentially a mesh up of differnet souls (shen), parts, and similar. So the first part for a taoist is to become one. This is not becoming enlightened. Or at least is not the highest level of enlightenment. But basically once you are one then you (can be?/are) reborn. For this a serious part in many taoist practices deals with this ssue of going from the many to the one. Winn speaks about the Fusion of the 5 shens. While Frantis while not speaking of a single practice to reach this aim, refers to this aim as: "the body of individuality". It is, according to Frantzis only once you have the body of individuality, that you "know who you are", that you can answer the question "who are you", get reborn, and start (in the water method/ his tradition) to do alchemy.

[MASTERforge]

Well put hager,

 

I wish I had that level of articulation

 

I have only experienced what you described fleetingly in meditation or tai chi and agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Wayfarer64]

Thank you all for those thoughts. They got me to think about this some more as well.

 

I hold a belief that each of us, as well as the other life forms in this universe, are made up of several types of components, or energies. We have our bodies that are each a shifting - ever changing mass of molecules put together into a magnificent "machine" that offers us a life form. Humans are very lucky and have amazing capasities that most other creatures do not. But those functions also distract us from the simpler systems that most animals enjoy...tho they are there for us to experience if we allow ourselves to get back in touch with that part of ouselves... that is being at one with the natural world, not just our human constructs...This is not to be confused with returning to "the Tao" as it were -but just returning to the more down to earth aspects of our potentials.

 

I also believe that we have a spiritual componant that has the capasity to go through many deaths and rebirths until it is fulfilled and then melds back into the Tao, from which it came.

There seem to be a huge number of levels of consciousness. Some of these are available only under extreme circumstances such as near death , intense meditation and other esoteric practices often mentioned on these threads...

 

After having experienced a few out of body events I can hold a belief that my consciousness is not dependent on my body. Some may argue that these experiences were halucenatory etc. I don't think that they were. So I believe that I will have a life after the death of this body. What that will be like, I do not know for sure. If it is half as interesting as this journey has been I can only look foreward to it with anticipation, and little to fear. I suspect it will be even more interesting and full of wonders beyond my ken at this time...

[mbanu]

From a philosophical standpoint, Taoism is somewhat indifferent about the afterlife. As the problem of the Tao encompasses both the living and dead, the ultimate goals remain the same, whether in life or in death. Religious Taoists have a sizable pantheon that blends into the traditional folk religions, and the immortals have their various dwellings on earth and elsewhere. The alchemists studied the question from more of a nuts and bolts view. I have heard one theory which might be considered a form of reincarnation, if only in form rather than spirit.

 

The idea is that there are two main "spirit" groups in the body, named the hun and p'o. These were not formed in the body, but entered the body at various times. They are not sentient. I've never heard anything of their true origin. The p'o, attracted by sexual energy, enter during conception, while the hun enter when the birthed baby takes its first breath. The hun and p'o interact with one another, producing a sort of conversation. This conversation is the heart shen. This shen is the root of personal consciousness. Some have speculated that the number of hun and p'o involved in the conversation explain the level of awareness in the being, and that plants and animals have a lesser amount.

 

When the hun and p'o in a body stop their "conversation" for whatever reason, the heart shen dissolves and "you" die. No afterlife, any more than a conversation continues on once both parties have stopped speaking. The hun wander off. The p'o linger around the corpse, but eventually go on their way as well. Certainly these hun and p'o will combine with others and have new "conversations", but even if the topic is the same, even if the number of parties are the same, even if it is the exact same spirits, the words will always be slightly different, and will create new heart shen.

Edited May 4, 2007 by mbanu

[Pietro]

From a philosophical standpoint, Taoism is somewhat indifferent about the afterlife. As the problem of the Tao encompasses both the living and dead, the ultimate goals remain the same, whether in life or in death.

...

 

The idea is that there are two main "spirit" groups in the body, named the hun and p'o. These were not formed in the body, but entered the body at various times. They are not sentient. I've never heard anything of their true origin. The p'o, attracted by sexual energy, enter during conception, while the hun enter when the birthed baby takes its first breath. The hun and p'o interact with one another, producing a sort of conversation. This conversation is the heart shen.

...

Certainly these hun and p'o will combine with others and have new "conversations", but even if the topic is the same, even if the number of parties are the same, even if it is the exact same spirits, the words will always be slightly different, and will create new heart shen.

 

How beautifully put mbanu, it really embraces the sensation of being a process, more than a thing. And the idea that the aim remains the same in life and death, I have heard it on and on from Bruce.

He would probably phrase it as:

the aim is the same wether you have a body or not

 

I wonder if this, not having a body, but having an aim only refers about people humans beings those who have reached the body of individuality. But then why is it that Bruce sais that as the baby boom generation will start to get older he will start to teach what practice to do once you do not have a body. He surely must not be planning to teach those only to those who have reached the body of individuality. for this would be a terrible business model. He would never manage to pay for 1/10th of the expenses.

[innerspace_cadet]

Thanks for all the informative responses. Perhaps I should view death as just another reality to be experienced, another transition to a different state of being. Sometimes I say to myself "I don't know what happens after death--I'll find out when I die." I still try to incorporate Buddhist teachings in my life, but I was always very skeptical of the notion of rebirth, even now, so I don't see it as necessary to give myself a religious label anymore. I find the Taoist indifference to what happens after death very appealing, because it allows me to focus more on this life.

[Neijia]

The seven po always reside in the body, specifically in the lungs... the three hun constantly come and go from their place in the liver. The po relating to the corporeal soul, and the hun to the ethereal.

[Ayudar]

[xenolith]

Answer to your question tomorrow.

[Spectrum]

Lots of Taoists only believe what they have experienced themselves.

 

For instance people who have OOBE's have a much different view of reality than people who never experience that, even living life differently as a result.

 

Check out : http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php

 

Many perspectives presented there on what could be considered "subjective" phenomenon that could be interpreted as multi-dimensional.

 

Spectrum

Edited May 12, 2007 by Spectrum

[Ayudar]

Lots of Taoists only believe what they have experienced themselves.

 

For instance people who have OOBE's have a much different view of reality than people who never experience that, even living life differently as a result.

 

Check out : http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php

 

Many perspectives presented there on what could be considered "subjective" phenomenon that could be interpreted as multi-dimensional.

 

Spectrum

 

Yes, I agree with you, which is why I said that one cannot possibly no all there is to this. I didn't mention OBE or NDE's, because i don't know how many members posting here are familiar with it experientially. But I am one of those individual who learned to do OBE at will after a NDE. There's so much to what consciounes is capable of doing and experiencing that nothing we say or do can put a fence around what really unlimited potential for the mind's conscious life force vibration. All concepts, even that of Taoism, have their limits or unlimited dimensions. How far one takes it depends simply on how far one's consciousness expands in one direction or another for the experiencer.

 

Ayudar

[Wayfarer64]

I am glad you've made it here Ayudar.

 

As we have spoken of... these events do change us and give us a profound perspective that also offers a soothing quality to lifes' many foibles. Once you've looked down at your own body but retain your sense of self, many things just seem to come into perspective as based in states of being other than our mundane existance.

 

When death holds little if any threat, all we can do is now work to be worthy of the life we have been given. Because no matter how reassuring an OOB experience is, having a consciousness in a body is just too wonderful to do anything but be thankful for our many blessings and try to remain focused on how best we can spend our hours...

[Ayudar]

I am glad you've made it here Ayudar.

 

As we have spoken of... these events do change us and give us a profound perspective that also offers a soothing quality to lifes' many foibles. Once you've looked down at your own body but retain your sense of self, many things just seem to come into perspective as based in states of being other than our mundane existance.

 

When death holds little if any threat, all we can do is now work to be worthy of the life we have been given. Because no matter how reassuring an OOB experience is, having a consciousness in a body is just too wonderful to do anything but be thankful for our many blessings and try to remain focused on how best we can spend our hours...

 

Well said.

 

Ayudar

[Yen Hui]

Edited May 15, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Yen Hui]

Edited May 14, 2007 by Yen Hui

[exorcist_1699]

Why worrying about afterlife eternity if taoists already can prove earthly immortality easily .

[Yen Hui]

Why worrying about afterlife eternity if taoists already can prove earthly immortality easily .

 

Well, maybe it has something to do with needing more than one life time to achieve immortality.

[exorcist_1699]

Or put it in another way : people who want to prove that there is afterlife eternity , please first prove that there is earthly immortality . Although taoists do not think that physical immortality is the highest form of eternity , they anyway do not underestimate its significance ( quite opposite to the Buddhist view ) .

 

If you can't prove to others that you can be free of death , then at least , after years of cultivation , you should be able to prove to others that you are free of illness , or free of aging...etc

 

Never in human history before , did you find a religion which emphasizes so strongly as Taoism on proof : not just the proof from your spiritual achievement ,which is always difficult to be observed or proved , but those biological or physical proof from your cultivation .

[fatherpaul]

HAHAHAHAHAafterlifeHAHAHAHAbeforelifeHAHAHAHAHA!