J Krishnamurti

[hotforest]

I was wondering what you guys' thoughts are on this incredible spiritual teacher. Why do you think he was so opposed to any suggestion of yoga and esoteric energy practice, only speaking about pure insight, pure action as the steps on the spiritual path. Yet surely he knew about kundalini and such and had experienced kundalini awakening as is suggested by his personal accounts of his experiences as well as that of others. Was it because he just had an extremely developed mind power or something? As Osho pointed out he suffered from a headache his whole life, lol. He didn't seem to think that something like qigong or yoga could make the slightest difference in the fate of humanity.

[thelerner]

J Krishnamurti always struck me as what a grumpy person would be like when they became enlightened. Why was he opposed to suggestions of yoga and esoteric energy practices? Don't know, maybe he clearly saw the target he/we were shooting for and felt any paths other then his own would miss it.

[Tom Lin]

I read his book "Awakening of Intelligence" and from what I received through his overall message is just that, any type of ritualistic practice is going against the path to enlightenment. Freedom through consciousness can only be achieved by walking the path so that mind, body and spirit are synthesized.

 

Qigong and Yoga are practices that have been handed down through generations, they are merely templates of other individuals interpretations of Spirituality. Since Spirituality coincides with creation then it is up to you to create your own template of your conscious reality.

[3bob]

religion/methods/practices generated from and maintained by enlightened spiritual truth is a blessing, if he couldn't see that then he was blind. (while proclaiming such blindness as vision as he practiced his particular methods)

Edited August 6, 2013 by 3bob

[Jadespear]

Because mostly Krishnamurti aimed "to set man free" as he claimed he would do when he disbanded his own religious sect- The order of the star.

 

I think Krishnamurti had a personal life that influenced his spiritual views a lot. When he was young his brother became ill and he was around a spiritual circle at the time, mostly theosophists, who had invisible master teachers who assured Krishnamurti that his brother would survive. He didn't, he died. Hence Krishnamurti loses all faith in anyone but himself.

 

I don't think he cared much about kundalini and qi gong because they are not things that can bring peace to the world just yet. He was a very public and influential figure aimed at breaking down how people thought about themselves and exposing the truth of human society and what it could be. He has extreme faith in his writings. He was interested more in realizing truth than he was in qi gong because that's just who he was.

[rene]

There is a difference, I think, between the actions and intentions of a 'do-gooder' - and one who unintentionally causes benefit to occur through natural actions.

 

That analogy ^^ reflects, imo, the essence of Krishnamurti's idea regarding organized religions/methods/practices.

 

Thanks for starting the thread, hotforest. (-: It's been a long time since I've heard Krishnamurti. Back in the pre-internet day, there was only the occasional broadcast on TV of his talks. I was tickled to now find them on YouTube.!

 

 

[idiot_stimpy]

J Krishnamurti always struck me as what a grumpy person would be like when they became enlightened. Why was he opposed to suggestions of yoga and esoteric energy practices? Don't know, maybe he clearly saw the target he/we were shooting for and felt any paths other then his own would miss it.

 

Are you confusing with U.G. Krishnamurti?

[3bob]

Rene,

 

Your analogy doesn't hold water for me in the sense that any real "Master" is full of unified and knowing intention, thus any unintended actions by those of a less than master state of being that turn out to be of benefit are more or less random, and can not be counted on or maintained.

[rene]

hi 3bob (-:

 

 

Rene,

 

Your analogy doesn't hold water for me in the sense that any real "Master" is full of unified and knowing intention, thus any unintended actions by those of a less than master state of being that turn out to be of benefit are more or less random, and can not be counted on or maintained.

 

Exactly my point!

 

"Real "Masters" have their own ideas about what is beneficial for others - and I gently leave them to it.

 

 

warm regards

[3bob]

Rene,

I did not imply (or mean to) that a master of "unified and knowing intention" is to be equated with an idealistically misled "do-gooder" that may or does bring about opposite results beyond their abilities or insight.

 

For instance in the TTC we have chapter 49 that speaks of actions that could only be fully carried out by someone of unified and knowing intention. (or with the wisdom and state of being to do so)

 

49.
THE Sage has no interests of his own,
But takes the interests of the people as his own.
He is kind to the kind;
He is also kind to the unkind:
For Virtue is kind.
He is faithful to the faithful;
He is also faithful to the unfaithful:
For Virtue is faithful.

In the midst of the world, the Sage is shy and
self-effacing.
For the sake of the world he keeps his heart in its
nebulous state.
All the people strain their ears and eyes:
The Sage only smiles like an amused infant.

[thelerner]

Are you confusing with U.G. Krishnamurti?

most observant. Yes, I was.

So J. was the gentle questioner. In some ways I see Eckhardt Tolle as a modern but slightly watered down successor.

[doc benway]

I think J Krishnamurti was a very sincere teacher with quite a bit of insight.

His tendency was toward the intellectual approach and he had a great deal of understanding.

Many spiritual searchers reach the insight that rituals and practices, while perhaps providing significant benefits, also have the effect of reinforcing the existence of the searcher and the search.

The truth is already always there, under the surface, waiting to be liberated.

The Zen masters teach this, the Dzogchen and Mahamudra masters teach this, the non-dualists teach this...

J Krishnamurti spoke to me very directly and significantly through his books and definitely helped me along the way.

Every guru tends to have their own unique "flavor", which I think is a reflection of their culture and conditioning, just as every religion and tradition does.

I think J Krishnamurti's work is worthy of serious study but it certainly doesn't resonate with everyone and if he's not your cup of tea, there are plenty of options.

Good luck!

Edited August 6, 2013 by steve

[3bob]

Yea Steve, I to appreciate some of the gems generated by Mr. K. but I will call it on him every time he discounts or trashes another system in off-handed ways which was an unfortunate habit of his.

[rene]

3bob, hi again

 

Rene,

I did not imply (or mean to) that a master of "unified and knowing intention" is to be equated with an idealistically misled "do-gooder" that may or does bring about opposite results beyond their abilities or insight.

 

For instance in the TTC we have chapter 49 that speaks of actions that could only be fully carried out by someone of unified and knowing intention. (or with the wisdom and state of being to do so)

 

That's an interesting idea about Ch49! If you'd like to explore that further, maybe we could meet over in the TTC section of the textual studies area.. so as to not disrupt the J Krishnamurti thread any more than we have. (-:

 

warm regards

[doc benway]

Yea Steve, I to appreciate some of the gems generated by Mr. K. but I will call it on him every time he discounts or trashes another system in off-handed ways which was an unfortunate habit of his.

I respect your comments, 3bob, and have no problem with anyone challenging any teacher or system, I think it's prudent and healthy and none are flawless. I ran into the question myself head first several years ago... At the time I was deeply involved in certain practices and had (have) enormous respect for my teacher and lineage. At the same time, I had a clear insight into the folly of rituals and practices just as Krishnamurti discusses. It took some time and contemplation but I eventually found reconciliation.

 

To the OP, if you haven't already, you may want to read about Krishnamurti and the Order of the Star in the East. He was selected by this organization to be a world philosophical leader, virtually a messianic figure. During his inauguration speech he pointed out his views on truth being "a pathless land" and disbanded the entire society. I wonder if some of the genesis of his position behind this came from his interaction with that society and its leadership.

 

My advice, FWIW, is that you not be too concerned with Krishnamurti's position on various practices. Like he says, don't accept authority, even his. If his philosophy speaks to you, by all means follow his ideas and recommendations for your own personal practice. I can tell you he was a profound inspiration to me and continues to be a valuable resource. If you encounter other practices and systems that speak to you, don't hesitate to try them and put them into play. Let your own results be your barometer. If and when you encounter such insights through your own practices regarding the value (or lack of) of rituals and methods, then you will need to work through the dilemma. That in and of itself was a very valuable learning experience for me.

 

One of my favorite quotes about this quandary comes from Peter Fenner who said something like: "if I didn't do what I didn't need to do, I wouldn't know that I didn't need to do it!"

Edited August 7, 2013 by steve

[3bob]

Hi Steve,

 

If you know some of those things about Mr. K. then I would tend to assume you also know of his earlier life and how he practiced various meditation methods and also to whatever degree was around or involved with so called "rituals" leading up to the period of his mystical vision(s) and related kundalini experiences, further these events in his life where never cast out by him as being false or of his imagination, something which he often pinned on others who had experiences in the same vein.

 

For instance:

"In 1922 he experienced a vision which would redirect the course of his life. It happened high in a mountain valley northwest of Los Angeles, named by the Native Americans "Ojai" or "The Nest." For two weeks, he had meditated constantly, envisioning the image of the Lord Maitreya before him. He then began to experience extreme pain in his neck and spine, and long periods of delirium. Day and night he struggled, unable to sleep or eat, often leaving his body, often seeing visionary happenings. On the third evening he was drawn from his small cottage to sit beneath a pepper tree alive with the fragrance of spring blossoms. What followed next was recorded in his own words:

"When I had sat thus for some time, I felt myself going out of my body, I saw myself sitting down with the delicate tender leaves of the tree over me. I was facing the east. In front of me was my body and over my head I saw the Star, bright and clear. Then I could feel the vibrations of the Lord Buddha; I beheld Lord Maitreya and Master KH. I was so happy, calm and at peace. I could still see my body and I was hovering near it. There was such profound calmness both in the air and within myself, the calmness of the bottom of a deep unfathomable lake.... The Presence of the mighty Beings was with me for some time and then They were gone. I was supremely happy, for I had seen. Nothing could ever be the same. I have drunk at the clear and pure waters at the source of the fountain of life and my thirst was appeased.... I have touched compassion which heals all sorrow and suffering; it is not for myself, but for the world. I have stood on the mountain top and gazed at the mighty Beings.... Love in all its glory has intoxicated my heart; my heart can never be closed. I have drunk at the fountain of Joy and eternal Beauty. I am God-intoxicated."

To Leadbeater he wrote: "I feel once again in touch with Lord Maitreya and the Master and there is nothing else for me to do but to serve Them. My whole life, now, is ... devoted to the work and I am not likely to change." And to Besant: "I feel as though I am sitting on a mountain top in adoration and that Lord Maitreya is close to me. I feel as though I am walking on delicate and perfumed air. The horizon of my life is clear and the sky-line is beautiful and precise."

 

"The process"

Another occurrence, connected with his spiritual change, was the phenomenon he always described as "the process". It had begun in the three painful days before his vision and would recur, in varying intensity, throughout his life. Extreme pain and out-of-body experiences would accompany its advent. In its early manifestation, K would sense a definite presence, like the Lord Maitreya who came one evening with this message:

"Learn to serve me, for along that path alone will you find me.
Forget yourself, for then only am I to be found.
Do not look for the Great Ones when they may be very near you.
You are like the blind man who seeks sunshine.
You are like the hungry man who is offered food and will not eat.
The happiness you seek is not far off; it lies in every common stone.
I am there if you will only see. I am the Helper if you will let Me help."

From this time in his life, all who knew him could sense his gathering power. From this point, he spoke from the heart, he spoke without fear, he seemed to speak from Truth itself.

 

The "overshadowing"

At a Star gathering in 1925 he began to speak of the World Teacher, saying: "He comes only to those who want, who desire, who long ..." As his listeners watched, his face suddenly brightened. His voice, now speaking in the first person, rang out with resonant power: "... and I come for those who want sympathy, who want happiness, who are longing to be released, who are longing to find happiness in all things. I come to reform and not to tear down, I come not to destroy but to build."

Most who saw the speech assumed the Lord Maitreya had fully entered the consciousness of K, and at this point K seemed to as well: "The memory of the 28th (the day of the gathering) should be to you as if you were guarding some precious jewel and every time you look at it you must feel a thrill. Then when He comes again, and I am sure that He will come again very soon, it will be for us a nobler and far more beautiful occasion than even last time. I feel like a crystal vase, a jar that has been cleaned and now anybody in the world can put a beautiful flower in it and that flower shall live in the vase and never die."

 

Theosophical reaction

Wide publicity was given to his assumed overshadowing. This, unfortunately, only served to exaggerate the existing imbalances in the Society. Some Theosophists were vying for position in the coming World Order, claiming impossible access to the highest levels of the spiritual world. Competition increased -- one disciple even claimed to have advanced three levels of initiation in three days. Public announcements were issued about the selection of 10 of the 12 "apostles" for the coming work. All of them were Theosophists. Sometimes amused and sometimes disheartened, K observed the tumult surrounding him. In speech after speech he tried to show his fellows a truer path -- a way of inward direction that refused to follow anything but the spark of God within the soul. Over time he began to downplay a personal relationship with the spiritual kingdom. Less and less did he speak of Maitreya or the Masters or any other entity. His expression became increasingly abstract, as though seeking to reach beyond the realm of the physical to touch the essential source of Being that animates all expression. "When I was a small boy I used to see Sri Krishna, with the flute, as he is pictured by the Hindus, because my mother was a devotee of Sri Krishna.... When I grew older and met with Bishop Leadbeater and the Theosophical Society, I began to see the Master KH -- again in the form which was put before me ... -- and hence the Master KH was to me the end. Later on, as I grew, I began to see the Lord Maitreya.... Now lately, it has been the Buddha whom I have been seeing, and it has been my delight and my glory to be with Him".

Edited August 8, 2013 by 3bob

[eye_of_the_storm]

Communist agent

-

Order of the Star in the East

Connection with Freemasonry?

 

The Order of the Eastern Star is a Freemasonry-related fraternal organization open to both men and women. It was established in 1850 by Boston, Massachusetts, lawyer and educator Rob Morris, a former Freemason official. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Eastern_Star

 

?

 

The Order of the Star in the East (OSE) was an organization established by the leadership of the Theosophical Society at Adyar, India, from 1911 to 1927. Its mission was to prepare the world for the expected arrival of a messianic entity, the so-called World Teacher or Maitreya. The precursor of the OSE was the Order of the Rising Sun (1910–11) and the successor was the Order of the Star (1927–29). The precursor organization was formed after leading Theosophists discovered a likely "vehicle" for the Messiah in the person of Jiddu Krishnamurti, an adolescent South Indian Brahmin. The founding of these organizations, as well as the disbanding of the OSE's successor in 1929 by Krishnamurti himself, led to crises in the Theosophical Society and to schisms in Theosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Star_in_the_East

 

 

Deuteronomy 7:6

Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Deuteronomy 7:6.

 

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Messianic / Abrahamic in nature

Seeking nothing less but total world domination... their Messiah is to subjugate/enslave all nations (peoples) ... Communism is one tool in achieving this (Capitalism is its twin).

 

 

The Six Principles of the Order of the Star in the East were:^[30]

1. We believe that a great Teacher will soon appear in the world, and we wish so to live now that we may be worthy to know Him when He comes.
2. We shall try, therefore, to keep Him in our minds always, and to do in His name, and therefore to the best of our ability, all the work which comes to us in our daily occupations.
3. As far as our ordinary duties allow, we shall endeavour to devote a portion of our time each day to some definite work which may help to prepare for His coming.
4. We shall seek to make Devotion, Steadfastness and Gentleness prominent characteristics of our daily life.
5. We shall try to begin and end each day with a short period devoted to the asking of His blessing upon all that we try to do for Him and in His name.
6. We regard it as our special duty to try to recognise and reverence greatness in whomsoever shown, and to strive to co-operate, as far as we can, with those whom we feel to be spiritually our superiors.
   
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Star_in_the_East

 

I'd advise against anything messianic...

Pursue paths that teach you to unfold/ develop your own potential

Edited August 8, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air