teknix Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) One example is standing behind your claims unless they are shown to be irrational or false, then disregard them if they aren't sound. The unsoundness of an argument can be sniffed out and pointed to by a keen mind. For instance; If you would show my conclusion to be unsound or erroneous, I would ditch it in favor of something more sound, rather than to make an excuse why it isn't sound and continue grasping onto the belief because I consider it mine or a part of me. . Losing something is gaining something. Edited August 9, 2013 by teknix 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teknix Posted August 9, 2013 I would lose a belief to gain a truth any day. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) Forcing someone to learn is definitely being agressive, not at all what I was talking about. Standing your ground against the oncomming tide is to what I refer. Often the tide is imaginary . We assume we smart, others foolish, and only our words stand between them and disaster. The reality is, it ain't so. Number one, we simply won't convince them (despite our passion and logic), we'll only start another fight. Two, the subject itself, is ridiculous, because 'it' is, or because it doesn't matter what we believe, we both have zero influence on the problem, yet argue passionately. I'm wise enough to realize this is the case 95% of the time, but foolish enough to argue anyway because there's enough asshole in me and fighting gives me something to do. As an experiment, Teknix, what were the last two heated 'arguments' you've had here? Edited August 9, 2013 by thelerner 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Songtsan Posted August 9, 2013 I don't see how you get that. I was talking about being assertive rather than aggressive or passive, in any life instance. Forcing someone to learn is definitely being agressive, not at all what I was talking about. Standing your ground against the oncomming tide is to what I refer. hmm...could be communication misunderstanding thingy...i was referring to ending up in a fight with those who feel confident in their ignorance. If you keep trying to educate them and they keep trying to educate you thinking that they are right (let's assume that you are the one that is really right, for sake of conversation), you will simply end up butting heads and making them angry at you....in that case sometimes it is better to stand in emptiness and wait for the opportune moment to arise to strike them where it will actually make a difference. Forgive me if I am still misconstruing your meaning - I am not very grounded at this time. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teknix Posted August 9, 2013 Often the tide is imaginary . We assume we smart, others foolish, and only our words stand between them and disaster. The reality is, it ain't so. Number one, we simply won't convince them (despite our passion and logic), we'll only start another fight. Two, the subject itself, is ridiculous, because 'it' is, or because it doesn't matter what we believe, we both have zero influence on the problem, yet argue passionately. I'm wise enough to realize this is the case 95% of the time, but foolish enough to argue anyway because there's enough asshole in me and fighting gives me something to do. As an experiment, Teknix, what were the last two heated 'arguments' you've had here? Rofl, you think of a debate as a fight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted August 9, 2013 I would lose a belief to gain a truth any day. Hmnn, we're talking about losing an argument to gain some peace, also losing an argument to lose some ego. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Songtsan Posted August 9, 2013 Rofl, you think of a debate as a fight. lol it is! A fight of illusionary selves trying to prove their illusionary stances. Nothing wrong with a fight at all IMO. Who wants to duel? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Songtsan Posted August 9, 2013 Hmnn, we're talking about losing an argument to gain some peace, also losing an argument to lose some ego. I would gladly GIVE my ego away! any takers? I will sell my ego to the devil - he can have it and everyone else's...we can keep our souls and have a big party till the death of dawn! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teknix Posted August 9, 2013 hmm...could be communication misunderstanding thingy...i was referring to ending up in a fight with those who feel confident in their ignorance. If you keep trying to educate them and they keep trying to educate you thinking that they are right (let's assume that you are the one that is really right, for sake of conversation), you will simply end up butting heads and making them angry at you....in that case sometimes it is better to stand in emptiness and wait for the opportune moment to arise to strike them where it will actually make a difference. Forgive me if I am still misconstruing your meaning - I am not very grounded at this time. I understand that you can't force someone to learn, just as you can't force someone to back up their claims, but I have no qualms against asking for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teknix Posted August 9, 2013 Hmnn, we're talking about losing an argument to gain some peace, also losing an argument to lose some ego. I guess you are . . . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Songtsan Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) I understand that you can't force someone to learn, just as you can't force someone to back up their claims, but I have no qualms against asking for it. me neither - as I said, if someone is willing to be ego-bashed, I will take up the bashing stick - we can each have one and have at it! I have learned recently though that bashing those that do not want to be bashed will simply make them hate you - they will run away and be confused, and then the co-learning will not occur for some time. Edited August 9, 2013 by Songtsan 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) Rofl, you think of a debate as a fight. I think a heated debate is an argument. A heated argument can devolve into a fight when it gets personal, innuendo's fly, inferences grow nasty and bad will is generated. I think debate is good. Its how we learn but I've been here long enough to see dozens of debates crash and burn into argument and fight territory. I'm beginning to learn to let go..earlier. Edited August 9, 2013 by thelerner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Songtsan Posted August 9, 2013 I think a heated debate is an argument. A heated argument can evolve into be a fight when it gets personal, innuendo's fly, inferences grow nasty and bad will is generated. I think debate is good. Its how we learn but I've been here long enough to see dozens of debates crash and burn into argument and fight territory. I'm beginning to learn to let go..earlier. The energy involved in all of those things though is miraculous and should be cultivated and never feared - use it! Put it to work! Great stuff...wise minds do great magic with it, lesser minds make a big (vain)glorious mess! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teknix Posted August 9, 2013 lol it is! A fight of illusionary selves trying to prove their illusionary stances. Nothing wrong with a fight at all IMO. Who wants to duel? I think it helps to provide insight into the rationale or belief being subscribed too and it helps to untangle inconsistencies and problems by laying it out to scrutinize. I long to lose, for only in losing is there something to gain. I won't let you win because the truth may lay unresolved. If there is an answer I want to find it, regardless of you or me. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Songtsan Posted August 9, 2013 I think it helps to provide insight into the rationale or belief being subscribed too and it helps to untangle inconsistencies and problems by laying it out to scrutinize. I long to lose, for only in losing is there something to gain. I won't let you win because the truth may lay unresolved. If there is an answer I want to find it, regardless of you or me. awesome! As Deci Belle says: people are always trying to defend their shitty scenes...my goal is to drop shitty scene after shitty scene until the best and most awesome everchanging scene arises.. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teknix Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) I like your insight, but that's still not me, eheheh. I took the contrary to what is presented to see how well it holds. Edited August 9, 2013 by teknix Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Songtsan Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) I like your insight, but that's still not me, eheheh. I took the contrary to what is presented to see how well it holds. we are what we are, and are we not all one, yet at the same time, not? How about this. If I gave you an orange and you were me, would you eat the orange, or give it back to your self? Edited August 9, 2013 by Songtsan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teknix Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) Nope! Would you? Edited August 9, 2013 by teknix Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Songtsan Posted August 9, 2013 Nope! Would you? The orange is going to become eaten no matter what. Either way, the orange dies! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted August 9, 2013 For most humble is a form of egotism, look at me I'm soooo humble aren't I wonderful Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted August 9, 2013 Maybe some tertiary institution could design a course in HUmility. I mean, there are all kinds of courses out there, so why not one on learning the ins and outs of the real meaning of humility. Then people can get an actual qualification, and put a title after their name.... Sam Jones, Humble. Or, Sarah Doe, Humbler (which is like a doctorate or something similar). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 9, 2013 from humble one up to the 10th degree. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted August 9, 2013 from humble one up to the 10th degree. On getting tot he 10th degree you could proclaim "I am the humblest!" and all would bow before you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted August 9, 2013 the ego does not understand the turning of the other cheek when done for real... but the eye of truth demonstrates it to the eye of truth that sees it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted August 9, 2013 On getting tot he 10th degree you could proclaim "I am the humblest!" and all would bow before you. Ya, like a professor of Humbling Science.. haha! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
