Marblehead Posted August 8, 2013 (edited) Chapter 1: Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease Section 1: Is azure the proper colour of the sky? Concepts discussed in Chapter 1, Section 1 are: Relativity of magnitudes, physical and moral http://oaks.nvg.org/zhuangzi1-.html (Link to James Legge's translation of Chuang Tzu, Chapter 1) Edited August 14, 2013 by Marblehead 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 8, 2013 (edited) Anyway....we can start here: Space infinite Chapter 1, Section 5Why does ZZ start to think everything is so big, so high and so far way.......??? What was he tried to convey.......??? Edited August 8, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted August 8, 2013 Isnt' he just making a straight forward embelished analogy for the spiritual gulf between the perspective of a sage , and that of peons? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 9, 2013 Why does ZZ start to think everything is so big, so high and so far way.......??? What was he tried to convey.......??? I think he is pointing at matters of perspective. Basically building on the story of the P'eng and the quail. We don't hear anything from the P'eng but the quail let's its thoughts be known - its personal perspective, and wonders why anything would need a greater expanse of space than it does. Differences between big and small are matters of perspective. And this applies to the Section 5 story as well - the dirrerence between a mortal man and a spirit-man. The mortal is fixed to his immediate environment and pretty much controlled by it whereas the spirit-man is beyond the worries of the physical realm. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 9, 2013 Isnt' he just making a straight forward embelished analogy for the spiritual gulf between the perspective of a sage , and that of peons? Yes. As the saying from the 1960's goes: Different strokes for different folks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 9, 2013 So, anyway, it is my personal opinion that there are only two important concepts in this chapter that should be considered: 1. The relativity of all things. 2. The useful/uselessness of things. (Includes the usefulness of being useless.) We will see these two concepts again and again throughout The Chuang Tzu. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 9, 2013 I had a thought about the P'eng and the Quail. I think he is also talking about paradigms and perspectives. The quail cannot even conceive of the view the P'eng experiences. It is so far outside of its mental range that it seems absurd. We experience that all the time. If we dont believe something, its stupid, or silly or it does not exist. In the story, I feel like he is showing how that is a faulty attitude. We get stuck as the quail, never seeing the entire horizon that the P'eng sees. Also if something is SO far outside of what we choose to know, then it might even be so difficult for us to experience it, that it seems impossible. A closed mind or an expansive open mind... Peace. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 9, 2013 So, anyway, it is my personal opinion that there are only two important concepts in this chapter that should be considered: 1. The relativity of all things. 2. The useful/uselessness of things. (Includes the usefulness of being useless.) We will see these two concepts again and again throughout The Chuang Tzu. Sounds about right. (-: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 9, 2013 So, anyway, it is my personal opinion that there are only two important concepts in this chapter that should be considered: 1. The relativity of all things. 2. The useful/uselessness of things. (Includes the usefulness of being useless.) We will see these two concepts again and again throughout The Chuang Tzu. The relativity of all things was the authenticity in Chapter Two of the TTC, Why do you think ZZ want to repeat it again....??? Don't you think he was using it to illustrate something else....??? What do you think about Uroboros's post.....??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) The relativity of all things was the authenticity in Chapter Two of the TTC, Why do you think ZZ want to repeat it again....??? Don't you think he was using it to illustrate something else....??? What do you think about Uroboros's post.....??? dang it CD settle down and slow down. maybe let a few more folks jump in with their ideas before we start comparing LZ to this. There's a lot to say regarding your most excellent questions...but timing is everything, yes? Keep cool and stay mindful. And Uroboros post is just fine. Edited August 9, 2013 by rene 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 9, 2013 hehehe............we all can speak and ask but we can wait also.......!!! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gypsy Posted August 9, 2013 So, anyway, it is my personal opinion that there are only two important concepts in this chapter that should be considered: 1. The relativity of all things. 2. The useful/uselessness of things. (Includes the usefulness of being useless.) We will see these two concepts again and again throughout The Chuang Tzu. An Elementary System within Style!! Life is so intelligent~Now what?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 9, 2013 Rene- Thanks? Im not sure what you meant by- uroboros post is just fine. If im not understanding and penetrating the chapters, I definitely want to know! hah! Peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 9, 2013 Rene- Thanks? Im not sure what you meant by- uroboros post is just fine. If im not understanding and penetrating the chapters, I definitely want to know! hah! Peace. Uroboros, hi (-: What I meant is that it seems you've indeed understood the points of the concepts ChuangTzu was trying to convey! I was just trying to slow CD down a little bit. All is well. warm regards 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 9, 2013 I think he is also talking about paradigms and perspectives. Good that you mentioned this. We do need to include in our understanding of 'the relativity of things' the concept of perspectives. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 9, 2013 The relativity of all things was the authenticity in Chapter Two of the TTC, Why do you think ZZ want to repeat it again....??? Don't you think he was using it to illustrate something else....??? What do you think about Uroboros's post.....??? I like the post. I clicked that I like it. No, I think he was using it for the purpose I suggested. But I am open for additional views. Remember, I can state only my opinons and understandings. I can't state your. But you can. I would love to see/hear additional thought beside just my own. Give it a shot and see what happens. I think that Chuang Tzu is trying to repeat most of what Lao Tzu said in order to revitalize Taoism as well as to counter the growing popularity of Confucianism. The vast majority of the Chuang Tzu is just a rehashing of the concepts we now find in the Tao Te Ching. But he adds his own special mysticism when really, IMO, adds much sugar and spice to the original. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 9, 2013 An Elementary System within Style!! Life is so intelligent~Now what?? Now what? Well, after we finish chapter 33 we could try living for a while. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 9, 2013 Rene- OHH! Ok, I gotcha. Hah, I wanted to make sure. I want to understand these writings. I would rather not continue thinking I was right when I was wrong. Well, shucks! Thank you! Im glad I have made some progress in understanding the Chuang Tzu. Ah, Yes. We must go slow. Newbies like me need to build the solid foundation. Marblehead- Glad you liked my thought bubbles! The TaoTeJing can be hard to penetrate, since its not using stories so much as poems. It seems that Chuang Tzu wanted to give another way to express the principles. To help people. I can see how the problem of Taoism becoming...different would be a problem. Moving away from its root. Less people actually understanding/ cultivating. If its just a rehashing, all the better! Another way for us to penetrate the core, root principles!! This is fun, I feel, Marblehead. Lets keep going! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) Rene- OHH! Ok, I gotcha. Hah, I wanted to make sure. I want to understand these writings. I would rather not continue thinking I was right when I was wrong. Uroboros.... Please continue thinking that you are right. So far, your interpretation is most accurate and on the right track. Keep your own thoughts if you think you are right and don't get distracted by anyone. When for my post, then, you will realize how correct you are if I get an OK form rene....... Edited August 9, 2013 by ChiDragon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 9, 2013 I really like the little story of the useless tree. Because it was useless for any other purpose except to be what is was - a tree - it has not been used, misused, or abused for any other purpose. Therefore it will be allotted all the time available to be all that it can be. I have been trying to live like that in the most part from the first time I read Chuang Tzu and this little story (and the other supporting stories). I am getting pretty good at being useless in my "real" life. I have a couple good friends and everyone else leaves me alone because I am useless for them. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 9, 2013 ChiDragon- Thank you for the pointer. I would rather look at it from the stand point that I dont know it all then assume I have penetrated the wisdom of this text. Distractions...I dont consider various view points to be distractions. I consider them opportunities to expand my mind, look at it from different angles and see if I can grow. Peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 9, 2013 sigh.. CD that's not what i meant... i sent you a pm earlier. Go read it maybe? (sorry for interruption, MH) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 9, 2013 Marblehead- I enjoyed that story, too! It had no use to others and so it was able to become its fullest expression. It is interesting...when you spend less time trying to be useful to others and spend more time cultivating your self....magical things can happen. On the flip side, we may have to change how we interact with others. Instead of looking at things and people from the standpoint of, what use are they to me? We look at their potential and what they are.... Just see what they are, without adding on to them. OH, since Yin/ Yang is a foundation, then with the Quail and the Peng, it goes both ways. The quail can not understand the peng. The peng can not understand the quail, either. One is too large to see the beauty of the flowers and the other is too small to see the majesty of the mountain tops... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 9, 2013 I really like the little story of the useless tree. Because it was useless for any other purpose except to be what is was - a tree - it has not been used, misused, or abused for any other purpose. Therefore it will be allotted all the time available to be all that it can be. I have been trying to live like that in the most part from the first time I read Chuang Tzu and this little story (and the other supporting stories). I am getting pretty good at being useless in my "real" life. I have a couple good friends and everyone else leaves me alone because I am useless for them. There's a lot to be said for that. (-: Without being pulled (harvested) in different directions, we've the time to focus on what is really important. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 9, 2013 I agree, Rene! Its a wonderful thing to be considered unimportant....Interesting how many tales of sages and such are thought by most to be beggars or unimportant.... Also changes how our ego exists. It wants to be important! If that part is dropped, what does it do? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
