Marblehead Posted August 11, 2013 I think the important thing right now (and always) is to not read anything into what he says. Each cahpter build on his thoughts. He was very good at experssing his thoughts with examples, both fiction and non-fiction. This first chapter is all fiction. Understand the concepts. That is all. (He actually does say in a later chapter that once the concepts have been grasped the words can be forgotten.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 11, 2013 CD- Ahh, thats good to know! A mistranslation, eh. Which translation is more accurately translated, then? Immortals...Humans....I hope they go into what the differences are later. Marblehead- Ohh, real people! I want to be a real boy! hehe. Hmm...so just read what is written and try and grasp the concepts...without inferring anything more. Gotcha. So, then, they have talked about duality, relativity...perceptions. Good stuff. The concepts do transfer well to many situations...words are limited. Peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 11, 2013 Marblehead- Ohh, real people! I want to be a real boy! hehe. Hmm...so just read what is written and try and grasp the concepts...without inferring anything more. Gotcha. Yeah, but I don't want to make it sound too simple. The stories are very important because Chuang Tzu don't, in the most part, state the concepts he talks about. He left it to us to do most of the work. I was as boy once. Being growed up is more fun. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 11, 2013 Marblehead- Oh, im sure its not easy. Otherwise everyone would know about it! You have to read the stories and open your mind to perceive the wisdom within it, eh. Oh yes. Being "grown up" is way more fun. I was making a pinnochio reference, though..... Peace. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted August 12, 2013 Is it time for chapter 2? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 12, 2013 CD- Ahh, thats good to know! A mistranslation, eh. Which translation is more accurately translated, then? It is very difficult to translate the parables. A wrong choice of words will twist the meaning around causing misinterpretation of the metaphors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 It is very difficult to translate the parables. A wrong choice of words will twist the meaning around causing misinterpretation of the metaphors. Since you have none other to offer (and even if you did) perhaps it's better that we stay with the one linked to the beginning of these Concepts studies, n'est-ce pas ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) As you wish, if it is possible....!!! I have already made my point. Edited August 12, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) As you wish, if it is possible....!!! Did this link (from the first page) not work for you? http://oaks.nvg.org/zhuangzi1-.html (Link to James Legge's translation of Chuang Tzu, Chapter 1) ***** Edit: Okay. Your first post before editing suggested the link didn't work. I realize now the link works fine for you, it's just the translation you don't like. Edited August 12, 2013 by rene Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 12, 2013 Unfortunately, yes......!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 12, 2013 Is it time for chapter 2? Almost. I got involved in starting a new project here at home that has been consuming my time and thoughts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 12, 2013 Unfortunately, yes......!!! Well, get over it and stop holding so tightly to your attachments. Hehehe. Once the chapter study is fulfilled I see no problem with presenting and discussing alternate translations of individul stories within the chapter being discussed for a possible alternate view of a concept that was presented by Giles and Legge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) It is very difficult to translate the parables. A wrong choice of words will twist the meaning around causing misinterpretation of the metaphors. Zhuang Tze likes to exaggerate by thinking himself as a gigantic fish. Was this the thing you feel is the important thing to understand ? Or this,, , Zhuang Tze was suggesting that one must get oneself educated Either view seems fine with the other interps. I dont see why one has to cling to one and one only interp. As Mh said .. MH will allow us to view something from a different angle and it might just be a piece we were missing. Edited August 12, 2013 by Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 12, 2013 Translation is different from interpretation. Interpretation may not be done correctly with a mistranslation. I grant you the first chapter is pretty straight forward but the later chapters are more difficult to deal with two different translations.Translation are not translating concepts but verbatim. Then the interpretation comes after. Do you see what I mean......?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 Translation is different from interpretation. Interpretation may not be done correctly with a mistranslation. I grant you the first chapter is pretty straight forward but the later chapters are more difficult to deal with two different translations. Translation are not translating concepts but verbatim. Then the interpretation comes after. Do you see what I mean......?? Yep, we do, and we appreciate your input and patience. When the later chapters come, maybe you could show us the difficulties then. Thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted August 12, 2013 Translation is different from interpretation. Interpretation may not be done correctly with a mistranslation. I grant you the first chapter is pretty straight forward but the later chapters are more difficult to deal with two different translations. Translation are not translating concepts but verbatim. Then the interpretation comes after. Do you see what I mean......?? I think I do, which is why I chose the word interpretation . I figure you are probably perfectly correct on the word translations. ( although I cant independently verify that , I just am willing to take your word for it , its your thing ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 12, 2013 Yep, we do, and we appreciate your input and patience. When the later chapters come, maybe you could show us the difficulties then. Thanks! I was afraid of that, why should I make it so easy for MH....??? He never does anything easy for me....... I think I do, which is why I chose the word interpretation . I figure you are probably perfectly correct on the word translations. ( although I cant independently verify that , I just am willing to take your word for it , its your thing ) Thank you...!!! I will try my best.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 12, 2013 I was afraid of that, why should I make it so easy for MH....??? He never does anything easy for me....... Oh, No!!! You figured me out! Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 12, 2013 With Zhuang Tze's vast wisdom, would you think that his only locality is the Universe....??? That's not what I mean by non-locality. Non-locality is something that is discussed in modern physics and often applied with respect to the nature of consciousness or awareness. It first came to the attention of physicists and mathematicians with the advent of quantum mechanics and one of the classical experiments that demonstrates the effect is called Bell's Theorem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) Translation is different from interpretation. Interpretation may not be done correctly with a mistranslation. I grant you the first chapter is pretty straight forward but the later chapters are more difficult to deal with two different translations. Translation are not translating concepts but verbatim. Then the interpretation comes after. Do you see what I mean......?? The problem with translation from Chinese Hanzi to English is that the very act of translation often requires interpretation. Hanzi often communicate at multiple levels to the native Chinese reader so that it could take phrases or sentences to give someone the possible meanings of a single character. Context becomes extremely important, much more so than in English and context generally implies interpretation. My Chinese reading is very rudimentary but I've done translations for my Shifu and found it extremely difficult and often impossible to do translations verbatim. Edited August 12, 2013 by steve 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 12, 2013 Yes, I agree. The interpretation was done ahead mentally and the translation comes later. Hopefully the translation matches the interpretation so it won't get lost in the process. Also, I agree it is difficult to do it verbatim but just hope to get to the closest. This something just cannot be expressed in words but we can only try to do the best we can. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 12, 2013 Yes, I agree. The interpretation was done ahead mentally and the translation comes later. Hopefully the translation matches the interpretation so it won't get lost in the process. Also, I agree it is difficult to do it verbatim but just hope to get to the closest. This something just cannot be expressed in words but we can only try to do the best we can. One way I find very helpful in approaching the meaning behind the words is to read multiple translations and compare. This way, we have some idea of the spectrum of different possible meanings. This was very helpful for me in the (limited) study of Nei Yeh and Dao De Jing I've done. It's tougher in Zhuangzi because he's so darn wordy! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted August 12, 2013 One way I find very helpful in approaching the meaning behind the words is to read multiple translations and compare. This way, we have some idea of the spectrum of different possible meanings. This was very helpful for me in the (limited) study of Nei Yeh and Dao De Jing I've done. It's tougher in Zhuangzi because he's so darn wordy! Hi Steve, I appreciate what you've said so far. It's good to have you back. Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 12, 2013 Hi Steve, I appreciate what you've said so far. It's good to have you back. Aaron Thanks Aaron - I've missed you too! Hoping that you are well... Best regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 12, 2013 It's tougher in Zhuangzi because he's so darn wordy! Hehehe. You picked up on that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
