Chapter 1, Section 1 Concepts

[Marblehead]

Right. "Don't do this" works better for a lot of peoples' stories. That's my point. You gonna go with 'what works better for my story' in this exploration? That's okay, it's the same thing ZZ did. It's just good to know upfront whats what. (-:

Hey, if it works and you get the results you wanted then you must have done it "your" right way.

 

But let's be fair. Chuang Tzu did actually quote Lao Tzu pretty much word for word a number of times.

 

Are you done with Ch1 already after just 24hrs since starting? Is this going to be a chapter every two days project? Maybe CD or somebody else would like to say something?

Well, I'm actually hoping that there will be others with input by tomorrow morning so that we can address any additional comments.

 

Yes, it would be nice if Chidragon would join in with a comment or two. (Not too many though, Chidragon. Hehehe. I know how you are when you get fired up.)

 

I'm still waiting for Zerostao and Steve and a few others who indicated they were interested in a Chuang Tzu study.

 

But bottom line, the flow of the chapters will be determined by how much input we get to each individual chapter. I wouldn't want to start a new chapter if there are still good discussions going on with the current one.

 

Edit to add Apech's name to the two above as well.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

As it should be, and deem it thou . To sleep and sleep unheeded the morning rushes on. What azure skies or misty veils present the morrow? Unknown and fresh twill be revealed So patient we retire.

Yeah, it will soon be time to turn the pond pumps back on, eat supper and get tired enough to go to bed while watching TV. (I can't get tired if I stay on the computer.)

[rene]

Oh my -

But let's be fair. Chuang Tzu did actually quote Lao Tzu pretty much word for word a number of times.

A number of times??

Show me one.

Here or PM or email.

At your convenience... but within six months.

 

****

 

edit: I'll hush now about LZ, so to not interrupt the ch 1 discussions.

Edited August 9, 2013 by rene

[ChiDragon]

Yes, it would be nice if Chidragon would join in with a comment or two. (Not too many though, Chidragon. Hehehe. I know how you are when you get fired up.)

 

Hehehehe......

Have you noticed that I have a new signature..........???

[Marblehead]

Hehehehe......

Have you noticed that I have a new signature..........???

Nope. I hadn't notice. But I see it now. Fitting against what I just said about you. Hehehe. But not too silently, Okay?

[Marblehead]

Oh my -

 

 

A number of times??

 

Show me one.

 

Here or PM or email.

 

At your convenience... but within six months.

 

edit: I'll hush now about LZ, so to not interrupt the ch 1 discussions.

Oh, I will be sure to point out for you and all others the first one we come to while studying the chapters.

 

But if that doesn't happen within a few days I'm sure you will remind me. Hehehe.

[rene]

Oh, I will be sure to point out for you and all others the first one we come to while studying the chapters.

 

But if that doesn't happen within a few days I'm sure you will remind me. Hehehe.

 

 

Ah jeeze. Now I gotta stick around.

 

(and yes, I will remind you)

[ChiDragon]

I was re-reading this -

1: Is azure the proper colour of the sky?

IN THE Northern Ocean there is a fish, the name of which is Kun [1], – I do not know how many li [1 li = ca. 500 m] in size. It changes into a bird with the name of Peng, the back of which is (also) – I do not know how many li in extent. When this bird rouses itself and flies, its wings are like clouds all round the sky. When the sea is moved (so as to bear it along), it prepares to remove to the Southern Ocean [darkness]. The Southern Ocean is the Lake of Heaven.

There is the (book called) The Universal Harmony [2], – a record of marvels. We have in it these words: 'When the Peng journeys to the Southern Ocean it flaps (its wings) on the water for 3000 li. Then it ascends on a whirlwind 90,000 li, and it rests only at the end of six months.' (But similar to this is the movement of the breezes which we call) the horses of the fields, of the dust (which quivers in the sunbeams), and of living things as they are blown against one another by the air [3]. Is its azure the proper colour of the sky? Or is it occasioned by its distance and illimitable extent? If one were looking down (from above), the very same appearance would just meet his view.

 

Are they speaking of how the large affects the small?

 

How the wind of the Peng flying ripples out and affects all the myriad things in its wake?

 

If so, is that talking about a cosmogenesis or cultivation?

 

Maybe its saying that a person who is highly cultivated, when they move, they are capable of sending ripples into the world with their being.

 

Hmm....Dunno. Must ponder more.

 

What do you fine people think?

 

Zhuang Tze likes to exaggerate by thinking himself as a gigantic fish. A big fish should not get stuck under water in the Northern Ocean without or some limited knowledge. In order to broaden his wisdom, he wants to turn into a gigantic bird. So, he can fly high high above and look down on earth to see things in a wider view. However, that was not all, by looking at one side of the world was not enough. He must travel far away to go to the other side(Southern Ocean) to broaden one's wisdom.

 

In Chapter One, metaphorically, Zhuang Tze was suggesting that one must get oneself educated. One's narrow view should be broaden to have a wider vision. One must get on top and get to the bottom of the matter and see the whole picture. Furthermore, one mustn't blind oneself by just looking at one side of the story. One must step over to the other side, with an open mind, to listen to the opposing view. Thus it would be wise for an intelligent person to take all matters into consideration prior reaching a final conclusion.

 

PS.....

The difference in approach: Zhuang Tze's approach was to let one experience the experience; and Lao Tze tells one his experience.

Edited August 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Zhuang Tze likes to exaggerate ...

Actually, he loves to exaggerate. Hehehe. (When I first read him he reminded me of the Greek Mythology I read when in my teens.)

 

Good comments.

[doc benway]

Great comments on this first chapter.

I don't think I have much to add but here a few random observations.

 

The other message I seem to be getting is one of acceptance of one's own station and acceptance of that of others.

Each of us has the opportunity to live to our fullest potential and yet (to paraphrase Einstein) you can't judge a fish by asking it to climb a tree. And to those Daoists in his day practicing the whole host of methods for prolonging life, could he be questioning all of that?

 

And the extremes of scale also imply that these concepts are pervasive.

 

I'll even put it out there that the extreme scale of the Kun and Peng combined with water and air give me a sense of non-locality.

[Marblehead]

Hi Steve,

 

Thanks for joining in.

 

Very nice observations as well.

 

Yes, understanding the relativity of things and accepting our own relative position in the scheme of things. And sure, accepting the station others as well.

 

We will see more regarding your "prolonging life" in later chapters.

[rene]

And to those Daoists in his day practicing the whole host of methods for prolonging life, could he be questioning all of that?

 

That's a great question. Marblehead? Anyone? Does ZZ question those things? Some of us aren't familiar with ZZ enough to know things like this and rely on your thoughts about questions asked...

 

Thanks!

[Stosh]

I hope he said it was silly BS

[ChiDragon]

That's a great question. Marblehead? Anyone? Does ZZ question those things? Some of us aren't familiar with ZZ enough to know things like this and rely on your thoughts about questions asked...

 

Thanks!

 

What are those specific things that are in question or being silly BS......??? Please advise........!!!

Edited August 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

Prolongation of life by cowardice, or by miraculous escape. The desire or fear are both non acceptance of the inevitable imo, the persona we inhabit and think we are is but a transient thing , an illusion

. To believe the truth is other than that defeats all the wisdom the ancients tried to explain. It would represent a capitulation, a palatable lie , and shameful self betrayal of their integrity. I don't want to read they were so disingenuous. Let all else kid themselves and suffer the illusions , that they lived and can die. That they can succeed or fail . That they and their lives could be found wanting .

The understanding , the deliverance , which they tried to bestow .. is completely undermined if one retains the idea that they can cheat the reaper.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

How about given it to me in plain English............???

Edited August 11, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

Um..pretending people can live forever if they sit and stare at their eyelids long enough would represent a sellout imo

[ChiDragon]

hmmmmm.....ok.........

[Uroboros]

It sounds like so far, he is opening questions and laying the foundation for larger, piercing questions...

 

In one part he speaks of Master Lieh who rides the wind and about one who mounts the ether of heaven and earth, the 6 elemental energies of the seasons.

 

In that section there is some talk of sages and one who waits upon nothing.

 

Not sure if by wait he means actual manifestations or death.

 

So far, I dont see him out right challenging the practices of prolonging life.

 

He has challenged many judgements and perceptions.

 

Actually, he may have put a slight jab at those who feel they are enlightened without finding their root....Its subtle.

[ChiDragon]

 

I'll even put it out there that the extreme scale of the Kun and Peng combined with water and air give me a sense of non-locality.

 

With Zhuang Tze's vast wisdom, would you think that his only locality is the Universe....???

[ChiDragon]

It sounds like so far, he is opening questions and laying the foundation for larger, piercing questions...

 

In one part he speaks of Master Lieh who rides the wind and about one who mounts the ether of heaven and earth, the 6 elemental energies of the seasons.

 

In that section there is some talk of sages and one who waits upon nothing.

 

Not sure if by wait he means actual manifestations or death.

 

So far, I dont see him out right challenging the practices of prolonging life.

 

He has challenged many judgements and perceptions.

 

Actually, he may have put a slight jab at those who feel they are enlightened without finding their root....Its subtle.

 

Actually, there was no talking about the sage in waiting. It was a mistranslation on the translator's part. What Zhuang Tze was referring to was that only immortals can deal with Nature directly other than humans. He was saying that humans has to deal with earth by cooking and eating what it provides. Where as the immortals do not have do what the humans do. You are right, he did not advocate the practice of prolonging life in the chapter.

[Marblehead]

That's a great question. Marblehead? Anyone? Does ZZ question those things? Some of us aren't familiar with ZZ enough to know things like this and rely on your thoughts about questions asked...

 

Thanks!

I wanted to speak to this but it is discussed in other chapters so I felt it best to not speak to it at this point.

[Marblehead]

I hope he said it was silly BS

Hehehe. We'll see.

[Marblehead]

 

What are those specific things that are in question or being silly BS......??? Please advise........!!!

Please be patient Chidragon. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

It sounds like so far, he is opening questions and laying the foundation for larger, piercing questions...

You are exactly correct. Later we talk about "real people".