Chapter 1, Section 1 Concepts

[Stosh]

That's not what I mean by non-locality.

Non-locality is something that is discussed in modern physics and often applied with respect to the nature of consciousness or awareness. It first came to the attention of physicists and mathematicians with the advent of quantum mechanics and one of the classical experiments that demonstrates the effect is called Bell's Theorem.

I read most of all that Steve, and Im not up to speed on the math , but it looks like the entanglement of the two particles is measured in three orientations each , the results are always opposite for one orientation , always the same for another and 50-50 for the third, indicating just potential influence at a distance BETWEEN ENTANGLED PARTICLES ,

So its not a potential 'yin and yang' style polemic model.

Yes entanglement theory is ,,, nifty and odd, but it doesnt say anything about unentangled particles , and it doesnt say that brains are entangled. So there is precisely Zero reason to consider minds to all be attatched to some unity or other Or that no minds are connected to an entanglement unity either ,,,or,, that Zz was referring to anything like that in chapter one. So I personally dont see how a quantum entanglement analogy sheds light on the chapter . Since the theorem says absolutely nothing at all on why this phenomenon occurs .

Maybe we agree and Im looking at it too closely though.

[Marblehead]

Well, I'm confused but you guys go ahead on.

[Marblehead]

Okay. I didn't speak to this earlier because I wanted others to speak to it. I have my opinions and understandings but I don't necessarily want anyone to accept them without question. As I have grown fond of saying recently: Question everything.

 

So to these questions, now that we have started Chapter 2 and the discussion of Chapter 1 seems to have ended except for the BTW thoughts, I will speak to your questions.

 

Are they speaking of how the large affects the small?

I don't think so. I think it would be an error to read that into what he said. But I think it can be assumed that the large and the small have their own places in the scheme of things.

 

How the wind of the Peng flying ripples out and affects all the myriad things in its wake?

Do you mean like the butterfly in Africa flappinhg its wings results in a hurricane in Florida? So in a way, maybe a better response to your first question could be "Maybe".

 

If so, is that talking about a cosmogenesis or cultivation?

Chuang Tzu flips back and forth while talking about a concept between the Way of Tay and the way of man. Many times what he has said can be viewed from both perspectives.

 

Maybe its saying that a person who is highly cultivated, when they move, they are capable of sending ripples into the world with their being.

Sure, why not? And also move without being noticed. Somewhere he says that the perfect traveller is one who leaves no footprints. In other words, the traveller can move at his free will and no one notices him.

[Marblehead]

The other message I seem to be getting is one of acceptance of one's own station and acceptance of that of others.

Each of us has the opportunity to live to our fullest potential and yet (to paraphrase Einstein) you can't judge a fish by asking it to climb a tree. And to those Daoists in his day practicing the whole host of methods for prolonging life, could he be questioning all of that?

I think he was, yes. Now, he does suggest that there is a 'best' way to live so that we don't die a premature death. But then he took death as a natural flow of things. I think he would likely say that we cannot extend our lifetime beyond its natural full potential.

[Marblehead]

There. I'm all caught up now.

[Stosh]

 

They did some tests that one subatomic particle can influence another seemingly too far away -kilometers . I think its outside the scale we live at , like li peng and steve may think similarly, but somehow correlating it to yin influencing yang as an instantaneos. Counterbalancing effect.

Well, I'm confused but you guys go ahead on.

They did some tests that one subatomic particle can influence another seemingly too far away -kilometers . I think its outside the scale we live at , like li peng vs a sparrow. and steve may think similarly, but somehow correlating it to yin influencing yang as an instantaneos. Counterbalancing effect. Edited August 13, 2013 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

IF WATER is not heaped up deep enough, it will not have the strength to support a big boat. Upset a cup of water in a cavity, and a straw will float on it as if it were a boat. Place a cup in it, and it will stick fast; – the water is shallow and the boat is large. (So it is with) the accumulation of wind; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support great wings. Therefore (the Peng ascended to) the height of 90,000 li, and there was such a mass of wind beneath it; thenceforth the accumulation of wind was sufficient. As it seemed to bear the blue sky on its back, and there was nothing to obstruct or arrest its course, it could pursue its way to the South.

 

A cicada and a little dove laughed at it, saying, 'We make an effort and fly towards an elm or sapan-wood tree; and sometimes before we reach it, we can do no more but drop to the ground.

 

Of what use is it for this (creature) to rise 90,000 li, and make for the South?'

 

He who goes to the grassy suburbs, returning to the third meal (of the day), will have his belly as full as when he set out;

 

he who goes to a distance of 100 li will have to pound his grain where he stops for the night; he who goes a thousand li, will have to carry with him provisions for three months.

 

What should these two small creatures know about the matter? The knowledge of that which is small does not reach to that which is great; (the experience of) a few years does not reach to that of many. How do we know that it is so?

 

The mushroom of a morning does not know (what takes place between) the beginning and end of a month; the short-lived cicada does not know (what takes place between) the spring and autumn. These are instances of a short term of life.

 

In the south of Ku [2], there is the (tree) called Ming-ling, whose spring is 500 years, and its autumn the same; in high antiquity there was that called Ta Khun, whose spring was 8000 years, and its autumn the same. And Master Peng is the one man renowned to the present day for his length of life: if all men were (to wish) to match him, would they not be miserable?

 

Zhuang Tze used a cicada and a turtle dove( two small creature) AND the Kun fish and the Peng bird(two big creatures) to show their contrast in size and wisdom due to their limitation to acquire knowledge and abilities which are restricted by Nature. The cicada had never knew what spring and autumn were like; the turtle dove only has the limited ability to go up and down the elm tree. While the Peng bird has great ability to fly at high altitude and long distance. Intelligent wise, the Peng bird has a better chance to have a broader vision and capability to expand its wisdom.

 

The implication of the metaphor was:

Since the ability of humans are not restricted nor deprived by Nature like the cicada and the turtle dove, it was encouraging humans to enhance their wisdom to a higher level of intelligence. Hence, Zhuang Tze exaggerated about the gigantic size of the Kun fish and Peng bird was for a purpose. It was to have people to go beyond their imagination to attain a broader mental capacity.

Edited August 13, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

 

Zhuang Tze used a cicada and a turtle dove( two small creature) AND the Kun fish and the Peng bird(two big creatures) to show their contrast in size and wisdom due to their limitation to acquire knowledge and abilities which are restricted by Nature. The cicada had never knew what spring and autumn were like; the turtle dove only has the limited ability to go up and down the elm tree. While the Peng bird has great ability to fly at high altitude and long distance. Intelligent wise, the Peng bird has a better chance to have a broader vision and capability to expand its wisdom.

 

The implication of the metaphor was:

Since the ability of humans are not restricted nor deprived by Nature like the cicada and the turtle dove, it was encouraging humans to enhance their wisdom to a higher level of intelligence. Hence, Zhuang Tze exaggerated about the gigantic size of the Kun fish and Peng bird was for a purpose. It was to have people to go beyond their imagination to attain a broader mental capacity.

A cicada and a little dove laughed at it, saying, 'We make an effort and fly towards an elm or sapan-wood tree; and sometimes before we reach it, we can do no more but drop to the ground.

 

Doesnt it mean that they can only make short flights , they dont have the oompf to cross continents ?

Yes thats really picky on my part. It just sounds odd that a turtle dove could only fly up and down the same tree, doves are actually fairly strong fliers and hit 45 mph.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

A cicada and a little dove laughed at it, saying, 'We make an effort and fly towards an elm or sapan-wood tree; and sometimes before we reach it, we can do no more but drop to the ground.

 

Doesnt it mean that they can only make short flights , they dont have the oompf to cross continents ?

Yes thats really picky on my part. It just sounds odd that a turtle dove could only fly up and down the same tree, doves are actually fairly strong fliers and hit 45 mph.

 

 

I think that this might have been alluding to the fact that different species have their own set of capabilities and capacities. Chuang Tzu speaks to this later. This might have been just a teasing of the concept.

[Stosh]

Yeah but its like saying the turtle sat upon a lilly pad and caught flies with his tongue!

[ChiDragon]

A cicada and a little dove laughed at it, saying, 'We make an effort and fly towards an elm or sapan-wood tree; and sometimes before we reach it, we can do no more but drop to the ground.

 

Doesnt it mean that they can only make short flights , they dont have the oompf to cross continents ?

Yes thats really picky on my part. It just sounds odd that a turtle dove could only fly up and down the same tree, doves are actually fairly strong fliers and hit 45 mph.

 

 

 

I think Zhuang Tze was making a point that the two little creatures were happy with their limitations as they are. Even though Nature did not give them anymore than they deserve. He did mention that they fell off the tree once awhile. Wasn't that a dead give way that they can't fly very far. How dare you argue with a sage like Zhuang Tze.....

 

PS....

Please follow Zhuang Tze's advice by doing a little cultivation for your mind and read carefully........... .

[doc benway]

I read most of all that Steve, and Im not up to speed on the math , but it looks like the entanglement of the two particles is measured in three orientations each , the results are always opposite for one orientation , always the same for another and 50-50 for the third, indicating just potential influence at a distance BETWEEN ENTANGLED PARTICLES ,

So its not a potential 'yin and yang' style polemic model.

Yes entanglement theory is ,,, nifty and odd, but it doesnt say anything about unentangled particles , and it doesnt say that brains are entangled. So there is precisely Zero reason to consider minds to all be attatched to some unity or other Or that no minds are connected to an entanglement unity either ,,,or,, that Zz was referring to anything like that in chapter one. So I personally dont see how a quantum entanglement analogy sheds light on the chapter . Since the theorem says absolutely nothing at all on why this phenomenon occurs .

Maybe we agree and Im looking at it too closely though.

Non-locality is a difficult concept to grasp, whether from a mathematical or qualitative perspective. I didn't really intend to take the association too literally or dogmatically. On the other hand, there is fairly solid evidence that particles are connected in some way over great distances and possibly times. Furthermore, through meditative practices we can get a glimpse of characteristics of consciousness that are non-local. As I was trying to understand why ZZ would choose to refer to his bird and fish in such outrageously extreme terms, and combined that with water and air (which are ubiquitous - in and outside of our bodies and throughout our environment), this seemed to possibly allude to non-locality. I could be totally misreading but thought I'd share.

 

 

I don't think so. I think it would be an error to read that into what he said. But I think it can be assumed that the large and the small have their own places in the scheme of things.

I think that in speaking of the large and small side by side, he is also pointing to the superimposition of the microcosm and macrocosm. This concept is fundamental in Daoist cultivation (and is pervasive in spirituality).

 

 

Do you mean like the butterfly in Africa flappinhg its wings results in a hurricane in Florida? So in a way, maybe a better response to your first question could be "Maybe".

Another hint at non-locality? Or more one of the interconnectedness of all actions (karma).

 

 

 

Chuang Tzu flips back and forth while talking about a concept between the Way of Tay and the way of man. Many times what he has said can be viewed from both perspectives.

Microcosm/macrocosm

 

 

Somewhere he says that the perfect traveller is one who leaves no footprints. In other words, the traveller can move at his free will and no one notices him.

Forgive me for noticing and pointing to the Daoist/Buddhist parallels but this is very similar to Buddhist teachings (which I think are historically inextricable from Daoism). When our thoughts and actions are 'correct' we do not accumulate karma. That is equivalent (in my mind) to saying that the traveller leaves no footprints and can move at will without being noticed. Here is a brief excerpt from Vivid Awareness by Khenchen Thrangu about the Dzogchen method: "While you remain in undistracted naturalness it is utterly impossible to accumulate karma and you have cut the stream of the further accumulation of karma." And this is not only on the meditation cushion but to be brought into every moment of one's life.

[Marblehead]

Yeah but its like saying the turtle sat upon a lilly pad and caught flies with his tongue!

And the tuttle can do that if it is small enough to remain afloat on the lilly pad.

[Marblehead]

 

PS....

Please follow Zhuang Tze's advice by doing a little cultivation for your mind and read carefully........... .

And don't try to fly too far.

[Marblehead]

I think that in speaking of the large and small side by side, he is also pointing to the superimposition of the microcosm and macrocosm. This concept is fundamental in Daoist cultivation (and is pervasive in spirituality).

Agreed.

 

Another hint at non-locality? Or more one of the interconnectedness of all actions (karma).

I think both. While "karma" is a concept he had never heard about he is rooted in the concept of "cause and effect".

 

Microcosm/macrocosm

Hehehe. You like those concepts: Non-locality and Micro/macro.

 

While I don't speak to them I do understand what you are pointing at.

 

Forgive me for noticing and pointing to the Daoist/Buddhist parallels but this is very similar to Buddhist teachings (which I think are historically inextricable from Daoism). When our thoughts and actions are 'correct' we do not accumulate karma. That is equivalent (in my mind) to saying that the traveller leaves no footprints and can move at will without being noticed. Here is a brief excerpt from Vivid Awareness by Khenchen Thrangu about the Dzogchen method: "While you remain in undistracted naturalness it is utterly impossible to accumulate karma and you have cut the stream of the further accumulation of karma." And this is not only on the meditation cushion but to be brought into every moment of one's life.

I'll forgive you. Hehehe.

 

Yes, I have laways said that Taoism and Buddhism have more in common than they have in opposition. In this study of Chuang Tzu we will see many more commonalities than we did when we were studying the TTC.

[Stosh]

Yeah ,, thats true , and so can a bird be so screwed up it can only go up and down a tree. But oddities often make for less than ideal analogies because they are exceptions to the rules not broadly relateable. I figure the Li peng is another such which is why its so easy for ZZ to be difficult ,, but it also adds a bit of whimsy. I was thinking that the name turtle dove is odd ,, perhaps there was once some now lost myth about them only going up and down one tree.. A better modern choice would be a goat sucker.

But yes , Im willing to stand against Zz even-- if he is promoting a 'crock'.

 

Another could probably broaden their horizons enough to realize that doves can fly just fine simply by looking out a window once in a while..

Edited August 13, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Let's remember that Chuang Tzu loved to exaggerate in order to make a point. There is a lot of fiction in Chuang Tzu's writings.

[Stosh]

Ok Ok

[Stosh]

I was just thinking there might be more to it than random. It looks like cicadas are symbolic of rebirth change , doves of longevity fidelity and he could have been poking at reincarnation and immortality.

[rene]

.

Edited August 15, 2013 by rene

[Marblehead]

I was just thinking there might be more to it than random. It looks like cicadas are symbolic of rebirth change , doves of longevity fidelity and he could have been poking at reincarnation and immortality.

But remember, Buddhism was not in China yet when he was writing so he would not have been poking at reincarnation.

[Stosh]

Thats reasonable , but even before Buddhism got on that scene, the Vedic religions had reincarnation , and it would be surprising if there was no reputation of it . I dont know if the Shamanist traditions had it as well if they are considered to predate Zz either. Not to mention homegrown reincarnation ,, even christianity has it though thats not generally a recognized theme.

So he Could have been poking at reincarnation, methinks ,until you can discount it more thoroughly.

 

The Tarim mummies are a series of mummies discovered in the Tarim Basin in present-day Xinjiang, China, which date from 1800 BCE to 200 CE.^[1][2] The mummies, particularly the early ones, are frequently associated with the presence of the Indo-European Tocharian languages in the Tarim Basin,^[3] although the evidence is not totally conclusive and many centuries separate these mummies from the first attestation of the Tocharian languages in writing. Victor H. Mair's team concluded that the mummies are basically Europoid, likely speakers of Indo-European languages.^[4]

 

^{3800 years is early enough to predate Zz , and it indicates that at least in the more western portions of china there was already trade with far reaching cultures outside China proper.}

Edited August 13, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Okay. The thread title has been changed. I have left all posts remain in this thread. We will do Chapter 1, Section 2 as soon as everyone is ready.

 

I will do the same thing with what we have already started with Chapter 2 when we get to that point.

 

So we are still talking to the question: Is azure the proper colour of the sky?

[Marblehead]

So he Could have been poking at reincarnation, methinks ,until you can discount it more thoroughly.

Hehehe. No, I won't contest what you have said. I am sure the Shamanic traditions has some type of life after death. And yes, I am sure there were interactions amongst the peoples of West China with others along the Jade Road. (I just heard that this was the original name of the Silk Road.)

 

Edit to add:

 

But no Buddhism. Hehehe.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

Dont need no Buddhism , most of it is borrowed or ,, adjusted since, Gautama anyway.

 

Is azure the proper color of the sky ?

1 Is that title actually part of the ancient writings ?

 

2 no it is cerulean

 

3 all things are exactly as they are " there is no proper or improper"

 

4 one cant tell if another sees the same color as they do , its subjective

 

5 no the sky has no actual color the impression is due to differential diffraction so it could be called orange or red or clear etc. But he may not know that yet.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Stosh