Chapter 1, Section 1 Concepts

[Marblehead]

1 Is that title actually part of the ancient writings ?

I would say with fair certainty that the section titles as well as the concept entries by Giles were not part of the original text. I would think that they were added by the translator to help the reader grasp the individual stories and concepts contained therein.

 

Neither Burton Watson nor Lin Yutang have any of that in their translation. I am sure anyone who reads Chinese could make a definative statement to this.

 

 

Edit to add: I agree the objective is exactly what it is. It is the subjective that confuses things.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

Trying to get this added up, Cd says that Zz is the big fish Kun which becomes the peng which in section 2 Zz says is the longest lived man. So Ming ling and Ta Khun would also be people who are not as wise as he is because he had more help from wind.

[Marblehead]

Trying to get this added up, Cd says that Zz is the big fish Kun which becomes the peng which in section 2 Zz says is the longest lived man. So Ming ling and Ta Khun would also be people who are not as wise as he is because he had more help from wind.

Hehehe. Don't believe everything CD says. And more importantly, question everything.

[Stosh]

Ok Who or what is represented by wind if it isn't the wind association with the heavens ?

[ChiDragon]

Trying to get this added up, Cd says that Zz is the big fish Kun which becomes the peng which in section 2 Zz says is the longest lived man. So Ming ling and Ta Khun would also be people who are not as wise as he is because he had more help from wind.

 

I've never said anything like that...........

 

Hehehe. Don't believe everything CD says. And more importantly, question everything.

 

Don't believe everything you read. Yes, question everything.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

I am pretty sure you posted that Cz liked to exaggerate that he was a giant fish. But even if not , just following the subject along through the end of the chapter it looks like he actually is making use of multiple names and analogies for his own progress through previous ignorance as Leih tzu and had been too materialistic to understand the perspective of subjectivity and admits his new name as Mastr r Chuang now that he had wised up. SO the whole chapter is a discussion about his journey to this new perspective. Now I see why there is speculation about whether the two were really one and the same persons or philosophies. VERY interesting. Ill just stick with that because it is at least a common thread , until a more convincing interp is leveled .

Edited August 14, 2013 by Stosh

[dawei]

Thats reasonable , but even before Buddhism got on that scene, the Vedic religions had reincarnation , and it would be surprising if there was no reputation of it . I dont know if the Shamanist traditions had it as well if they are considered to predate Zz either. Not to mention homegrown reincarnation ,, even christianity has it though thats not generally a recognized theme.

So he Could have been poking at reincarnation, methinks ,until you can discount it more thoroughly.

 

The Tarim mummies are a series of mummies discovered in the Tarim Basin in present-day Xinjiang, China, which date from 1800 BCE to 200 CE.^[1][2] The mummies, particularly the early ones, are frequently associated with the presence of the Indo-European Tocharian languages in the Tarim Basin,^[3] although the evidence is not totally conclusive and many centuries separate these mummies from the first attestation of the Tocharian languages in writing. Victor H. Mair's team concluded that the mummies are basically Europoid, likely speakers of Indo-European languages.^[4]

 

^{3800 years is early enough to predate Zz , and it indicates that at least in the more western portions of china there was already trade with far reaching cultures outside China proper.}

 

However Tangential... this is a good historical point. North and Northwest China was predominately non-Chinese going back... well as far back as we may want to go. Certainly the Han documented numerous troubles with these people and we can only imagine their long period of settlement similar to the eventual settlements around the Yellow River.

[dawei]

I just realized that I missed on 10 pages of discuss...

 

 

I'll even put it out there that the extreme scale of the Kun and Peng combined with water and air give me a sense of non-locality.

 

I wanted to say that ZZ is trying to undermine our perception of things; this is much more than an exaggeration going on. I have not heard of non-locality before but it makes sense.

[Stosh]

However Tangential... this is a good historical point. North and Northwest China was predominately non-Chinese going back... well as far back as we may want to go. Certainly the Han documented numerous troubles with these people and we can only imagine their long period of settlement similar to the eventual settlements around the Yellow River.

The Tarim site seems to imply that the folks there were traders that intermarried with the local types rather than being alien troublemakers.

I don't know , they may have conquered that area, its not salient here though -I'm just pointing to it as contact between east and west , trading, cross cultural dispersion of ideas ,, even predating Huang Lao.

 

And, by the way, nice to have you join in this discussion.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Ok Who or what is represented by wind if it isn't the wind association with the heavens ?

Maybe the true nature of Tao? (Its Tzujan, its true naturalness.)

[Marblehead]

I am pretty sure you posted that Cz liked to exaggerate that he was a giant fish.

Yes he did say that. But he was trying to make a point that he did not represent very well at all. Hehehe. He gets better (more clarity) when you question him.

[Stosh]

Maybe the true nature of Tao? (Its Tzujan, its true naturalness.)

Ok, in the other section , peng is mountainlike , covering both bases ( peng and Kun) thats a reasonable fit.

[Marblehead]

And, by the way, nice to have you join in this discussion.

Yes, I know that Dawei has much he can offer to these discussions.

[Stosh]

Yes he did say that. But he was trying to make a point that he did not represent very well at all. Hehehe. He gets better (more clarity) when you question him.

I would rather pester him.

[Stosh]

Yes, I know that Dawei has much he can offer to these discussions.

Agreed , his perspective is altogether different from me and Urob.s

[Marblehead]

I would rather pester him.

That works too within limits. He does get defiant upon reaching any of the limits.

[Stosh]

.

 

No worries

Edited August 14, 2013 by Stosh

[dawei]

The Tarim site seems to imply that the folks there were traders that intermarried with the local types rather than being alien troublemakers.

I don't know , they may have conquered that area, its not salient here though -I'm just pointing to it as contact between east and west , trading, cross cultural dispersion of ideas ,, even predating Huang Lao.

 

And, by the way, nice to have you join in this discussion.

 

I did see the link and 'tradiing' ... I was only extending to idea that the north and northwest were non-chinese anyways... and we know of such settlements as well. So I don't find it that difficult to see this location was home to trading.

 

And thanks.

[Stosh]

I did see the link and 'tradiing' ... I was only extending to idea that the north and northwest were non-chinese anyways... and we know of such settlements as well. So I don't find it that difficult to see this location was home to trading.

 

And thanks.

Ok , Ive been looking on the web , it seems there were a number of Neolithic cultures in the area north south east and west of Shaanxi back to 7000 BCe or so ,, and so it would depend on what one was calling "non chinese".

 

The Pengtoushan culture (simplified Chinese: 彭头山文化; traditional Chinese: 彭頭山文化), dating 7500–6100 BCE,^[1] was a Neolithic culture centered primarily around the central Yangtze River region in northwestern Hunan, China.

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

May I assume that we are ready for Chapter 1, Section 2?

[Uroboros]

Maybe the wind is Qi. Breath/ Qi.

 

In the failed attempts thread, Taomeow suggested that- "In the Northern Deep there is a great fish, thousands of miles long. It turns into a giant bird whose back is thousands of miles in size. When it gets aroused and takes to flight, its wings are like clouds covering the sky." Could be Taiji.

 

I had not thought of that at all. Now looking at it..the wind could be Qi. Qi is created by the movement of Kun to Peng...

 

Maybe a reference to the bellows in the TTC...

 

Hmm....I am still pondering this idea.

 

Peace.

[rene]

I am, but just wanted to say the the concepts in Section 1 seem to be about perspectives... and I find no instance of conflict with Laozi thought. (-:

Edited August 15, 2013 by rene

[Marblehead]

Yea!!!

 

Yes, perspectives is just as good a word to use.

[Stosh]

_{Yeah well the prespective of the young might look like its similar to the perspective of the wizened.}

[rene]

very true, and time will tell if it is actually the case or not. until then, anything's possible.

Edited August 15, 2013 by rene