Resting the mind in its natural state

[doc benway]

TI - What you are describing is very similar in principle to certain Daoist methods.

My teacher refers to the focused awareness as the 'mind of intent'

Very effective methods for cultivating samatha, among other things.

Very interesting to read.

Thanks

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I thought I should mention, that method that I posted from Alan Wallace which is 'settling the mind in the natural state', is not an instruction on how to become enlightened, nor how to break on through and realize the big rigpa (or mother clear light as is defined in the text called "Naked Awareness".) It is just a way of settling the ordinary coarse mind in it's natural state. It doesn't get you out of samsara.

Oh, I'm aware that this is just a shamatha practice, which can lead to some insights, but doesn't have the full vipasanna side or capacity for breaking through to rigpa needed for liberation.

 

Basically my plan right now is to:

 

1) Reach stage 4 focusing on anapana, while also doing this as a secondary practice to cut at my hindrances from another angle.

2) Switch focus to resting the mind, but continue with anapana as a secondary since it's so good for relaxation and so on - and reach around stage 7.

3) Replace anapana with awareness of awareness to get started with that super-subtle practice.

4) When I've got the hang of awareness of awareness, just use that to achieve shamatha.

5) Use koans for vipasanna.

 

Of course, I may end up following a different route depending on my experience.

[rex]

No idea. Alan Wallace, who is fluent in Tibetan, said it and that Tibetans therefore say "I am practising/accomplishing shamatha" in The Attention Revolution.

 

 

If I ever chance upon the word I'll post it : )

[RongzomFan]

Oh, I'm aware that this is just a shamatha practice, which can lead to some insights, but doesn't have the full vipasanna side or capacity for breaking through to rigpa needed for liberation.

 

Basically my plan right now is to:

 

1) Reach stage 4 focusing on anapana, while also doing this as a secondary practice to cut at my hindrances from another angle.

2) Switch focus to resting the mind, but continue with anapana as a secondary since it's so good for relaxation and so on - and reach around stage 7.

3) Replace anapana with awareness of awareness to get started with that super-subtle practice.

4) When I've got the hang of awareness of awareness, just use that to achieve shamatha.

5) Use koans for vipasanna.

 

Of course, I may end up following a different route depending on my experience.

 

What is stage 4 and stage 7

[Seeker of Wisdom]

 

What is stage 4 and stage 7

First I'll define some terms:

 

*Coarse excitation - awareness completely leaves object.

*Moderate excitation - awareness only slightly on object.

*Subtle excitation - awareness not quite fully on object.

 

*Coarse laxity - completely spaced out.

*Moderate laxity - dull level of vividness.

*Subtle laxity - object vivid but dull attention.

 

Brief summary of the stages of shamatha:

 

1) Can place awareness on something.

2) Avoid coarse excitation for about a minute.

3) Can avoid coarse excitation for majority of session and quickly correct it.

4) No coarse excitation.

5) Take satisfaction in samadhi, no coarse laxity.

6) No moderate excitation, lots of junk in the mind clearing out.

7) No moderate laxity.

8) No excitation or laxity, but effort required.

9) Effortless samadhi, but causes of excitation and laxity are still latent.

 

Shamatha is achieved when stage 9 has deepened into access concentration, which makes the jhanas possible.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Seeker of Tao

[Seeker of Wisdom]

 

If I ever chance upon the word I'll post it : )

I don't know the spelling, but it sounds like 'doopa'.

 

From the last few minutes of no.13: http://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

[Anderson]

If you haven't recognized or discovered that which is always there, inescapable presence , pervading all your activities , your meditation no matter how wonderful or rested it may be is still conceptual.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Anderson

[Seeker of Wisdom]

If you haven't recognized or discovered that which is always there, inescapable presence , pervading all your activities , your meditation no matter how wonderful or rested it may be is still conceptual.

...

Edited August 22, 2013 by Seeker of Tao

[Anderson]

Yes. What's your point?

 

You must realise that it's almost impossible to realise rigpa without achieving shamatha as a foundation - even if you somehow do, it won't be stable - and non-meditation is only possible from having realised rigpa?

 

At least, that's what Alan Wallace, Padmasambhava, Tsongkhapa, Dudjom Lingpa, Dudjom Rinpoche and others have said. And it makes sense - if you haven't realised rigpa, even not trying to do anything is a conceptual action.

 

Many profound practices, few profound practitioners... Why do you shun everything below non-meditation when most people are nowhere near ready for it? You're completely ignoring that different people are at different levels of ripeness. There are very few people who your message is relevant to.

 

Don't you think there's a reason the masters didn't just say 'do tekchö then non-meditation', or even 'Stop being conceptual! It's so easy, you are already Buddhas, why can't you realise rigpa, damnit!' Not a very helpful instruction for 99.999% of people.

 

Everyone seemingly wants to skip shamatha for more 'profound' 'non-conceptual' stuff... but if you haven't made the five hindrances go dormant by achieving shamatha, advanced stuff will either be useless or bring only a transitory facsimile of the intended effect.

You are conflating discovering rigpa with realizing rigpa or bringing it to its full fruition.

They are two different things.

 

Discovery of rigpa can be done without shamata.There are many other methods which can be employed(much more swifter and efficient)to discover it if you failed to discover it during transmision.

 

And my message is that people should go back to original dzogchen as taught by the supreme Garab Dorje.

 

And as regards progressing in treckchod (which most aspiring dzogchenpas should focus on and which sould be the most important part of their life for the years ahead ) it is not necessary to rest undistracted in rigpa , it is good enough if one rests in the continuous energy and vibrancy of that presence.As to the distinctions between these two things and how you can realistically rest and what you have to do , you need to talk to your teacher and obtain instructions..

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I don't have any interest in debating.

[RongzomFan]

Yes. What's your point?

 

You must realise that it's almost impossible to realise rigpa without achieving shamatha as a foundation - even if you somehow do, it won't be stable - and non-meditation is only possible from having realised rigpa?

 

Reference?

 

BTW, Anderson atleast has transmission.

 

 

At least, that's what Alan Wallace, Padmasambhava, Tsongkhapa, Dudjom Lingpa, Dudjom Rinpoche and others have said.

 

Reference?

 

Alan Wallace actually emphasizes samatha is not Dzogchen.

 

Dudjom Lingpa, as a terton, revealed a whole spectrum of teachings. That doesn't mean everything he revealed is Dzogchen.

 

In fact tertons mostly reveal Anuyoga, not Dzogchen.

 

And even in traditional Vajrayana, the third empowerment involves sexual union, and the pointing out is based on that. So I don't know where you got the idea that samatha is a prerequisite.

 

After initiation, Dzogchen has specific preliminaries such as rushan to help one recognize ma bcos shes pa skad cig ma.

Edited August 22, 2013 by alwayson

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...

Edited August 22, 2013 by Seeker of Tao

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I'm doing shamatha. Nobody can say that's harmful. End of.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

My points backed by Alan Wallace, a Dzogchenpa referring to multiple masters to make his case for shamatha, over and over again here:

 

http://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

He calls resting the mind in it's natural state 'a shamatha practice emphasised in Dzogchen'. He says realisation without shamatha is 'unstable'. He quotes a variety of masters bemoaning the fact that 'few people achieve shamatha'. He says 'if you haven't realised rigpa, non-meditation is rumination'. He says 'if you haven't achieved shamatha and try to practice Dzogchen, you aren't doing Dzogchen meditation or shamatha or vipasanna, you aren't progressing on any path'.

 

Bury your head in the sand all you like, but I won't.

 

I don't care about debate, scholarship, whether or not someone has transmission if they're wrong about the matter at hand.

 

I'm just someone doing my practice, using some ideas from Dzogchen, who would like to talk about the practice using Dzogchen terms, and for once not have the thread derailed by people who think having transmission and being scholarly means their opinion about shamatha is king and bring it up when it's completely irrelevant.

 

If you don't like shamatha, stay out of a thread about shamatha.

 

Being initiated in Dzogchen or Vajrayana or having transmission doesn't make you better than anyone else. It doesn't make your opinions about anything any stronger or weaker, apart from the aspects of these traditions which you need initiation to know, which is not the topic here.

 

I don't need transmission to know that shamatha is a key part of Dzogchen. Alan Wallace has transmission and loads of study and practice, so I'm trusting him on this matter.

 

If you disagree, feel free to debate with Alan Wallace if you like, but leave this thread. This thread is about a shamatha practice linked to Dzogchen, not the relevance or lack thereof of shamatha to Dzogchen.

 

If you want to discuss experiences and advice of the shamatha method of resting the mind in its natural state, that's what this thread is for. The clue is in the title.

 

 

Is this thread about samatha?

 

That's not clear at all.

 

And Allan Wallace vehemently says samatha is not Dzogchen

 

Start listening to Alan Wallace at 1:25

 

"not Vajrayana. Not Dzogchen."

 

 

[RongzomFan]

fine i'll leave this thread. samatha does not interest me in the slightest.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Back to the actual topic, and in future I'll try harder to not let myself get dragged off into arguing...

 

 

Meditating with eyes open, and I have moments now where I'm focused enough on the mind that absolutely no awareness goes to the visual.

 

It's different from seeing only darkness, because then awareness is still going into the visual field but nothing is visible. My eyes are still working, but the eye-consciousness is dormant.

 

So, I suppose blind people don't even 'see' darkness, unless recently blinded. They don't have any visual experience, in the same way that humans can't sense electricity like hammerhead sharks do but we don't experience a lack of electro sense, either.

 

This makes me wonder exactly what happens to consciousness in deep sleep. There must some of the sense consciousnesses still active there, otherwise a loud noise wouldn't wake a sleeping person. And mind consciousness being collapsed in the alaya would explain why it seems there is no consciousness in deep sleep.

 

Neuroscientists, psychologists and cultivators should really work together on stuff like this.

[Uroboros]

Back to the actual topic, and in future I'll try harder to not let myself get dragged off into arguing...

 

 

Meditating with eyes open, and I have moments now where I'm focused enough on the mind that absolutely no awareness goes to the visual.

 

It's different from seeing only darkness, because then awareness is still going into the visual field but nothing is visible. My eyes are still working, but the eye-consciousness is dormant.

 

So, I suppose blind people don't even 'see' darkness, unless recently blinded. They don't have any visual experience, in the same way that humans can't sense electricity like hammerhead sharks do but we don't experience a lack of electro sense, either.

 

This makes me wonder exactly what happens to consciousness in deep sleep. There must some of the sense consciousnesses still active there, otherwise a loud noise wouldn't wake a sleeping person. And mind consciousness being collapsed in the alaya would explain why it seems there is no consciousness in deep sleep.

 

Neuroscientists, psychologists and cultivators should really work together on stuff like this.

 

Some blind people still see. They do "see" darkness. Black. even if its been awhile.

 

Which brings up an interesting question. What is sight?

 

On the deep sleep, I have been in dreamless sleep where there is no awareness and then suddenly there is, a tiny bit of it.

 

Then its back to darkness, then nothing. I say nothing because I am not aware of the experience. Its an absence of.

 

Peace

[idiot_stimpy]

Apparently concentration meditation brings about psychic phenomena

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Apparently concentration meditation brings about psychic phenomena

Yeah. I just psychically transferred all the cash from your bank account to mine.

 

[Uroboros]

 

This talk by Alan Wallace, I feel, ties into this topic and expands on it in an interesting direction.

 

Hope this is enjoyed!

 

Peace

[Tibetan_Ice]

You are conflating discovering rigpa with realizing rigpa or bringing it to its full fruition.

They are two different things.

 

Discovery of rigpa can be done without shamata.There are many other methods which can be employed(much more swifter and efficient)to discover it if you failed to discover it during transmision.

 

And my message is that people should go back to original dzogchen as taught by the supreme Garab Dorje.

 

And as regards progressing in treckchod (which most aspiring dzogchenpas should focus on and which sould be the most important part of their life for the years ahead ) it is not necessary to rest undistracted in rigpa , it is good enough if one rests in the continuous energy and vibrancy of that presence.As to the distinctions between these two things and how you can realistically rest and what you have to do , you need to talk to your teacher and obtain instructions..

Hi Anderson,

You are not familiar with Alan Wallace's teachings and his use of the term 'rigpa'. To Alan Wallace, rigpa is not simple awareness by the coarse mind, but that which is pristine awareness, which only arises after the substrate consciousness has receded into the substrate and then the substrate is broken through. This diferentiation is also clearly elucidated in the the terms "son clear light" and "mother clear light" or child rigpa and mother rigpa in other reputable teachings.

 

For example, here is that specific diferentiation:

Basic rigpa, unoriginated brilliant emptiness, is the “mother” clear light of spontaneity, while the emptiness of unoriginated luminous self-expression is the self-sprung “son” clear light. This pair, luminous self-expression and natural clarity, though separate are blended or conjoined. With freedom from corporeality, they coalesce and the natural state in the “mother” disposition is resumed; whether or not there is freedom from the shell of corporeality, there are no distinctions in rigpa. The medium of pristine awareness is a mixture of luminous self-expression and clarity, which is illustrated by the union of mother and son. The first mode of resolution is like the opening of a door allowing the coalescence of external and internal space in the here-and-now (canto 89) where in “the cavern of karmic potential” appearances are naturally recognized as rigpa. The second mode is likened to the complete collapse of the house in total corporeal dissolution (canto 89 and see also canto 122ii).

 

Super-transparence is the medium of the quantum leap in the first mode. Techniques of concentrated absorption in meditation do not facilitate these processes. Only nondual existential knowledge in the moment is valid. Without resolving all experience arising in the moment in “child” clear light, there can be no “jumping through” to the “mother’s lap” at the time of death:

Rabjam, Longchen (2012-06-25). Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 5867-5879). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.

 

 

So if you and others are saying the the Dzogchen transmission is that of the 'mother's lap', the mother clear light, I would be very surprised as that would imply that enlightenment can be transmitted from person to person, which is clearly not the case.

 

I know exactly what Seeker of Tao is saying for I too have studied Alan Wallace extensively, and if you don't have shamatha, you ain't got nothing.

 

And, here are some sources about the dependancy of realizing the Great Primordial Wisdom on the quiescence of the mind (shamatha):

 

CHAPTER THREE

The Cultivation of Quiescence

Homage to Avalokitesvara!

The profound practical instructions of Avalokite§vara on the method for subduing your own mind are for cultivating quiescence.

 

- The topic of this chapter is quiescence. What is it that is being quieted? Principally, the five poisons: delusion, attachment, hatred, pride, and jealousy. These are the primary mental afflictions, but as we know from our own experience, there are many secondary afflictions. The Tibetan term translated here as "quiescence" is "zhiney" (zhi gnas). The first syllable means "to pacify," for in the state of quiescence the five poisons are pacified. For this to be truly beneficial, the meditator must remain in that state in which they are subdued, otherwise they will swiftly re-emerge. Thus, the second syllable means "to remain, to be sustained."

 

What are the benefits of quiescence? What is the value of being able to attain and remain in a state in which the mental afflictions are subdued? Throughout the course of our lives, from a very early age, we have continually vacillated between pleasure and sorrow within this cycle of existence. This instability of our emotions indicates that we have not been able to remain in a quiescent state in which the mental afflictions have been calmed. That is why we undergo swings in mood, for example, between feeling lonely and feeling that we need more space.

 

- The Sutra on the Meeting of the Father and Son states: With respect to all of the Dharmas of the Buddha, I see no other way. If you achieve quiescence and great primordial wisdom, you will certainly become spontaneous.

 

- The Buddhas of the past attained enlightenment because they subdued their own minds, whereas we have failed to attain enlightenment because we have not subdued our minds. Without first achieving quiescence, great primordial wisdom cannot arise. Cultivation of quiescence is often likened to tilling a field: if you fail to prepare the ground, even though you plant

the crop, it will not bear a good harvest. Similarly, the cultivation of quiescence must precede the cultivation of insight and wisdom. Such cultivation is indispensable, and as a result of this training, you will certainly become spontaneous, or literally "self-arisen," which is a mark of realization.

 

- The Sutra on Possessing the Roots of Virtue states: Even though you guard ethical discipline for an eon and cultivate patience for a long period, if you do not become acquainted with reality, you are an extremist in relation to my teachings.

 

- In this passage, "becoming acquainted with reality" means cultivating quiescence. Thus, if you don't develop quiescence and subsequently insight, you are not really following the Buddha's path, even though you are attempting to practice the Dharma. You remain an "outsider" with respect to the teachings.

 

- The Sutra of Ananda's Instruction on Entering the Womb states: Whoever lacks the mind of meditative equipoise lacks pure primordial wisdom. The contaminations will not be eliminated, so by all means accomplish it!

 

- Here, "the mind of meditative equipoise" means quiescence, without which pure primordial wisdom does not arise; without such wisdom, the mental afflictions cannot be eliminated. In these teachings, we must distinguish between two terms: wisdom (Tib. shes rab, Skt. prajna) and primordial wisdom (Tib. ye shes, Skt. jnana). The first term has the connotation of "supreme knowledge," and it refers to a kind of insight, intelligence, and wisdom that is acquired through hearing, thinking, and meditating. In contrast, primordial wisdom is innate insight, particularly into the nature of emptiness.

 

- A Lamp on the Path of Enlightenment comments: With inadequate preparation for quiescence, even if you practice meditation with great effort, samddhi will not be achieved even in a thousand years.

 

- Quiescence is an indispensable foundation for other types of meditation, such as insight. However, the practice of quiescence itself requires preparation, without which success will be impossible, despite great effort.

 

- A Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life states: Recognizing that the mental afflictions are eradicated by insight imbued with quiescence, one should first seek quiescence. That [quiescence] is achieved with detachment towards the world and with joy.'

 

And: ...a person whose mind is distracted lives between the fangs of mental afflictions.10

 

And: The Omniscient One stated that if recitations and all austerities are performed for a long time with a mind obsessed with something else, they are actually useless."

 

And: One who wishes to protect the practice should zealously guard the mind. One who neglects to guard the mind cannot protect the practice.12

 

And: By subduing the mind alone, they all become subdued."

 

And: Once I have forsaken the vow of guarding the mind, of what use are many vows to me?"

 

- In the Vajrayana tradition, there are vast numbers of teachings, vows, and techniques that we can practice. All are intended to protect the mind. There are many ritual implements and wonderful ornaments that we can wear, but we can become so preoccupied by such outer paraphernalia that we look as if we were costumed for a Halloween party. We can get so caught up in these external things that we miss the primary point, which is to subdue our own minds. -

 

Karma Chagme. A Spacious Path to Freedom: Practical Instructions on the Union of Mahamudra and Atiyoga (Kindle Location 828). Kindle Edition.

 

 

and this:

...

That is definitely not true of the substrate. The substrate is not the ground of nirvana. It is the ground of samsara, your own particular samsara. You can get to that space by withdrawing from the senses and from conceptualization—by simplifying and going into the cubbyhole of your substrate. Although that is not rigpa, Düdjom Lingpa says this experience of bliss, luminosity, and vacuity is indispensable on the path. We can postpone the achievement of shamatha as long as we like, while venturing into far more esoteric meditations. But if we want to come to the culmination of the cultivation of bodhichitta, vipashyana, the stages of generation and completion, and Dzogchen, sooner or later we need to focus single-pointedly on shamatha practice and carry through with it until our minds dissolve into the substrate consciousness as Düdjom Lingpa describes. This may take months or even years of full-time shamatha practice, and that calls for real sacrifice. But if we refuse to take up this challenge, all the other more advanced practices we explore are bound to hit a ceiling that we cannot transcend due to the imbalances of excitation and laxity that we have yet to overcome.

 

Wallace, B. Alan (2011-08-23). Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence (pp. 175-176). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

 

So, SOT is not confusing anything, if anything when discussing rigpa, one should distinquish which types of rigpa one is talking about, or adopt a common terminology and agreement to definition so as to avoid these meaningless confrontations.

 

[Anderson]

Hi Anderson,

You are not familiar with Alan Wallace's teachings and his use of the term 'rigpa'. To Alan Wallace, rigpa is not simple awareness by the coarse mind, but that which is pristine awareness, which only arises after the substrate consciousness has receded into the substrate and then the substrate is broken through. This diferentiation is also clearly elucidated in the the terms "son clear light" and "mother clear light" or child rigpa and mother rigpa in other reputable teachings.

 

For example, here is that specific diferentiation:

 

 

So if you and others are saying the the Dzogchen transmission is that of the 'mother's lap', the mother clear light, I would be very surprised as that would imply that enlightenment can be transmitted from person to person, which is clearly not the case.

 

I know exactly what Seeker of Tao is saying for I too have studied Alan Wallace extensively, and if you don't have shamatha, you ain't got nothing.

 

And, here are some sources about the dependancy of realizing the Great Primordial Wisdom on the quiescence of the mind (shamatha):

 

 

 

and this:

 

 

So, SOT is not confusing anything, if anything when discussing rigpa, one should distinquish which types of rigpa one is talking about, or adopt a common terminology and agreement to definition so as to avoid these meaningless confrontations.

 

 

When one discovers their own rigpa there are no distinctions to be made.

Is not like you discover rigpa and then there is something left outside of it or something more to discover , something more deeper, open, pervading...

But one should be aware that recognizing their rigpa doesnt mean realizing rigpa.

You only realize rigpa when the infinite attributes of that state of knowledge have been actualized

 

In practice there is only one rigpa to be discovered .

And that is all one should know.

 

As far as my practice and understanding is concerned Allan Wallace is unnecessary.

[idiot_stimpy]

“The Man of Truth has learned that Illusion is the One Reality, and that Substance is the Great Impostor.”

― H.P. Lovecraft

[rex]

I don't know the spelling, but it sounds like 'doopa'.

 

From the last few minutes of no.13: http://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

 

Thanks! I think I got it. It could be sgrub (pronounced drup).

 

Bunging sgrub into this translation tool with the results display set to Roman script a number of senses are given, including practice and accomplishment. Result!