Resting the mind in its natural state

[RongzomFan]

I can't make you follow my path, and you can't make me follow yours.

 

 

Actually you are a non-practitioner telling multiple practitioners they are wrong about their path.

[Simple_Jack]

If you don't approve of shamatha, just leave the thread. I can't make you follow my path, and you can't make me follow yours.

 

I hope I'm wrong, because if I am then maybe you will attain rainbow body soon. If so, please teach me.

 

You're not wrong for applying some samatha techniques from Wallace's books, but this shouldn't be conflated as being a representation of Dzogchen methods.

[C T]

You're not wrong for applying some samatha techniques from Wallace's books, but this shouldn't be conflated as being a representation of Dzogchen methods.

So, tell me, SJ, what is the true representation of Dzogchen methods, if at all methods are involved. What does being a Dzogchen practitioner entail?

 

Alan Wallace is not the only Vajrayana teacher who places emphasis on conjoining samatha and vipassana as a means to stabilize realization. You could try to enter into correspondence with Sogyal Rinpoche or Dzogchen Rinpoche (and other Nyingma lamas if you wish) to ask them what is the most trusted way to train in sustaining the view a.k.a 'resting the mind in its natural state'.

 

 

 

 

 

You can also get over 5 hours (in 5 parts) of teaching on Samatha and Vipassana by Khenpo Sherab Sangpo (Nyingma) on Youtube.

 

Also this:

 

[RongzomFan]

CT,

 

I noticed in more than one thread that you think Nyingmas don't teach sutra level teachings.

 

Its pretty weird.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Consider the original audience. Here's Milarepa's song to the shepherd boy:

 

 

This is pretty clear on shamatha and vipashyana brought together as necessary. Milarepa tells Gampopa, who already has this, to drop it and go higher. But he tells someone who doesn't have this attainment to go for it.

 

Yes, I really liked that quote! Deep resonation there.

There is also a part of that song that supports the idea of 'son rigpa', 'mother rigpa', or, 'son clear light' and 'mother clear light' for those of you who think Berzin's simplified use of the term 'rigpa' ( and others' too) encompasses both..

 

The great meditators who meditate in shamatha

Have powerful experiences, so brilliant and clear

They think that it's vipashyana and rest their mind at ease

But when vipashyana is needed at the point of death,

Luminosity's mother and child they cannot bring together

And so the shamatha they've practiced does not help at all.

 

 

There you have it. Milarepa himself has identified a 'mother and child' luminosity.

 

Thanks for posting that quote, SOT

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

If samatha was part of the "classic Dzogchen sequence", I would have read that somewhere before this forum.

 

Hey, Alwaysoff,

You say that you practice rushen.. Well, which practice do you do? There are three (unless you have some other source which is totally different, as I suspect you will acknowledge but refuse to divulge).

 

Rushen..

DISSOLVING SAMSARA In the teachings of the Great Perfection there is the concept of lhundrup, spontaneous perfection or spontaneous presence that characterizes all phenomena, including happiness and suffering. Whatever arises in experience is perfect just as it is. All phenomena are a manifestation of the five pure elemental lights and from the five lights all the qualities of nirvana ceaselessly manifest. It is only because we are trapped in erroneous dualistic views that we engage in an ultimately false struggle with experience. We only need to wake— like from a dream— for it to end, and when it does we realize that it was never real. But until we awaken, we suffer.

 

The world we experience, the world we perceive and think we know, has developed over time. We have substantialized it, made it concrete and distinctive, a dualistic world of “you and me.” Internal obscurations in the moving mind have resulted in apparently negative external phenomena; reactions to apparently external phenomena have reinforced internal obscurations. As we abide in the nature of mind, dissolving experience again and again into pure luminosity, experience eventually becomes a flow of light rather than solid forms, pure sound rather than noise or positive and negative speech, pure being rather than separate things and entities. The clarity and purity of the nature of mind result in apparently pure external phenomena. And the experience of that pure luminosity further stabilizes the practitioner in the nature of mind. This is the best way to balance the elements.

 

Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche’s translation of and commentary on Heart Drops of Dharmakaya (Ithaca, NY: Snow Lion Publications, 2002) contains instructions on the rushen practices, which are important foundational practices in Dzogchen. Rushen means to separate or discriminate, and the rushen practices are meant to clarify experiences of the pure and impure. They lead the practitioner to recognize the nature of mind rather than to be continually distracted by what arises as experience in the nature of mind. There are different categories of rushen: outer, inner, and secret.

 

The outer practices work with the body. For example, one practice involves standing in a difficult yogic posture, the vajra pose, that generates a movement of energy in the body and results in three benefits: the heat generated burns karma that affects the body so there is less disease and so on; the energy aroused burns the karma that negatively affects the energy body; and if the practitioner remains in rigpa while holding the posture, the karma that generates mental disturbance and defects in the view is burned.

 

When the posture cannot be further maintained, the practitioner collapses. In the moment of exhaustion there is again an opportunity for impure or pure experience. If the first, the practitioner is distracted by the release and is lost in the experience— this is like the forgetfulness in any ordinary exhaustion; if the latter, the practitioner abides in pure presence.

 

The inner rushen practices work on the energetic level. The syllable HUNG is visualized and moved in accord with the mind and breath, sometimes gently and sometimes wrathfully. The peaceful practices gently integrate all appearances with light; the wrathful practices forcefully destroy appearances and dissolve them in space. The practices are done many, many times. Each time that blocks, obstacles, and identifications are represented by images and destroyed, the habitual grasping in relation to them weakens. This is not a logical or rational process— things and identities, represented as images, are simply integrated with light or destroyed or dissolved. With nothing left to hold, the practitioner recognizes intrinsic awareness, rigpa, however briefly.

 

The secret rushen works directly with the mind. An inquiry is made into experience: Where do thoughts arise? abide? dissolve? When we look for the mind, nothing is found and the not finding is very clear. That is, what is found is the clarity of pure space, the nature of mind. If we recognize that space, we have found the nature of mind. If we do not recognize our own nature, the moving mind continues to search.

 

Practices like the rushen are preliminary practices. The real practice of Dzogchen cannot be described accurately because the words are only meaningful after one recognizes what they point toward. Most spiritual practices work to generate experiences, to develop certain positive qualities through which one finds oneself closer to one’s true nature. Dzogchen practice is not about generating anything. It is not about any particular experience but is the recognition of the basis of experience. All visions of the five external elements and the five internal elements, all thoughts and experiences, dissolve into the base. When all experiences stop, even the experiences of unconsciousness, sleep, and the sense of self, what remains is inseparable emptiness and luminosity. Abiding in this is Dzogchen practice.

 

 

Rinpoche, Tenzin Wangyal (2002-05-25). Healing with Form, Energy, and Light: The Five Elements in Tibetan Shamanism, Tantra, and Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 2947-2956). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

So, here we have Tenzin Wangyal saying "all thoughts and experiences, dissolve into the base" and that is exactly what Alan Wallace is teaching in his Shamatha retreats and his Dzogchen retreat. The thoughts/images dissolve into the substrate consciousness, the substrate consciousness dissolves into the substrate and then the break-through occurs.

 

Further, the secret rushen is that same practice the Alan Wallace teaches and guides you through. He calls it "using the space of the mind as the meditation object". Except, Alan Wallace calls it a 'shamatha practice'.

 

Instead of finding old youtubes about Alan Wallace in his earlier days, I would suggest that if you are interested (which I know you are not), you could listen to his Dzogchen retreat and see for yourself.

 

http://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

So, if you are practising the "secret rushen", and you are dissolving thoughts/images etc, you are actually practising what Alan Wallace calls a shamatha practice. (Also, note that Tenzin is calling that a preliminary practice).

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

Hey, Alwaysoff,

 

Also, note that Tenzin is calling that a preliminary practice

 

TI

 

 

No shit, rushan is a preliminary practice. Your a funny guy Christian_Ice.

Edited September 1, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Thanks for posting that quote, SOT

 

TI

 

Your guys own quote says:

 

"And so the shamatha they've practiced does not help at all.

In fact, has it not made them take birth as an animal?"

Edited September 1, 2013 by alwayson

[Seeker of Wisdom]

 

Your guys own quote says:

 

"And so the shamatha they've practiced does not help at all.

In fact, has it not made them take birth as an animal?"

Read the whole of what Milarepa said, not one quote out of context.

 

When you take a minute to read the whole song, it's very clear that Milarepa is saying the shepherd boy should achieve shamatha, and use that as a foundation for vipashyana.

 

The 'they' referred to in the bit you've quoted is 'people who achieve shamatha and stop there, thinking they don't need vipashyana to uproot the mental afflictions now shamatha has made them dormant'. So, a bit more nuanced than 'shamatha causes you to be reborn as an animal'.

 

Milarepa was using skilful means, telling Gampopa 'that shamatha and vipashyana you've got has nothing to do with your true nature', but telling someone else 'get shamatha and vipashyana in unison as a foundation for realising and expressing your true nature'.

[doc benway]

With all due respect and much love to everyone here, this seems like such a silly argument.

For those of us who feel that stability in shamatha is of value in supporting more "advanced" practices, we are blessed with the opportunity to practice it and will see its benefits for ourselves - no question about that. And the ready availability of such a powerful approach is a blessing to the world and sorely needed. Imagine if more people were skillful in tranquility and right view.

 

For those of us who do not see value in shamatha and vipassana or have already achieved a high degree of proficiency, there is no need to do it... plenty of reading and studying and other things to do if that's what brings you success. Although, most of the masters recommend a consistent diet of both practices even beyond the first contact with the natural state.

 

The Dzogchen and Mahamudra masters have consistently recommended and applied themselves to achieving shamatha and vipassana as a part of or in preparation to the "practice" of simple and direct being. This is clearly one reason why the advanced practices were secretive. Because they were usually wasted on those without the patience to first achieve skill and stability in tranquility and insight. There may be a rare person who can successfully go straight into the advanced and simplistic practice of direct being but for the majority of us, supporting practices of shamatha and vipassana greatly improve our chances of stabilizing and deepening the experience of, and the life lived from the natural state.

 

And the masters have appropriately warned us not to become too attached to the practices themselves, lest we mistake the trees for the forest, hence the cautionary language that has been quoted out of context to support the argument against those practices. This is because all methods and practices eventually have to be let go - this was Krishnamurti's highly distilled message, it is also a consistent message throughout Buddhism - "the truth is a pathless land", 'once you cross the river you no longer need the canoe', and so on.

 

It seems pretty simple.

[RongzomFan]

It seems pretty simple.

 

 

Because you think Vajrayana is the same as man-made New Age neoAdvaita.

[doc benway]

Because you think Vajrayana is the same as man-made New Age neoAdvaita.

 

I'm very impressed that you can read my thoughts.

You must be more highly attained than you let on...

 

 

Have an A-1 day.

[RongzomFan]

I'm very impressed that you can read my thoughts.

You must be more highly attained than you let on...

 

I don't have to read your thoughts. You've said as much many times before.

[doc benway]

I don't have to read your thoughts. You've said as much many times before.

 

Thank you for the lesson.

_/\_

 

And I'm very curious - who is your Dzogchen master who doesn't think shamatha or vipassana are useful on the path?

Edited September 1, 2013 by steve

[RongzomFan]

The Dzogchen and Mahamudra masters have consistently recommended and applied themselves to achieving shamatha and vipassana as a part of or in preparation to the "practice" of simple and direct being.

 

As a non-practitioner, why do you consistently put your foot in your mouth?

[Creation]

 

[an exercise in non-attachment to my own posts]

Edited September 1, 2013 by Creation

[RongzomFan]

what happened

 

that was a good post

[Simple_Jack]

Read the whole of what Milarepa said, not one quote out of context.

 

It's a possibility that quote is referring to the generation and completion stages....Just my opinion though.

[Simple_Jack]

....Mahamudra masters have consistently recommended and applied themselves to achieving shamatha and vipassana as a part of or in preparation to the "practice" of simple and direct being.

 

Mahamudra is based off of generation and completion stage [practices]. "Sutra Mahamudra" doesn't apply across the board to all sects.

[doc benway]

As a non-practitioner, why do you consistently put your foot in your mouth?

Actually, I practice a lot more than I read - that's one of the reasons I put my foot in my mouth so often.

The other reason is that I'm an ass and need to continue to work towards refining my character.

 

I'd like to respond with a question of my own. Why is it that you claim to be Buddhist but appear to be incapable or unwilling to engage in any compassionate, loving, or supportive speech? Nearly all of your interactions with others on the board are negative, disrespectful, and destructive.

 

I anticipate your typical patronizing or ad hominem response, knock yourself out.

 

Mahamudra is based off of generation and completion stage [practices]. "Sutra Mahamudra" doesn't apply across the board to all sects.

 

Yes, thanks for clarifying that. There are three major classifications of Mahamudra - Sutra, Mantra, and Essence, correct?

Nevertheless, shamatha and vipassana are important components for many schools of Mahamudra. Is that not so?

 

A few exerpts from a talk by Thrangu Rinpoche:

"There are two main aspects to meditation: tranquillity (or Shamatha) and insight (or Vipashyana) meditation. These terms are used in several spiritual traditions, but mean different things in these traditions. In fact, we could say that any spiritual tradition that has emerged from India will at some point use these terms to describe their practice of meditation. For example, in the Hindu tradition, the terms Shamatha and Vipashyana are used, but they are different from the meditation techniques which are described in the Mahamudra tradition. The reason these same terms are used by different traditions is simply that both Hinduism and the Vajrayana tradition of Buddhism arose in India, and therefore both used Sanskrit words for the types of meditation."

"The particular value of the Mahamudra approach to Shamatha and Vipashyana is that it is an approach which is easy to understand, and therefore appropriate to practice in daily life. In essence the basis of all practice of Buddha-dharma is taking hold of your mind, and by doing so, clearing away the problems which afflict your mind, and thereby allowing your good qualities to develop."

"We have to begin meditation with tranquillity, or Shamatha meditation. And the reason we have to begin with tranquillity meditation, because normally our mind is not at rest. It is agitated by regret, by misery, by anxiety, and by all kinds of thoughts which disturb us. So, the first thing we need to do, is to calm our mind down, so our mind develops a healthy stability."

 

I'll just let it go at that. Maybe I'm correct, maybe not, the endless arguments here are tiresome.

Edited September 1, 2013 by steve

[RongzomFan]

Actually, I practice a lot more than I read.

 

What is the practice of New Age neoAdvaita?

Edited September 2, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

If all paths are one, why not take up Scientology steve?

[Apech]

@Steve

 

The way I see it is this. Shamatha and vipassana are common elements in the sutra, tantra and essence approaches but are viewed differently (possibly subtly differently). But there is no doubt they feature in each stage. For instance Takpo Tashi Namgyal's "Mahamudra : the quintessence of mind and meditation" dwells in great depth on shamatha and vipassana.

 

However the understanding of what you are doing and why you are doing it is different. In the sutra stage you are taking the view that your mind is obstructed by conflcting emotions, karmic tendencies, habits and so on such that you dwell in ignorance and confusion. What is needed is to clear the mind by letting it settle and then waking up to its true nature by examining your perceptions and so on. There's a kind of path from A to B. From ignorance to knowledge (of the primordial nature of the mind).

 

In the tantra path you are positing beings who are awakened and express different aspects of the awakened mind and identifying with them (yiddams). For instance Cherezig as the expression of compassion arising from non-dual awareness. Shamatha here is just a way to open yourself to the yiddam which you then 'become'. Then you identify body, speech and mind with the 'deity' and dissolve back to the primordial nature and sit with this ... without effort ... you are 'allowing' buddha-nature if you like ... there is no path from A to B. There is just B.

 

In the essence approach even the yiddam is not necessary. You just sit with B. Here Shamatha is a tool to adjust your mind if you find it too scattered and vipassana is a tool to use when you find your mind has become too dull. they are not the 'meditation' which you return to once the adjustment of shamatha or vipassana has worked. Here the basis, the path and the result are all B. There is no difference. Sutra shamatha for instance would be an obstruction because it would reintroduce the idea that there is an occluded mind to be cleared and so on.

 

So I don't see it as a way of disposing of shamatha and vipassana but more a way reconceiving them as you progress. In reality I would guess all practitioners do a mix of the three stages unless they are very advanced indeed.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Apech

[doc benway]

I'd like to respond with a question of my own. Why is it that you claim to be Buddhist but appear to be incapable or unwilling to engage in any compassionate, loving, or supportive speech? Nearly all of your interactions with others on the board are negative, disrespectful, and destructive.

I didn't expect you to have the courage to look at this question seriously, alwayson.

 

 

 

I anticipate your typical patronizing or ad hominem response, knock yourself out.

Thanks for staying true to form, although I'm a bit disappointed, you could have done much better than this...

 

 

 

What is the practice of New Age neoAdvaita?

I don't know - please teach me.

 

 

 

If all paths are one, why not take up Scientology steve?

 

In a relative sense, all paths are unique.

In an absolute sense, is there a path that is not a manifestation of rigpa?

 

You have walked the Christian path and now a Buddhist path, and have you changed?

Are you not still the same angry and bitter person, trying to find something to ease your pain but failing?

If you want to see truth, stop looking in your books and look more closely at yourself.

It takes a lot more courage and patience, but it pays off.

 

PS - I tried to take up Scientology but Tom Cruise never returned me calls, could you give him a message for me?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Steve

 

The way I see it is this. Shamatha and vipassana are common elements in the sutra, tantra and essence approaches but are viewed differently (possibly subtly differently). But there is no doubt they feature in each stage. For instance Takpo Tashi Namgyal's "Mahamudra : the quintessence of mind and meditation" dwells in great depth on shamatha and vipassana.

 

However the understanding of what you are doing and why you are doing it is different. In the sutra stage you are taking the view that your mind is obstructed by conflcting emotions, karmic tendencies, habits and so on such that you dwell in ignorance and confusion. What is needed is to clear the mind by letting it settle and then waking up to its true nature by examining your perceptions and so on. There's a kind of path from A to B. From ignorance to knowledge (of the primordial nature of the mind).

 

In the tantra path you are positing beings who are awakened and express different aspects of the awakened mind and identifying with them (yiddams). For instance Cherezig as the expression of compassion arising from non-dual awareness. Shamatha here is just a way to open yourself to the yiddam which you then 'become'. Then you identify body, speech and mind with the 'deity' and dissolve back to the primordial nature and sit with this ... without effort ... you are 'allowing' buddha-nature if you like ... there is no path from A to B. There is just B.

 

In the essence approach even the yiddam is not necessary. You just sit with B. Here Shamatha is a tool to adjust your mind if you find it too scattered and vipassana is a tool to use when you find your mind has become too dull. they are not the 'meditation' which you return to once the adjustment of shamatha or vipassana has worked. Here the basis, the path and the result are all B. There is no difference. Sutra shamatha for instance would be an obstruction because it would reintroduce the idea that there is an occluded mind to be cleared and so on.

 

So I don't see it as a way of disposing of shamatha and vipassana but more a way reconceiving them as you progress. In reality I would guess all practitioners do a mix of the three stages unless they are very advanced indeed.

 

Nice summary Apech.

[Simple_Jack]

Nevertheless, shamatha and vipassana are important components for many schools of Mahamudra. Is that not so?

 

Not in the conventional sense. Seriously, I'm not just making this stuff up. This is from Loppon Namdrol (aka. Malcolm); brackets are mine:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=12835

 

"In general, Mahamudra entails deity yoga, [tummo, karmamudra],etc. Mahamudra is the state of realizing one's state through a yidam such as Kalacakra or the other way to realize Mahamudra is through Guru Yoga. These are the two paths of Mahamudra...

 

Yes, the four yogas are practiced alongside the two stages/guru yoga by most practitioners. The four yogas technically are part of sutra mahamudra, actually, according to how it is presented by Kongtrul. They are presented as part of Mahamudra in the five fold system of Drikung and Drukpa, but this is integrated with creation stage [i.e. generation stage] and Guru Yoga.

 

According to a personal communication to me from Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso, Sutra Mahamudra was contrived by Gampopa for those who were not ready for Tantra. In sutra mahamudra there is no empowerment and no samayas, etc. Essence Mahamudra is based on a specific type of empowerment called the descent of the wisdom vajra (CF Jnanasiddhi by Indrabhuti), and the tantric mahamudra involves the practice of the two stages [generation and completion stages]. The former is more a path of Guru Yoga, the latter, of course, the two stages. Sutra Tantra and Essence Mahamudra is a system of the Karma Kagyu, It does not exist in the other Kagyu schools. In Drukpa and Drikung, the four yogas are included as part of the Sahaja Mahamudra, but this also depends on a kind of introduction. Usually a Cakrasamvara or a Vajrayogini empowerment."

 

The path of Mahamudra is equivalent to tregcho of Dzogchen. The four yogas are basically Gampopa's rendition of Dzogchen semde's four naljors.

 

Instruction from a guru is integral to the path of Varayana.

 

I'll just let it go at that. Maybe I'm correct, maybe not, the endless arguments here are tiresome.

 

The basis for these arguments on TTB's are a result of non-practitioners and people who are generally unfamiliar with Buddhism trying to correct practitioners of buddhadharma.

 

The Dzogchen and Mahamudra masters have consistently recommended and applied themselves to achieving shamatha and vipassana as a part of or in preparation to the "practice" of simple and direct being...There may be a rare person who can successfully go straight into the advanced and simplistic practice of direct being

 

 

It's best not to conflate Neo-Advaitan concepts with the path of Buddhism considering that being (contrasted with non-being) strays into the extremes of existence/eternalism (or inherent existence if you prefer Gelug explanations) according to Buddhism.