Resting the mind in its natural state

[monktastic]

I remember Alan Wallace citing the Visuddhimagga saying that if you can't stay in first dhyana for 24 hours you haven't really attained it. What do you mean "access to it"?

 

Sorry, I mean the more technical "access concentration" (Pali upacara-samadhi). IIRC, Alan says that ideally one should attain full absorption (appana-samadhi), but if not, then at the very least, access concentration is required. See, e.g.:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=js6MaoSLa9UC&pg=PT186&lpg=PT186&dq=alan+wallace+%22access+concentration%22&source=bl&ots=1BQTLovkSQ&sig=FH2GN2O01DwJ-fmf91dgWfgBZvM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eKsrUsXFFqiQiQLJuYHQDA&ved=0CGMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=alan%20wallace%20%22access%20concentration%22&f=false

Edited September 7, 2013 by monktastic

[Apech]

I just re-read your post and I see that you said yes "I have met such" - so my point is, have those people stopped practicing?

Have they stopped looking for even deeper insight or for ways of manifesting that perfect knowing through their actions? Are they perfect humans without any flaw or occasional stumble?

I don't think so... I won't speak to legendary and historical folks but those we can touch and see.

They're still human. They've awakened and see the true nature of things and they still practice, they are still developing, and stabilizing and finding deeper ways to manifest the truths they've glimpsed until maybe one day they can manifest that truth in every waking moment and every breath. That's my meaning.

 

Hi,

 

I had to backtrack the conversation to see why we are talking about this. I think the point I was making has been misunderstood - probably because of my clumsy English. As I said before somewhere in the previous pages of this thread the way in which the practice is understood changes. At first we think we have to make a journey from a scattered and sometimes dull mine to a clear and calm one. We put some time and effort into this because of dissatisfaction with how we are. So its very much a pathway from A to B. But that pathway only has any relevance to how we understand things at that point. Later our understanding is different - if we tried to persist with the original practice we would actually create blockages. But we might have originally made statements like an 'even mind', or a 'clear mind' or a mind without thoughts ... however these lose their relevance. The even-ness or clarity we seek is like an antidote to our perceived condition ... but from the viewpoint of an awakened mind uneven-ness is not a problem, un-clarity is not a problem ... thoughts are not a problem they as perfectly natural to the mind because of going beyond what we projected as our earlier goal.

 

For instance some people say they want to clear their minds of thoughts. But thoughts are part of the mind. There's a good teaching on this from 100,000 songs of Milarepa called "A Woman's Place in the Dharma' that is worth reading.

[doc benway]

Hi,

 

I had to backtrack the conversation to see why we are talking about this. I think the point I was making has been misunderstood - probably because of my clumsy English. As I said before somewhere in the previous pages of this thread the way in which the practice is understood changes. At first we think we have to make a journey from a scattered and sometimes dull mine to a clear and calm one. We put some time and effort into this because of dissatisfaction with how we are. So its very much a pathway from A to B. But that pathway only has any relevance to how we understand things at that point. Later our understanding is different - if we tried to persist with the original practice we would actually create blockages. But we might have originally made statements like an 'even mind', or a 'clear mind' or a mind without thoughts ... however these lose their relevance. The even-ness or clarity we seek is like an antidote to our perceived condition ... but from the viewpoint of an awakened mind uneven-ness is not a problem, un-clarity is not a problem ... thoughts are not a problem they as perfectly natural to the mind because of going beyond what we projected as our earlier goal.

 

For instance some people say they want to clear their minds of thoughts. But thoughts are part of the mind. There's a good teaching on this from 100,000 songs of Milarepa called "A Woman's Place in the Dharma' that is worth reading.

Thanks for clarifying that. Sorry if I misunderstood you. Your English is fine, probably better than mine.

[Apech]

Thanks for clarifying that. Sorry if I misunderstood you. Your English is fine, probably better than mine.

 

No problem.

[RongzomFan]

I attended a one week shamatha retreat with Alan in 2006. At the time, he was insistent that the attainment of the first dhyana (or at least access to it, at the level described in the visuddhimagga) was essential for all higher practices, Dzogchen included.

 

In the Fall 2012 Dzogchen (I think) retreat he made a point regarding a question I had long been curious about: why do Tsoknyi Rinpoche and other masters not emphasize this attainment? His answer was simply that he doesn't really know why, and thinks it's strange that they would deviate from the teachings of Tsongkhapa (who, though a Gelugpa, was said to have realized Dzogchen), Dudjom Lingpa, etc.

 

If Alan Wallace said that, then that's just weird.

 

Tsongkhapa has no relationship with Dzogchen.

Edited September 7, 2013 by alwayson

[monktastic]

Let me not put any words into Alan's mouth. I should separate the issues:

 

(1) Per Alan, Tsongkhapa says that attainment of shamatha is necessary for realization of vipashyana.

(2) There's some indication that Tsongkhapa received Dzogchen teachings and affirmed their validity (though I can only find tentative sources online backing this up). I apologize for mistakenly saying that he was "said to have realized Dzogchen".

[RongzomFan]

(2) There's some indication that Tsongkhapa received Dzogchen teachings and affirmed their validity (though I can only find tentative sources online backing this up). I apologize for mistakenly saying that he was "said to have realized Dzogchen".

 

He never practiced Dzogchen. I have to go with Loppon Namdrol who says that.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3483&start=80#p45745

 

(1) Per Alan, Tsongkhapa says that attainment of shamatha is necessary for realization of vipashyana.

 

Who cares about Tsongkhapa?

[Tibetan_Ice]

This goes back to the menngagde definition of the basis (gzhi).

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/search.php?keywords=basis+lights&terms=all&author=Malcolm&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

 

Unfortunately there is very little published on this.

 

There is actually quite a bit published about this topic, if you know where to look for it.

The first comes to mind is Dudjom Lingpa.. The second is Tenzin Wangyal, then Trecko writings etc..

 

For examples:

 

THE FIVE PURE LIGHTS The most subtle dimension of the five elements is known as the “five pure lights.” In the Dzogchen tradition there are many texts of teachings about the elements. From the Zhang Zhung Nyan Gyud, the primary cycle of Dzogchen teachings in the Bön tradition, I am drawing from two main texts which go into detail about the five lights. These are The Six Lamps (Sgronma drug) and The Mirror of the Luminous Mind (‘ Od-gsal sems-kyi melong). One teaching, which is partially a story, explains how the elemental energies, though always pure in themselves, come to be perceived as substantial. It is also the story of how, in the intermediate state (bardo) between death and birth, the individual goes toward either the delusions of samsara or the freedom of nirvana. On another level, it is the description of what can be done, in any moment, to end ensnarement in karmic visions and remain in the natural state of mind. The teaching says something like this:

 

For each of us, everything begins with the primordial space, the Great Mother from which all things arise, in which all things exist, and into which all things dissolve. In this space there is movement. What causes it, no one knows. The teachings only say “the winds of karma moved.” This is the movement of the subtlest level of lung or prana, the energy that pervades infinite space without characteristics or divisions. Inseparably united with the flow of prana is the flow of primordial awareness, pure and without identity. In this pure awareness five lights arise.

 

The five lights are aspects of primordial luminosity. These are the five pure lights, the most subtle level of the elements. We talk about the light and color of the five pure lights but this is symbolic. The five pure lights are more subtle than visible light, more subtle than anything perceived by the eye, more subtle than any energy measured or perceived by any means. They are the energies from which all other energies, including visible light, arise.

 

The white or colorless light is space, the green light is air, the red light is fire, the blue light is water, and the yellow light is earth. These are the five aspects of pure luminosity, the rainbow-like energies of the single sphere of existence (tigle nyag chik).

 

If the five lights are experienced dualistically, as objects of a perceiving subject, they appear to grow more substantial. The five lights don’t become grosser, but through the distortions of dualistic vision the individual perceives them as grosser. As the elements seem to grow toward greater substantiality, they are further discriminated, and through their interactions they manifest all phenomena, including the subject and objects that make up all dualistic experience.

 

Eventually the five lights become the raw, natural physical elements and five inclusive categories of qualities belonging to external reality. They become the different dimensions of existence that are various realms in which beings with and without form exist. Internally the five lights seem to thicken and form the organs, the five branches of the body, the five fingers of each hand, the five toes of each foot, the five senses, and the five sense fields. The five lights become the five negative emotions if we remain deluded, or the five wisdoms and the five buddha families if we recognize their purity.

 

This is not a story about a creation that happened in the distant past. It is about how we live as individual beings and about ignorance and enlightenment. If the five lights are recognized as a non-dual, unceasing manifestation of the pure basis of existence (kunzhi), nirvana begins. If the five lights are perceived dualistically and thought to exist externally, as objects of a subject, samsara begins. The awareness does not become delusory or become enlightened— it remains non-dual and pure— but the qualities that arise in it can be either positive or negative. If the awareness integrates and identifies with the pure qualities, a buddha arises from the base; if with the impure, a samsaric being arises. In this moment, right now, the process is ongoing.

 

Depending on whether we integrate our immediate experience with non-dual awareness or cling to the false separation of our selves as subjects experiencing external objects and entities, we will be in the non-dual natural state or in the deluded mind.

 

Rinpoche, Tenzin Wangyal (2002-05-25). Healing with Form, Energy, and Light: The Five Elements in Tibetan Shamanism, Tantra, and Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 526-563). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

 

 

There is much more about the five lights in that book.

 

Here is from Dudjom Lingpa:

 

 

Hearing my request he replied, “Listen here, great being! Buddhas and sentient beings differ due to awareness and unawareness. The basic ground, the primordial buddha Samantabhadra, is characterized by the four kayas and five wisdoms.

 

“The empty essence is dharmakaya, the cognizant nature is sambhogakaya, the self-liberating manifest capacity is nirmanakaya, and its pervasiveness throughout all of samsara and nirvana is svabhavikakaya.

 

“Everything takes place within the openness of this basic ground, so it is the all-encompassing space known as dharmadhatu. Since it is an untainted vivid clarity, it is like a mirror. As its displays of samsara and nirvana are of equal purity, it is equality. In it, the apperceptions of knowing and perceiving are unobstructed, so it is discerning. And because it performs all actions in purity and freedom, it is all-accomplishing.

 

“The path awareness that liberates within self-existing buddhahood also actualizes the four kayas and five wisdoms present in the essential nature. The essence of awareness is all-pervading, like the continuum of space, insubstantial, inexpressible, a vast transparent clarity, a playground that is rootless and groundless and totally unelaborate, therefore it is the dharmakaya. As the nature of this awareness is naturally cognizant, it is sambhogakaya. Since the expression of its cognizant nature is unobstructed, it is nirmanakaya. Being the common ground of samsara and nirvana, it is svabhavikakaya.

 

“Having established the view of the ground, to see that samsara and nirvana are of one taste in the basic space of reality is the dharmadhatu wisdom. Not allowing emptiness to become a mindless void, but rather letting it remain a vivid, immaculate lucidity— like a spotless mirror in which anything can appear— is the mirror-like wisdom. To know that the qualities of samsara and nirvana are equal in the supreme emptiness is the wisdom of equality. To realize the expression of awareness as the unobstructed lucidity of distinctly perceiving intelligence is discerning wisdom. When awareness masters itself, the activities of both purifying and freeing are naturally perfected, which is the action of all-accomplishing wisdom.

 

“Many people, not familiar with the modes of this path of awareness just-as-it-is, take as path a passive state in which mind and awareness have not been distinguished. They are unclear about external phenomena, which they grasp at as having substance and self-existence. While inwardly they are unclear about their own body, chained to holding it to be permanent and real, they are completely gagged and bound. Even though they may attain stability in a state of unobstructed, lucid consciousness situated somewhere between these two poles, apart from creating the merit to be born in the two higher realms, they will not attain a state of liberation and omniscience and are therefore not flawless.

 

“Understanding that all phenomena within samsara and nirvana are of one taste in the nature of suchness (dharmata), just as it is, is the intelligence of knowing things as they are. When abiding in the state of awareness, the unimpeded, self-existing, all-cognizing consciousness is the intelligence of knowing all that there is. Although this awareness is unimpeded, just like a drop of mercury falling on the ground, it does not get entangled with objects.

 

“The mind regards samsara and nirvana as having independent natures, it views appearances as substantial entities, and it is unaware of the actual nature of the basic ground. In this mind, thoughts come and go and become entangled with objects, like a drop of water falling on dry earth.

 

“When the true face of the pure fundamental buddha, who is master of the basic ground, was obscured by unawareness, all the kayas and wisdoms that comprise the natural luminosity of the basic ground dissolved into this inner radiance. This radiance shifted outwardly to external radiance, in the form of five-colored light that unfolded as the play of the five elements in the following manner.

 

“When the dharmadhatu wisdom was obscured by unawareness, the external radiance appears as blue light; this is the essence of space that is called the inner or major element. However, with the belief that it is real, attachment to this light as a substance develops, and it appears as an impure phenomenon: the external or minor element known as space. “When the mirror-like wisdom was obscured by unawareness and dissolves into the inner radiance, the external radiance appears as white light. This light is the inner or major element known as the essence of water. However, with the belief that it is real, attachment to this light as a substance develops, and it appears as an impure phenomenon: the external or minor element known as water.

 

“When the equality wisdom was obscured by unawareness and dissolves into the inner radiance, the external radiance appears as yellow light. This light is the inner or major element known as the essence of earth. However, with the belief that it is real, attachment to this light as a substance develops, and it appears as an impure phenomenon: the external or minor element known as earth.

 

“When the discerning wisdom was obscured by unawareness and dissolves into inner radiance, the external radiance appears as red light. This light is the inner or major element known as the essence of fire. However, with the belief that it is real, attachment to this light as a substance develops, and it appears as an impure phenomenon: the external or minor element known as fire.

 

“When the all-accomplishing wisdom was obscured by unawareness and dissolves into inner radiance, the external radiance appears as green light. This light is the inner or major element known as the essence of wind. However, with the belief that it is real, attachment to this light as a substance develops, and it appears as an impure phenomenon: the external or minor element known as wind.

 

“Due to the luminosity of these five lights, phenomena of various colors and of the five elements appear uninterruptedly.

 

“The way in which the five basic delusions arise from the function of these obscured wisdoms is as follows: When the basic ground is obscured by unawareness, it becomes the all-ground with attributes, which is a blank void like space where nothing perceives or appears. It is similar to the state of deep sleep or the loss of consciousness upon fainting. To become dispersed in this state is the nature of stupidity, the vast fog of unawareness. In this state the karma prana of the kalpa stirs; this is the nature of envy. The functioning of this karma prana causes clarity to emerge from the emptiness; this is the all-ground consciousness, which abides as the nature of anger. From this comes the clinging to the mere feeling of self as ‘I’; this is the defiled mental consciousness, which abides as the nature of pride. From this, the mental faculty arises, which constitutes the ability for phenomena to appear in the blank void of the basic ground and which brings forth an aspect of lucidity. This abides as the nature of desire.

 

“All five of these natures arise from the internal radiance as external radiance. The nature of these five poisons spits out a horde of afflicted thoughts, like sparks from a fire.

 

UNCULTIVATED BUDDHAHOOD An excerpt from An Instruction in Realizing the Natural Face of Dzogchen Dudjom Lingpa

Kunsang, Erik Pema (2012-10-16). Perfect Clarity: A Tibetan Buddhist Anthology of Mahamudra and Dzogchen (p. 79). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

 

 

And this is from "A Spacious Path to Freedom, Karma Chagme, translated by Alan Wallace: (in the practice of ati yoga).

 

 

The Natural Liberation of Seeing: the Identification of the Transitional Process of Reality-itself among the teachings of Orgyen states:

 

In the morning and the evening when the sky and the rays of the sun are clear, all the students are to gaze at the sun while squinting their eyes, or they may have their gaze adjusted [by their mentor]. Children of good breeding, this essence of the sun is pure and clear without contamination. Likewise, know that the Dharmakaya, with its twofold purity, is originally pure and without contamination. The radiance of the sun possesses the five colors of the rainbow; it is not created by anyone, but is self-luminous. Likewise, know that from the originally pure radiance of the Dharmakaya there appears the spontaneous Sambho-gakaya, possessing the five definite attributes, bearing the five spheres of rainbow light, an undrawn body mandala of the nature of clear light. Recognize its possession of the five colors of rainbow light as the nature of the five families of all the Buddhas.

 

...

 

- A wide variety of appearances or visions may occur in this practice. They will not be the same for each person. People come with their own superior, medium, or inferior capacities, in accordance with which these visions arise. Of course, if you don't practice, no visions will occur. While the manifold appearances of the Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya are mentioned as being distinct, in essence, they are indivisible with reality-itself.

 

- Introduction to the shafts of sun rays: When the sky is limpid and the rays of the sun are bright, the students are to gaze at the sun while squinting their eyes, so that the rays of the sun appear like aligned weapons, like parallel spears, and like parallel strings of yarn. That is like the rays of light in the transitional process of reality-itself, which seem like a downpour of weapons penetrating into oneself. Those are not weapons, but are clear rays of primordial wisdom. Without being frightened of them, recognize them as self-appearing. If these appearances of five-colored lights are not recognized, they are the five poisons. - When you actually experience the transitional process of reality-itself, it seems as if a multitude of weapons are penetrating into you, and you may be very frightened, feeling that you will be annihilated. However, if you recognize their nature, you will see them as displays of primordial wisdom. You will recognize them as your own appearances, and, with that recognition, you will be liberated from them. If you are not able to recognize them as displays of primordial wisdom and as your own appearances, this experience will be like having a nightmare.

 

- If the five lights are recognized, they are the five families of Buddhas. The dark blue light is Vajrasattva; the white light is Vairocana; the yellow light is Ratnasambhava; the red light is Amitabha; and the green light is Amoghasiddhi. If they are not recognized, they are the five aggregates. The dark blue light is the aggregate of consciousness; the white light is the aggregate of form; the yellow light is the aggregate of feeling; the red light is the aggregate of recognition; and the green light is the aggregate of compositional factors.

 

- Moreover, if the dark blue light is not recognized, it is the poison of hatred, the white light is delusion, the yellow light is pride, the red light is attachment, and the green light is jealousy.

 

- If the reality of the five lights is realized, they are the five consorts. The dark blue light is Akasadhatvi§vari; the white light is Buddhalocana; the yellow light is the supreme consort Mamaki; the red light is the supreme consort Pandaravasini; and the green light is Samayatara. If they are not recognized, they are the five elements. The dark blue light is the element of space; the white light is the element of water; the yellow light is the element of earth; the red light is the element of fire; and the green light is the element of air. If the five lights are known, they are the five families. The dark blue light is the vajra family; the white light is the sugata family; the yellow light is the ratna family; the red light is the padma family; and the green light is the karma family. If they are not known, they are the five elemental vital energies. The dark blue..

 

Karma Chagme. A Spacious Path to Freedom: Practical Instructions on the Union of Mahamudra and Atiyoga (Kindle Locations 2333-2370). Kindle Edition.

 

 

I've come across more writings about the five lights that manifest as pure or impure five lights than just those three..

 

Edited September 7, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jetsun]

He never practiced Dzogchen. I have to go with Loppon Namdrol who says that.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3483&start=80#p45745

 

 

Who cares about Tsongkhapa?

 

Who cares about Loppon Namdrol?

[monktastic]

I see I have started a sidetrack regarding Tsongkhapa and Dzogchen. That was not my intention, though I will note that Loppon-la says this in the same thread:

 

Tsongkhapa never taught Dzogchen. The incident in question is when he was visiting a Nyingma master who had a vision of Vajrapani, and in that during that time, Tsongkhapa asked whether Dzogchen was authentic and Vajrapani replied that it was.

 

So Vajrapani told Tsongkhapa that Dzogchen is authentic, but his own view tended to align more with the Sarma schools. Okay.

 

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[RongzomFan]

Who cares about Loppon Namdrol?

 

You mean a guy who has received such a ridiculous amount of top teachings from the top masters in the world and translates Tibetan.

 

Me.

 

So Vajrapani told Tsongkhapa that Dzogchen is authentic

 

via another lama as intermediary

Edited September 8, 2013 by alwayson

[C T]

I think in awakening you see things as they really are. Phenomena as empty, samsara as empty, nirvana as empty ... if ignorance is destroyed at the root then there is no need for calmness, even-ness, or insight practice.

Yes, but how does one awaken to the point of seeing things as they really are?

 

Anyway, since all things are empty, where is this ignorance to be found, where is the need to destroy it, and where is its root?

 

In my post, 'an evened mind' was a reference to having reached the point of complete and unceasing equanimity, which is what all buddhas have (supposedly). For me, thats an ideal, a reminder to keep practicing, but for one who have attained to the lofty heights of union of wisdom and compassion, its effortless. Why is it effortless? I think its from the final realization of sunyata.

[doc benway]

In my post, 'an evened mind' was a reference to having reached the point of complete and unceasing equanimity, which is what all buddhas have (supposedly). For me, thats an ideal, a reminder to keep practicing, but for one who have attained to the lofty heights of union of wisdom and compassion, its effortless. Why is it effortless? I think its from the final realization of sunyata.

 

།ཆོས་རྣམས་མ་ལུས་གཉིས་མེད་པའི།

།རང་རིག་བྱང་ཆུབ་སེམས་ཉིད་དོ།

 

One's knowledge of the non-duality of all phenomena is bodhicitta

 

-Vajrasattvamāyājālaguhyasarvādarśa-nāma-tantra

[Seeker of Wisdom]

You mean a guy who has received such a ridiculous amount of top teachings from the top masters in the world and translates Tibetan.

Oh. Just like Alan Wallace. Yet you don't care what he says.

[RongzomFan]

Oh. Just like Alan Wallace. Yet you don't care what he says.

 

 

First off, I'm not the one disregarding Alan Wallace.

Edited September 8, 2013 by alwayson

[Creation]

Sorry, I mean the more technical "access concentration" (Pali upacara-samadhi). IIRC, Alan says that ideally one should attain full absorption (appana-samadhi), but if not, then at the very least, access concentration is required.

Hmmm, access concentration is a term unique to Theravada commentaries, and the nine stages culminating in "attaining shamatha" is found in the work of Asanga, so presumably originates in the Sarvastivada.

[monktastic]

You can see here how Alan distinguishes the "attainment of shamatha" from the "attainment of the first dhyana" (i.e., samadhi). He considers the first to be equivalent to the Theravadin access concentration:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=6BD-dS92qM4C&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=%22access+to+the+first+dhyana%22&source=bl&ots=wwbcjSAEcp&sig=PXIIsCseH8TldYC4xQAExM3_SJo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=usssUuTLEOHeiAKehICYDg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22access%20to%20the%20first%20dhyana%22&f=false

 

AFAIR, he considers only the former necessary.

[Creation]

You can see here how Alan distinguishes the "attainment of shamatha" from the "attainment of the first dhyana" (i.e., samadhi). He considers the first to be equivalent to the Theravadin access concentration:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=6BD-dS92qM4C&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=%22access+to+the+first+dhyana%22&source=bl&ots=wwbcjSAEcp&sig=PXIIsCseH8TldYC4xQAExM3_SJo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=usssUuTLEOHeiAKehICYDg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22access%20to%20the%20first%20dhyana%22&f=false

 

AFAIR, he considers only the former necessary.

Thanks.

[RongzomFan]

http://www.thlib.org/collections/texts/jiats/#!jiats=/01/germano/b8/

[Tibetan_Ice]

You mean a guy who has received such a ridiculous amount of top teachings from the top masters in the world and translates Tibetan.

 

Me.

 

Alwaysoff, if you care so much about Malcolm, and what he says (yet you say you don't care about shamatha), why not look at what Malcolm said about shamatha:

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=702&start=80

 

Malcolm wrote:

If you have not actually recognized the nature of the mind, just resting is just shamatha, and maybe just resting is just wasting your time if you do not have stable shamatha.

...

For how long are you able to sit in one place in a one-pointed state?

Sounds to me like Malcolm is pointing to the necessity of 'stable shamatha'.

[RongzomFan]

Sounds to me like Malcolm is pointing to the necessity of 'stable shamatha'.

 

Nope. Namdrol has said many times the only prerequisites are transmission and rushan.

 

And read what he actually said.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Nope. Namdrol has said many times the only prerequisites are transmission and rushan.

 

And read what he actually said.

 

I did not say it was a prerequisite but that Malcolm recognizes shamatha as being important.

And yes I read the whole thread. Did you?

[RongzomFan]

I did not say it was a prerequisite but that Malcolm recognizes shamatha as being important.

 

No, just the opposite.

 

 

"If you have not actually recognized the nature of the mind, just resting is just shamatha"

 

 

If you have recognized the nature of the mind, resting in that knowledge is trekcho.

 

If you have not recognized the nature of the mind, resting the mind is just shamatha.

Edited September 23, 2013 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

No, just the opposite.

 

 

"If you have not actually recognized the nature of the mind, just resting is just shamatha"

 

 

If you have recognized the nature of the mind, resting in that knowledge is trekcho.

 

If you have not recognized the nature of the mind, resting the mind is just shamatha.

For an educated person, you need a lesson in English.

A sentence begins with a capital letter and ends in a period.

You cannot take parts of sentences and forget about the rest, because doing so is taking it out of context.

Context is very important in a sentence.

Read the last part of Malcolm's sentence..

Here it is again:

 

 

If you have not actually recognized the nature of the mind, just resting is just shamatha, and maybe just resting is just wasting your time if you do not have stable shamatha.

 

In other words, the last part of the sentence is saying "if you do not have stable shamatha just resting is just wasting your time."

He did not say, as you conveniently cut out the word "just", "If you have not recognized the nature of the mind, resting the mind is just shamatha".

Your sentence diminishes the emphasis of the sentence to in fact denigrate and reduce the term 'shamatha'. There is quite a difference between 'just resting is just shamatha' and "resting the mind is just shamatha".

No charge for the English lesson..

Then, you say " resting in that knowledge is trekcho".

How does one 'rest in knowledge'? Bad choice of words.

You rest in the Natural State. But if you haven't achieved shamatha, good luck with that. Your mind will come bouncing back and literally drag you away from the Natural State.

STABILITY!!!

From

Practices from the Zhang-Zhung Nyan Gyud

as transmitted orally by

Lopon Tenzin Namdak

 

What differentiates these hallucinations from the Thödgal visions is that

the latter arise when we are in contemplation, resting in the Natural State

of Rigpa. For this reason, Thegchod or remaining in the state must first

become stabilized before we can practice Thödgal. Otherwise, there is the

danger of becoming attached to the visions which arise. And entering into

judgement, we then become even more caught up in Samsara, instead of

realizing liberation from delusion.

 

 

 

However, being that this quote is from the Bon tradition, the terminology is somewhat different. But there you have it. Pure Bon Dzogchen practice.

 

I have been in the "Natural State" five times now, without transmission and without a guru. I am one of the lucky ones, or perhaps I worked real hard all my life to achieve it. Now I am working on stabilizing it.

 

Here is some more from Lopon Tenzin Namdak (who I am eternally grateful for, for pointing out that the state that I have accomplished is in fact the "Natural State".) :

 

 

Then the signs of progress will arise from our zhine (zhi-gnas) or śamatha

practice. When the zhine develops naturally, then lhagthong or vipaśyanā

will develop simultaneously. There is no special practice for this, but zhine

will develop naturally. So we will find that we are able to remain in the

Natural State for a long time. If we do this, then gradually thoughts will

arise less and less because our Rigpa has become more stable. Then we

will experience fewer doubts because our Rigpa is more clear. Then our

thoughts will be like clouds which dissolve into the sky, so that the sky

becomes clear and unobstructed. These thoughts do not go anywhere else

other then the Natural State. They come from the Natural State and they

dissolve again into the Natural State. It is like very pure water in which

we can see reflections. There will not be many thoughts to disturb us. This

is kun-ghzi rang-byung gnas-pa, a self-originated state of calm. Then our

dark retreat will become filled with light naturally. This is not because of

our eyes, but it seems to us that we can see outside the retreat. That is a sign

of the balancing of our elements. Then we experience mi rtog-pa, a state

without thoughts, at times. These are nyams or experiences in meditation of

clarity and of thoughtlessness. There is nothing to do about this - it happens

naturally.

This practice is called Thegchod (khregs-chod); it is not Thödgal (thodrgal).

This Thegchod section is the foundation for the Dzogchen view. Thus,

before practicing Thödgal, our Thegchod must become stable.

 

 

Notice that he too used the term "śamatha".

 

Some more from Lopon Tenzin Namdak:

 

 

But here, in the sky practice, it is necessary to unite and integrate the

three spaces (dbyings gsum). The external space (phyi dbyings) is the sky,

the internal space (nang dbyings) are the empty channels, and the secret

space (gsang dbyings) is the emptiness of the Natural State. How do we

unite and integrate these three? Gaze into the empty sky and keep the mind

in the Natural State. The Kati nerve is a tube like hollow channel. By means

of the wisdom winds (ye-shes kyi rlung), the Natural State (rig-pa) comes

up through the channel from the heart - but this is not ordinary psychic

energy (rlung). The eyes are kept fixed on empty space. We can no longer

distinguish external and internal space. We do not have to do anything

special, just keep in the Natural State and be stable in this. There is no

visualizing anything or thinking anything. By just keeping in the Natural

State we integrate internal and external space.

 

When we feel that our Natural State is stable, then recite or chant something.

We may even be able to do something with our thoughts and this will

not disturb the Natural State. But if we do these things before our Natural

State becomes stable, then we will lose our contemplation. When making

a retreat, divide the day into four sessions. In between sessions we should

do other practices such as mantra recitation and accumulating merit. This

is the way to proceed with the practice for integrating the three spaces.

 

According to the gZer-bu, just keep breathing normally and do not

change anything nor do anything special. To do so will disturb our energy

(rlung) and the stability of our Natural State. Breathing should be even

and level as much as possible. Moreover, when we are gazing into the sky,

do not blink, but remain fixated in space. In this way, the visions will not

be impeded nor stopped and our Natural State blends with space and there

is no separation nor distinction between external and internal space. In this

situation it is much easier to recognize the Natural State. Keep the posture

and do not move overly much. If the body is unmoving, then the nādīs or

channels will not move. If the nādls do not move, then the winds or energies

(rlung, vāyu) will not shake and then the mind will be easier to control. Our

thoughts (rnam-rtog) are always linked with these internal winds (rlung).

 

This represents an important method: the Natural State (rig-pa) comes

up out of the heart, moves along the Kati nerve and goes out through the

eyes. This Natural State shines through the eyes, that is, it comes up through

the channels and goes out through the eyes, although actually the Natural

State is immovable. Between our internal space and external space beyond,

we have a window or door. If we did not have a door in our house, we

would not easily be able to go in or out. Space itself is immovable, but

there is a door which connects the exterior to the interior. Thus there is an

apparent contradiction in saying that the Natural State moves up through

the channels and comes out the eyes. The physical eye does not see the

Natural State which is like space - the eyes only see colors, shapes and so

on. The Kati is connected with the eyes, but it is not the ordinary optic nerve.

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[RongzomFan]

Believe what you wish.

Edited September 24, 2013 by alwayson