Resting the mind in its natural state

Tibetan_Ice · August 30, 2013

fine i'll leave this thread. samatha does not interest me in the slightest.

Alwaysoff,

If you are not interested in shamatha, then you have no interest or understanding of Dzogchen.

Shamatha plays an integral role in Dzogchen, although it may be used a little differently..

This is from one of your 'Hero' books:

For example, there is a Dzogchen approach to the practices of calming the mind, zhine (Sanskrit: shamatha), and insight, lagtong (Sanskrit: vipassana). This approach is found in the Nature of Mind Series (semde) of teachings. The introduction to this fundamental knowingness is very precise in the semde; one could say that it happens gradually. The reason that it is so precise is that it works step-by-step with the process of getting to know some fundamental aspects of our mind. It sets up a definite strategy about how we can come to experience ourselves beyond reified dualism. In this case then we must first know what this dualism is. In the semde one learns about it in two ways. The first is by direct confrontation through the power of the teacher’s introduction and/or through exercises one does oneself. The second is by thorough familiarization through trying to control one’s mind according to the traditional practices of calm and insight.

In the Dzogchen semde, one does not practice calm and insight for their own sake, as one does in other paths, but to reveal the inherent reification of subject and object in the effort of the mind to control and analyze itself. To practice them for their own sake means to progress gradually on the path by means of the experience and understanding these methods bring. To practice the nongradual path means to set about undercutting this inherent reification right from the start, but this does not mean one abandons all calm and insight. Rather, it means that one comes to recognize that these states are intrinsic aspects of our fundamental knowingness, and one does not have to strive after them. The subject, who strives to control the objects of his or her own experience through techniques of meditation, is a mental representation, an image. When one sees this, one can begin to relax into another level of experience in which the object of meditation loses its power to disturb or distract.

Padmasambhava (2011-07-20). Secret Teachings of Padmasambhava: Essential Instructions on Mastering the Energies of Life (pp. 75-76). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

RongzomFan · August 30, 2013

Alwaysoff,

If you are not interested in shamatha, then you have no interest or understanding of Dzogchen.

says a believer in Jesus Christ.

Simple_Jack · August 30, 2013

Alwaysoff,

If you are not interested in shamatha, then you have no interest or understanding of Dzogchen.

Shamatha plays an integral role in Dzogchen, although it may be used a little differently..

This is from one of your 'Hero' books:

It seems the text you quoted is confirming Anderson's post above, not that samatha and vipasyana (in the conventional sense) are integral to Dzogchen.

Creation · August 31, 2013

I know exactly what Seeker of Tao is saying for I too have studied Alan Wallace extensively, and if you don't have shamatha, you ain't got nothing.

Alan Wallace teaches his own blend of Theravada, Nyingma, and Gelug. I respect him quite a bit, don't get me wrong, but I don't take his writings as the representing the traditional Nyingma view or the ultimate authrotiy on Dzogchen for that matter.

For example,

If you are not interested in shamatha, then you have no interest or understanding of Dzogchen.

This is just not true. The text you quoted was referring to Dzogchen Semde. You had a preconceived view of Shamatha being integral to Dzogchen from Allan Wallace, so you read that in to this text. Shamatha is integral to Dzogchen Semde, but not necessarily all Dzogchen. Wallace teaches to use Shamatha and Vipashyana to get you to the point where you can practice Trekchod. That is one way of doing things. There are also others.

Namkhai Norbu explains all three series (semde, longde, and mennagde) in his works, and if you have received transmission you can get books on how to practice each. From what I can tell, he focused more on Semde (four yogas, one of which is shamatha) more when he first started teaching in the West, now he emphasizes different practices.

Tibetan_Ice · August 31, 2013

Alan Wallace teaches his own blend of Theravada, Nyingma, and Gelug. I respect him quite a bit, don't get me wrong, but I don't take his writings as the representing the traditional Nyingma view or the ultimate authrotiy on Dzogchen for that matter.

For example,

This is just not true. The text you quoted was referring to Dzogchen Semde. You had a preconceived view of Shamatha being integral to Dzogchen from Allan Wallace, so you read that in to this text. Shamatha is integral to Dzogchen Semde, but not necessarily all Dzogchen. Wallace teaches to use Shamatha and Vipashyana to get you to the point where you can practice Trekchod. That is one way of doing things. There are also others.

Namkhai Norbu explains all three series (semde, longde, and mennagde) in his works, and if you have received transmission you can get books on how to practice each. From what I can tell, he focused more on Semde (four yogas, one of which is shamatha) more when he first started teaching in the West, now he emphasizes different practices.

Hi Creation,

Well, lets take a look at some other sources, just for further clarification..

THE DZOGCHEN PRELIMINARIES

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

There are two arrangements for the Dzogchen preliminary practices. The sequence in The Light of Wisdom, Lamrim Yeshe Nyingpo, is slightly different from the order in the Triyig Yeshe Lama and the Neluk Rangjung. In those texts, the practices are called the outer, inner, and secret rushen. The outer is the enactment of the experiences of beings of the six realms. The inner is the purification of the six syllables within one’s body. The secret is the vajra posture; the four speech yogas; the examination of the coming, staying, and going of thoughts; resting in naturalness; and sustaining freshness. According to The Light of Wisdom, the vajra posture, the four speech yogas, examining the coming, staying, and going of thoughts, resting in naturalness; and sustaining freshness comprise the preliminaries for Trekchö. Only the preliminaries for Tögal, the enactment of the experiences of beings of the six realms and the purification of the six syllables, are named rushen.

In the past, Vimalamitra used to practice the rushen six months out of every year on Vulture’s Peak of Rajgir. He spent half the year on this practice. Attaining the rainbow body actually comes down to the preliminaries. “The preliminaries are the vital point,” it is said. This is probably because all the habitual patterns and obscurations are purified through the preliminaries. The Ati Yoga practices of separating samsara and nirvana are extremely powerful and purifying. The closer one gets to mind, the greater the blessings get and the more profound the teachings become.

You can begin with the practices of separating the three doors. The first is the vajra posture for the body. Next are the four speech yogas: sealing, developing strength, making pliant, and taking to the road. After that you practice the examination of the coming, staying, and going of thoughts. Finally, there is resting in naturalness and sustaining freshness.

According to Dzogchen, unfabricated shamatha begins when you remain in the natural state after you have resolved that mind is without a place where it comes from, abides, or goes to. After that, the practice of sustaining freshness is to mingle this naturalness with your daily activities. You engage in the path of action, not moving away from the natural state, free from both distraction and fixation. Most people, even if they are undistracted, still fixate and identify objects: “This is a carpet, this is a window,” and so on— they are continuously fixating or thinking. But, when distracted, you are completely unaware and do not notice what is being thought of; you are totally dissipated. It is said that on the path of distraction, Mara’s robbers lie in ambush.

If you have recognized awareness, there is absolutely no point in being distracted. Once you have recognized awareness, the most important point is not to wander. It does not help anything to think, “Oh, I am undistracted, so why should I look to see whether I am distracted or not? To check is just fixation, so there is no need to look.” If you think like that, then everything is lost. Mindfulness is lost.

Sometimes students might wonder whether the practitioner is introduced to the essence at the time of resting in naturalness and sustaining freshness. If one practices these correctly, then resting in naturalness is remaining in awareness, and sustaining freshness is not losing its continuity during any activity. In the Mahamudra system of shamatha and vipashyana, the first steps are called one-pointedness and simplicity. In one-pointedness, one mainly practices shamatha; in simplicity, mainly vipashyana. In both of these, there is still some involvement in conceptual mind. The practice of Dzogchen is a bit different. Resting in naturalness refers to shamatha and sustaining freshness to vipashyana. However, they are not called shamatha and vipashyana here, as they are in the Mahamudra system. If they were, there would be some concepts involved. But from the very beginning, the Dzogchen practice is without concepts, without conceptual mind. So why shouldn’t the essence be introduced from the very first?

You might ask, “How come the Three Words Striking the Vital Point are placed afterward?” There is nothing wrong with this arrangement. The three vital points are under the rubric of the view, whereas resting in naturalness and sustaining freshness are preliminaries. In the Dzogchen system, shamatha and vipashyana are called preliminaries. To reiterate, resting in naturalness means nonfabrication, and sustaining freshness means not losing the continuity of naturalness. If one has been introduced to the essence in Dzogchen without naturalness, one won’t be able to accomplish anything. There is a saying about this in Kham: “The inside is showing from outside.” If the door is open, then even if you are standing outside, you can still see the innermost part of the room with all the images there. Although naturalness is placed as a preliminary according to the sequence of chapters, it does not mean that one should abandon it and try to get to something higher or more profound. The essence is being introduced because there is a use for it in the very beginning. If one hasn’t been introduced, it is still possible to get the teachings on the three vital points and not recognize, isn’t it?

In short, one is introduced to the nonfabrication, to the naturalness that in general refers to the shamatha and then vipashyana. It is said that sometimes the preliminaries are more profound than the main practice. Somebody who is going to be introduced will have recognized already at this point. If one is somebody who is supposed to recognize, the view is quite remarkable. There is a tradition of pointing it out right away. Sometimes you hear strange stories about unusual circumstances in which a student recognized mind-essence. If one has the karmic potential, recognition doesn’t always fit the traditional sequence. There are some people who are introduced during the preliminaries. Resting in naturalness and sustaining freshness belong to the preliminaries in Dzogchen, whereas the main part is the Three Words Striking the Vital Point.

Adapted from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, unpublished teachings, and his introduction to The Light of Wisdom, Vol. IV (Boudhanath: Rangjung Yeshe Publications, 2001), “Endnotes.”

Tulku Rinpoche Urgyen (2011-12-13). Quintessential Dzogchen: Confusion Dawns as Wisdom (p. 134). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

Again we see the idea that without shamatha (naturalness) you won't accomplish much. That is my point. That is what not only Alan Wallace is saying but many others as well. We are playing crappy semantic games here.

From Alan Wallace's "Stilling the Mind" which is a subset of Dudjom Lingpa's teachings:

Padmasambhava declares: “Without genuine shamatha arising in one’s mindstream, even if pristine awareness is pointed out, it may become nothing more than an object of intellectual understanding; one may be left simply giving lip service to the view, and there is the danger that one may succumb to dogmatism. Thus the root of all meditative states depends upon this, so do not be introduced to pristine awareness too soon, but practice until there occurs a fine experience of stability.”

Wallace, B. Alan (2011-08-23). Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence (p. 134). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

And Dudjom Lingpa is what exactly? Therevada, Nyingma, Gelug?

Dudjom Lingpa (1835–1904)^[1] was a known meditation master, visionary, terton of the Nyingma tradition of Mantrayana and a Dzogchen master of the modern era of principal importance (particularly in the area of 'refining perception' or Nang Jang) at his time

And Padmasambhava is what?

I do not recall Alan Wallace ever teaching anything about Gelug. He does mention the school once, in one of his books, but Alan Wallace does not teach mantra.

Having said that, is it possible to achieve shamatha by way of the stage of generation? Yes, but how many actually do it? The shamatha part of the stage of generation comes when you are sitting quietly and stabilizing in pure vision and divine pride. In the Gelug tradition, in three-year retreat, you spend almost all your time doing mantras, hundreds of thousands of mantras. Will you achieve shamatha while doing a mantra? Not likely. It wasn’t intended for that. It is similar in the Kagyü and Nyingma three-year retreats. There you spend a lot of time engaging in a wide variety of practices, starting with months on end devoted to the preliminary practices. During the course of the three years you will certainly engage in generation-stage practice and various completion-stage practices such as tummo. But how much of the time are you devoting to tuning your mind through the practice of shamatha? Not much. Yet Düdjom Lingpa has already told us twice now that shamatha is “indispensable” and “critical.” So if people are settling for fleeting stability, that means they’re not taking such advice very seriously.

Wallace, B. Alan (2011-08-23). Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence (p. 122). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

So, having not heard much about the Gelug in any of Alan Wallace's books or podcasts, if you have some evidence, please share it.

Again, it is mentioned, "Yet Düdjom Lingpa has already told us twice now that shamatha is “indispensable” and “critical".

Wait, there is more:

In the Dzogchen context it is sometimes said that stillness is not absolutely necessary. This is only meant for the person of the highest capacity; it is not meant for everybody. It is not a general Dzogchen teaching to dispense with shamatha, not at all. In Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and the Middle Way, it is never taught that you don’t need shamatha; it is only the above-mentioned shortcoming of shamatha that needs to be avoided.

Tulku Rinpoche Urgyen (2011-12-13). Quintessential Dzogchen: Confusion Dawns as Wisdom (p. 151). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

Still think I have a preconceived notion of what shamatha is from studying Alan Wallace?

You claim that "Wallace teaches to use Shamatha and Vipashyana to get you to the point where you can practice Trekchod." Well, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche said (quoted in dark green above) "and sustaining freshness comprise the preliminaries for Trekchö."

He said the same thing, and he is considered to be one of the greatest Dzogchen masters of our time. Also, Alan Wallace has said a few times that shamatha can take you right to pristine awareness so it is not unheard of, and is not necessarily a stepping stone to Trekchod. I don't even know if your supposition is accurate.

So, I stand by my statement. If you don't understand the theory behind shamatha in the different contexts, you don't really understand Dzogchen. The statement was in reference to Alwaysoff's statement: "samatha does not interest me in the slightest."

Tibetan_Ice · August 31, 2013

When one discovers their own rigpa there are no distinctions to be made.

Is not like you discover rigpa and then there is something left outside of it or something more to discover , something more deeper, open, pervading...

But one should be aware that recognizing their rigpa doesnt mean realizing rigpa.

You only realize rigpa when the infinite attributes of that state of knowledge have been actualized

In practice there is only one rigpa to be discovered .

And that is all one should know.

As far as my practice and understanding is concerned Allan Wallace is unnecessary.

Here is yet another reference to a diminuitive state of rigpa:

Once more, it is not enough to recognize the nature of mind as being empty and cognizant. We have to train in perfecting its strength. The training is to recognize again and again. The moment we recognize undivided empty cognizance, that is rigpa itself. But it is not fully grown— it is not an adult state of rigpa. The level of recognition we are at now is called baby rigpa. It needs to grow up, because at present it is not capable of conducting itself or functioning fully. We need to grow to the level of a human who has “developed the strength,” who has reached the age of seventeen, eighteen, or nineteen, and has become independent and can take care of himself or herself. That is stability. For that to happen, we need to train repeatedly. That is essential!

Tulku Rinpoche Urgyen (2011-12-13). Quintessential Dzogchen: Confusion Dawns as Wisdom (p. 237). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

So, your use of the terminology, "recognizing their rigpa doesnt mean realizing rigpa", is just a play on words. I've not seen that distinction in any teachings. That is fine, although I find it somewhat confusing. I like the reference to 'baby rigpa' better, because who is to say what the difference between "recognizing" and "realizing" is. Where did you get that terminology anyway?

Creation · August 31, 2013

Alan Wallace was ordained by the Dalai Lama, ie. Gelug order. Long before "The Attention Revolution" he transcribed a Gelug Lama's Shamatha instructions:

www.amazon.com/How-Practice-Shamatha-Meditation-Cultivation/dp/155939384X/

Also, I am not saying Alan Wallace made anything up without lineage precedent, I don't think he would do that. As you point out, what he is teaching comes from Dudjom Tersar. But there are many actively practiced Terma tradtions, and all I'm saying is that maybe Alan Wallce likes that one because it fits with the emphasis on Shamatha that he already had before he started practicing Dzogchen.

Speculation aside, I still maintain that there are authentic Dzogchen teachers who do not emphasize intense Shamatha practice.

But I'll stop trying to pontificate to you.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Creation

C T · August 31, 2013

excerpt from Dudjom Lingpa's 'The Vajra Essence':

"The experience of the union of tranquil stillness (samatha) and true seeing (vipassana) is clear and pristine, radiating but non-conceptual. These four are called abiding in evenness having the four characteristics. Since this is free from the five skandhas, not establishing the essential of shape and color is freedom from the skandha of form; not having attachments to all kinds of experiences is freedom from the skandha of feeling; being free from the aim of distinctions is freedom from the skandha of perception; having no mental motivation is freedom from the skandha of intention; and not grasping at objective appearances is freedom from the skandha of consciousness."

According to the few Dzogchen teachings i have loosely received, its been mentioned many times by as many teachers that focus on samatha and vipassana ought to be evenly laid. Only then can 'the experience of the union of tranquil stillness and true seeing' arise, as evidenced from the advice of Dudjom Lingpa above.

Commenting on the above passage, Thinley Norbu Rinpoche said:

"In this way, if one abides correctly in equanimity that is free from the five skandhas, there is freedom from the mind of the three realms. When sustaining in awareness while not distracted with desire, there is freedom from the mind of the god realm of desire. When sustaining in clarity while not grasping at form, there is freedom from the mind of the god realm of form. When sustaining in conceptionlessness while appearances of objects are unobscured, there is freedom from the mind of the god realm of formlessness. This is said by all sublime scholars and accomplished practitioners of the past."

Alan Wallace led a few retreats based on 'The Vajra Essence'. In this clip he clearly gave the gist of what the retreats covered:

Seeker of Wisdom · August 31, 2013

Whoop!

My copy of Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's The Vajra Essence just arrived.

So far I've only read the preface, and that was a meaty Dharma stew.

RongzomFan · August 31, 2013

"Gampopa had perfected the view and the meditations of calm abiding and

superior insight in the Madhyamaka context according to the Kadampa system

when he came to Milarepa. When Gampopa offered his realization to him,

Milarepa said, “As for the aspect of calm abiding in your practice, however good

all of this may be, it does not go beyond being a cause for rebirth in the higher

realms of samsara. As for the aspect practice of superior insight, all of this entails

the danger of divergence into the four deviations from emptiness. It may well

serve as a remedy for some portions of reification, such as clinging to real exis-

tence. However, since it is not able to cut through the entirety of clinging to

extremes, there is the danger that the whole complex of this excellent view and

meditation itself could turn into cognitive obscurations. Hence, if one is fettered,

there is no difference between being fettered by an iron chain and being fettered

by a golden chain.” Later, Gampopa said about this, “If I had not met the great

master Milarepa, I would have risked rebirth as a long-lived god.”"

http://books.google.com/books?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC&pg=PA58&dq=Center+of+the+Sunlit+Sky+Gampopa+had+perfected+the+view+and+the+meditations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TYEIUebJKMqt0AGRsIHABA&ved=0CDMQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Center%20of%20the%20Sunlit%20Sky%20Gampopa%20had%20perfected%20the%20view%20and%20the%20meditations&f=true

RongzomFan · August 31, 2013

Criticism of samatha, from the Dzogchen perspective

http://books.google.com/books?id=HWGkCQ7FYA4C&pg=PA74&dq=approaching+the+great+perfection+samatha&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6SMiUrTqApC2sQTPjYHADA&ved=0CDIQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=approaching%20the%20great%20perfection%20samatha&f=false

Seeker of Wisdom · August 31, 2013

Gampopa had perfected the view and the meditations of calm abiding and superior insight in the Madhyamaka context

Which is exactly why he was ready for higher methods. Do you refuse to get in an elevator or use the stairs because you want to be in the penthouse?

RongzomFan · August 31, 2013

"there is no difference between being fettered by an iron chain and being fettered

by a golden chain.” "

Seeker of Wisdom · August 31, 2013

I agree.

RongzomFan · August 31, 2013

I agree.

Then you agree samatha is a fetter, as Milarepa is saying.

Seeker of Wisdom · August 31, 2013

As for the aspect of calm abiding in your practice, however good all of this may be, it does not go beyond being a cause for rebirth in the higher realms of samsara."

Shamatha alone is not liberation. Nobody claimed it was. But it's not a fetter because of that. Where does Milarepa say 'having good samadhi obscures buddhahood'? Are you saying Buddhas can have ADHD?

It has a place, which is pacifying the 5 hindrances so that more advanced practice - vipashyana, vajrayana, dzogchen - can be fully effective. This is reiterated by Dudjom Lingpa, Dudjom Rinpoche, Padmasambhava, etc. If you want references, see previous posts in this thread.

If you want to break fetters, then excitation, laxity, malice, afflictive doubt and craving are 5 big ones made dormant by the 5 jhana factors, from shamatha. Then you uproot them with vipashyana. Then, if you haven't done it already, you do ngondro. Then you do tekchod. Then you do togel.

That's the classic Dzogchen sequence, for people who don't have the exceptional faculties to skip stages. These people are very rare.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Seeker of Tao

RongzomFan · August 31, 2013