Cheshire Cat Posted August 12, 2013 Reading it.. it's fascinating! 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 12, 2013 It is a fantastic read! Much wisdom in it. Its not just for war, though.... I love one of the first things that is said. The art of war is the path of deception... That is such a deep subject to go into. I feel like the principles within it, the few I am aware of atm, are near universal. Peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) The art of war is the path of deception... That is such a deep subject to go into. Yeah, but wouldn't life be great if we never had the need for deception? Edited August 12, 2013 by Marblehead 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted August 12, 2013 the art of war, for all I care, is reserved only for the wicked of heart. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) "The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable. " To take up a position of empire, statehood, nationality, or dominion is to become assailable. The art of war is in and of itself null and void. War has no value for the humane, the humble and correct, the meek and the sacred; war only serves to promote false premise, for the truth is self evident and needs not fight for supremacy. Edited August 12, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 12, 2013 the art of war, for all I care, is reserved only for the wicked of heart. Not really, my friend. I suggest that you read it again at a time when your mind is fully open. There are so many concepts within that can be efficiently applied to our "real" life. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted August 12, 2013 Not really, my friend. I suggest that you read it again at a time when your mind is fully open. There are so many concepts within that can be efficiently applied to our "real" life. Re-read that as literal, not as referential; war (regardless of art) is caused only by wicked pursuits. weather war is the cure for wicked karma or initiated by a wicked pursuit, it is irrelevant. War cannot come about without wicked intent in the before or the during... and often harbors a lot of wickedness in the aftermath. THE BOOK, yeah, read that shit! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 12, 2013 THE BOOK, yeah, read that shit! That's it! You've got it!!! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cheshire Cat Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) War has no value for the humane, the humble and correct, the meek and the sacred; war only serves to promote false premise, for the truth is self evident and needs not fight for supremacy. This may be true, but almost EVERY technology that we currently use in daily life was born as a war-device, internet is included in the huge list. So war produces technology and advancements .... Everything is based on money and since war is the most remunerative business, we don't live as the Amish Edited August 12, 2013 by DAO rain TAO Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted August 12, 2013 Yeah its a fascinating read.. and since the fantasy ' kum ba yah land' isnt here ,, it has valid applications. On TB's , most are going to eschew it as being "bad" though. (which I find ironic) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 12, 2013 MB- I think of deception as having a different understanding of yin/yang. Of perceptions and reality. Plenty of things in life are easier to do if you know how to step on fewer toes. how to walk in the midst of the crowd without bumping into anyone. NAJA- saying that war is always evil seems like a denial of yin/yang. There is always good within bad. Bad within good. War is a part of the cycles in the level of change. war is a large destruction manifestation. Much good can come from that. Thing is, like many things, people tend to focus so much on their own feelings of pain and their own troubles, they cannot see the larger ramifications. How the destruction works within the whole of existence. Its a common phenomenon. Something bad happens, suddenly, god is dead or nonexistent or doesnt care, life is horrible, etc. Denying the destruction aspect of life, can make it much harder to see the creation. Harder to penetrate and see the inner weavings of manifestations. Some thoughts. Peace. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) I'm surprised this was sent to The Pit. Sun Tzu is way up there in terms of taoist discussion. A little conflict shouldn't be cause for being pit worthy. Especially when the subject can be so fruitful for conversation. my 2 bits Edited August 12, 2013 by thelerner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 12, 2013 Plenty of things in life are easier to do if you know how to step on fewer toes. how to walk in the midst of the crowd without bumping into anyone. Yeah, I have said before and will say again, most things in life are easy if you know how to do them. (But you gotta' do your practice and you gotta' make your mistakes until you finally learn the right way to do it.) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 I'm surprised this was sent to The Pit. Sun Tzu is way up there in terms of taoist discussion. A little conflict shouldn't be cause for being pit worthy. Especially when the subject can be so fruitful for conversation. my 2 bits Agree. Mods? Why is this in the pit? Thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 Plenty of things in life are easier to do if you know how to step on fewer toes. how to walk in the midst of the crowd without bumping into anyone. Yes - and strategies found in the AoW can be used anywhere. It's been a while since I read it, but as I recall most of what was in there was mostly applications of natural observations... flow, timing, etc. For example, here is one of my tricks. Driving in the city (rare occasion for me) I needed to change lanes, so I could turn in a few blocks. Nobody would let me in. So... I timed it so that at the next red light...I was at the front of my lane. I made all the motions like I was going to jump off the line and try and outrun the driver in the other lane to get in front of him. The light turned green, we both hit the gas, the folks behind us held back to watch the race, and after half a block i hit my brakes and slid in behind him. Easy peasy. I used the flow of the situation, and the other driver's own energy, against him. Aikido anyone? (-: The Art of War is like that, imo. Reading flow, strategy, results. IMO - this thread should be in the Taoist Discussion Forum warm regards 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) Oh yay! It's out of the Pit! If you want to move it the rest of the way up where it belongs... that would be okay too. Thanks! Edited August 12, 2013 by rene Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 12, 2013 Rene- Great points! I had forgotten how much Sun Tzu talked about flow and timing, harmonious interaction with the environment/ manifestations. To win before acting. In my own experience, timing has made a huge difference. Some things are far easier when you move at the time that is best for that thing. The subtleties of nature. Many aspects are def. Aikido. Using their own force against them. Using the least effort to effect the largest change. Understanding the environment and then interacting with it. How to work with/ use the people. Its all very interesting and taoist'y. Gosh, I need to read it again. haha. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted August 12, 2013 Ha Ha Ha , I use that maneuver too! How good are you at getting through toll booths do you read auto auras? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 Gosh, I need to read it again. haha. Me too. Just searched local library online - found it! Anyone know which translation would be better? Thomas Cleary or James Clavell? <-those are my only choices. Thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 Ha Ha Ha , I use that maneuver too! How good are you at getting through toll booths do you read auto auras? Never been through a toll booth... but I understand your question and my guesses run about 90% to the good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 12, 2013 To get thru toll booths all you gots to do is time your self so that when the person in front of you pays and goes thru, as they are passing and the bar is falling, you slide in right behind them.. Much skill is needed. Obviously, Sun Tzu was a fan of such methods. Hahaha. Peace. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 LOL. I'd rather pay my own way - avoids bigger trouble down the road. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 12, 2013 Thomas Cleary or James Clavell? <-those are my only choices. Thanks! I don't know Clavell. Cleary seems to interpret while translating. And sometimes his Christian views get into the interpretation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Uroboros Posted August 12, 2013 Rene- Aww!! You dont want to use ancient chinese secret war strategy to save 1 dollar?! Then what use is it?! hahaha. My current Sun Tzu translation is by Ralph Sawyer. Its a compendium of seven military classics of China. Its a pretty good translation, based on a few others I read. is it the most accurate? no idea! The other books are- Tai Kungs Secret Teachings The Methods of Ssu- Ma Wu-Tzu Wei Liao-Tzu Three Strategies of Huang Shih-kung Questions and Replies between Tang Tai-tsung and Li Wei-kung. Its nice because he gives historical background for each one so you have an idea as to why they were written and by whom. Tai Kungs Secret Teachings is quite interesting, I feel. Peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 12, 2013 Rene- Aww!! You dont want to use ancient chinese secret war strategy to save 1 dollar?! Then what use is it?! hahaha. I guess dealing with things, and seeing the origins of events, while they are still small - wasn't in any of your translations. (-: Thanks for the list, though! warm regards 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
