Chapter 2 Concepts

[Marblehead]

Concepts discussed in Chapter 2 are:

 

　

Contraries spring from our subjective individuality

Chapter 2:2, 2:10

 

Identity of subjective and objective

Chapter 2:3, 2:4

 

The centre where all distinctions are merged in One

Chapter 2:4, 2:5

 

How to reach this point

Chapter 2:6

 

Speech an obstacle

Chapter 2:7, 2:8, 2:9

 

The negative state

Chapter 2:11

 

Light out of darkness

Chapter 2:12

 

The transformation of things

Chapter 2:13

 

Note: It seems to me that in Chapter 2:1 Chuang Tzu is speaking of the sounds of Tao for comparison with the sounds (speech) of man discussed in this chapter.

 

　

 

http://oaks.nvg.org/zhuangzi1-.html

(Link to James Legge's translation of Chuang Tzu, Chapter 1)

Edited August 13, 2013 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

Gee Mh , I might as well say this outright,

I have no idea at all how to approach examination of the chapters from the list of concepts listed as such.

 

IF WATER is not heaped up deep enough, it will not have the strength to support a big boat. Upset a cup of water in a cavity, and a straw will float on it as if it were a boat. Place a cup in it, and it will stick fast; – the water is shallow and the boat is large. (So it is with) the accumulation of wind; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support great wings. Therefore (the Peng ascended to) the height of 90,000 li, and there was such a mass of wind beneath it; thenceforth the accumulation of wind was sufficient.

 

For instance

This all looks to me like he is relating one basic idea about the relative relationship of things. But expanding that already to the opposition of subjective to objective seems premature. ( even though it may play into that concept later)

Edited August 12, 2013 by Stosh

[Stosh]

This whole chunk is summarized by the last two sentences so it doesnt need explanation further

 

A cicada and a little dove laughed at it, saying, 'We make an effort and fly towards an elm or sapan-wood tree; and sometimes before we reach it, we can do no more but drop to the ground. Of what use is it for this (creature) to rise 90,000 li, and make for the South?'

He who goes to the grassy suburbs, returning to the third meal (of the day), will have his belly as full as when he set out; he who goes to a distance of 100 li will have to pound his grain where he stops for the night; he who goes a thousand li, will have to carry with him provisions for three months. What should these two small creatures know about the matter? The knowledge of that which is small does not reach to that which is great; (the experience of) a few years does not reach to that of many. How do we know that it is so? The mushroom of a morning does not know (what takes place between) the beginning and end of a month; the short-lived cicada does not know (what takes place between) the spring and autumn. These are instances of a short term of life. In the south of Ku [2], there is the (tree) called Ming-ling, whose spring is 500 years, and its autumn the same; in high antiquity there was that called Ta Khun, whose spring was 8000 years, and its autumn the same. And Master Peng is the one man renowned to the present day for his length of life: if all men were (to wish) to match him, would they not be miserable?

◑ It is to be expected that short-lived life-forms live on another scale than long-loved ones, and hold views and notions that fit that scheme of things too.

 

Is it time for chapter three so soon?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

For instance

This all looks to me like he is relating one basic idea about the relative relationship of things. But expanding that already to the opposition of subjective to objective seems premature. ( even though it may play into that concept later)

Okay. You are understanding. That's good.

 

Chuang Tzu often builds on what he has previously said, offering another way of looking at the concept.

[Marblehead]

Is it time for chapter three so soon?

Are you reading Chapter two? Your two posts reference Chapter 1.

 

NO, we're not ready for Chapter 3. Gotta do Chapter 2 first.

[Stosh]

Oh ! I thought I screwed up somewhere ( and did just not when I thought so)

Ill get it soon, Im just a bit dim at times

Edited August 12, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Im just a bit dim at times

I know that feeling well.

[rene]

Are you reading Chapter two? Your two posts reference Chapter 1.

 

NO, we're not ready for Chapter 3. Gotta do Chapter 2 first.

 

You know, it would really help if your numbering system on the first post of each chapter even closely resembled the numbering system in the link.

 

Where are you coming up with:

 

Contraries spring from our subjective individuality

Chapter 2:2, 2:10

 

Identity of subjective and objective

Chapter 2:3, 2:4

 

The centre where all distinctions are merged in One

Chapter 2:4, 2:5

 

How to reach this point

Chapter 2:6

 

etc...

 

Are you on this:

 

2: The mushroom of the morning: Return to a third meal

 

 

Or this:

2 - Adjustment of Controversies

 

 

because stosh's post quotes are from this:

 

2: The mushroom of the morning: Return to a third meal

Edited August 12, 2013 by rene

[Marblehead]

Okay. Legge's title for Chapter 2 is "Adjustment of Controversies".

 

Legge also titles each of the stories. For example: Chapter 2, Section 1 is titled "Heavenly music".

 

His titling of the sections has nothing to do with the concepts that are being presented in the sections.

 

In my Opening post to this chapter we see:

 

Contraries spring from our subjective individuality

Chapter 2:2, 2:10 (Chapter 2: Section 2 and Chapter 2 Section 10)

 

First is the concept

Second is the Chapter:Section where this concept is spoken to.

 

The concepts I am indicating are not from Legge - they are from Giles.

 

If I can possibly make it more confusing, please let me know.

[rene]

"Okay. Legge's title for Chapter 2 is "Adjustment of Controversies"."

 

 

 

So that's where we're supposed to be at right now in this Chapter 2 Concepts thread??

 

 

We sure went through all of

1 - Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease

 

really freakin fast...

 

 

:wacko:

 

 

[rene]

Stosh - I'm lost. Gonna wait till things are sorted.

[Stosh]

Okay. Legge's title for Chapter 2 is "Adjustment of Controversies". Legge also titles each of the stories. For example: Chapter 2, Section 1 is titled "Heavenly music". His titling of the sections has nothing to do with the concepts that are being presented in the sections. In my Opening post to this chapter we see: Contraries spring from our subjective individualityChapter 2:2, 2:10 (Chapter 2: Section 2 and Chapter 2 Section 10) First is the conceptSecond is the Chapter:Section where this concept is spoken to. The concepts I am indicating are not from Legge - they are from Giles. If I can possibly make it more confusing, please let me know.

You could maybe organize it along the lines of TBs new format

[Stosh]

Stosh - I'm lost. Gonna wait till things are sorted.

yeah , but I get it now. Giles concept naming goes retroactively back, whereas we are trying to go forward one step at a time, and helpfully intended direction toward the support in the chapter for the concept is for quick reference included.

I think

[Marblehead]

"Okay. Legge's title for Chapter 2 is "Adjustment of Controversies"."

 

 

 

So that's where we're supposed to be at right now in this Chapter 2 Concepts thread??

 

 

We sure went through all of

1 - Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease

 

really freakin fast...

 

 

:wacko:

Yep. But the thread is still open.

 

Yes, in this thread we should be talking about the concepts presented in Chapter 2.

 

Am I going too fast? I don't know. Y'all have to tell me.

 

Should we attain more enjoyment in our untroubled ease?

[Marblehead]

You could maybe organize it along the lines of TBs new format

Tell me more please.

[Marblehead]

I think

So do I. Sometimes. But oftentimes faultily.

 

I'm doing my best. Y'all have to tell me what more or what differently I need to do.

[rene]

Yep. But the thread is still open.

 

Yes, in this thread we should be talking about the concepts presented in Chapter 2.

 

Am I going too fast? I don't know. Y'all have to tell me.

 

Should we attain more enjoyment in our untroubled ease?

 

Just to confirm, and sorry I'm so slow on this, what you have just said is that the other thread, the Chapter 1 Concepts thread, was meant to cover all of this:

 

 

 

1 - Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease

 

1: Is azure the proper colour of the sky?

 

IN THE Northern Ocean there is a fish, the name of which is Kun [1], – I do not know how many li [1 li = ca. 500 m] in size. It changes into a bird with the name of Peng, the back of which is (also) – I do not know how many li in extent. When this bird rouses itself and flies, its wings are like clouds all round the sky. When the sea is moved (so as to bear it along), it prepares to remove to the Southern Ocean [darkness]. The Southern Ocean is the Lake of Heaven.

There is the (book called) The Universal Harmony [2], – a record of marvels. We have in it these words: 'When the Peng journeys to the Southern Ocean it flaps (its wings) on the water for 3000 li. Then it ascends on a whirlwind 90,000 li, and it rests only at the end of six months.' (But similar to this is the movement of the breezes which we call) the horses of the fields, of the dust (which quivers in the sunbeams), and of living things as they are blown against one another by the air [3]. Is its azure the proper colour of the sky? Or is it occasioned by its distance and illimitable extent? If one were looking down (from above), the very same appearance would just meet his view.

2: The mushroom of the morning: Return to a third meal

IF WATER is not heaped up deep enough, it will not have the strength to support a big boat. Upset a cup of water in a cavity, and a straw will float on it as if it were a boat. Place a cup in it, and it will stick fast; – the water is shallow and the boat is large. (So it is with) the accumulation of wind; if it be not great, it will not have strength to support great wings. Therefore (the Peng ascended to) the height of 90,000 li, and there was such a mass of wind beneath it; thenceforth the accumulation of wind was sufficient. As it seemed to bear the blue sky on its back, and there was nothing to obstruct or arrest its course, it could pursue its way to the South.

A cicada and a little dove laughed at it, saying, 'We make an effort and fly towards an elm or sapan-wood tree; and sometimes before we reach it, we can do no more but drop to the ground. Of what use is it for this (creature) to rise 90,000 li, and make for the South?'

He who goes to the grassy suburbs, returning to the third meal (of the day), will have his belly as full as when he set out; he who goes to a distance of 100 li will have to pound his grain where he stops for the night; he who goes a thousand li, will have to carry with him provisions for three months. What should these two small creatures know about the matter? The knowledge of that which is small does not reach to that which is great; (the experience of) a few years does not reach to that of many. How do we know that it is so? The mushroom of a morning does not know (what takes place between) the beginning and end of a month; the short-lived cicada does not know (what takes place between) the spring and autumn. These are instances of a short term of life. In the south of Ku [2], there is the (tree) called Ming-ling, whose spring is 500 years, and its autumn the same; in high antiquity there was that called Ta Khun, whose spring was 8000 years, and its autumn the same. And Master Peng is the one man renowned to the present day for his length of life: if all men were (to wish) to match him, would they not be miserable?

◑ It is to be expected that short-lived life-forms live on another scale than long-loved ones, and hold views and notions that fit that scheme of things too.

3: Judgement energies

IN THE questions put by Tang [1] to Ki we have similar statements: 'In the bare and barren north there is the dark and vat ocean, – the Pool of Heaven. In it there is a fish, several thousand li in breadth, while no one knows its length. Its name is the Kun. There is (also) a bird named the Peng; its back is like the Tai mountain, while its wings are like clouds all round the sky. On a whirlwind it mounts upwards as on the whorls of a goat's horn for 90,000 li, till, far removed from the cloudy vapours, it bears on its back the blue sky, and then it shapes its course for the South, and proceeds to the ocean there.' A quail by the side of a marsh laughed at it, and said, 'Where is it going to? I spring up with a bound, and come down again when I have reached but a few fathoms, and then fly about among the brushwood and bushes; and this is the perfection of flying. Where is that creature going to?'

This shows the difference between the small and the great.

Thus it is that men, whose wisdom is sufficient for the duties of some one office, or whose conduct will secure harmony in some one district, or whose virtue is befitting a ruler so that they could efficiently govern some one state, are sure to look on themselves in this manner (like the quail), and yet Master Jung of Sung would have smiled and laughed at them. (This Master Jung), though the whole world should have praised him, would not for that have stimulated himself to greater endeavour, and though the whole world should have condemned him, would not have exercised any more repression of his course; so fixed was he in the difference between the internal (judgement of himself) and the external (judgement of others), so distinctly had he marked out the bounding limit of glory and disgrace. Here, however, he stopped. His place in the world indeed had become indifferent to him, but still he had not planted himself firmly (in the right position).

There was Master Lieh (Lieh Tzu), who rode on the wind and pursued his way with an admirable indifference (to all external things), returning, however, after fifteen days, (to his place). In regard to the things that (are supposed to) contribute to happiness, he was free from all endeavours to obtain them; but though he had not to walk, there was still something for which he had to wait. But suppose one who mounts on (the ether of) heaven and earth in its normal operation, and drives along the six elemental energies of the changing (seasons), thus enjoying himself in the illimitable, – what has he to wait for'? Therefore it is said, 'The Perfect man has no (thought of) self; the Spirit-like man, none of merit; the Sagely-minded man, none of fame.'

◑ It is hardly best to become indifferent before one has struck root well.

◑ Spiritual attainments cause deep enjoyments that common people do not know about.

4: Names are like guests of reality -

Yao, proposing to resign the throne to Hsü Yu, said,

'When the sun and moon have come forth, if the torches have not been put out, would it not be difficult for them to give light? When the seasonal rains are coming down, if we still keep watering the ground, will not our toil be labour lost for all the good it will do? Do you, Master, stand forth (as sovereign), and the kingdom will (at once) be well governed. If I still (continue to) preside over it, I must look on myself as vainly occupying the place; – I beg to resign the throne to you.'

Hsü Yu said,

'You, Sir, govern the kingdom, and the kingdom is well governed. If I in these circumstances take your place, shall I not be doing so for the sake of the name? But the name is but the guest of the reality; – shall I be playing the part of the guest? The tailor-bird makes its nest in the deep forest, but only uses a single branch; the mole drinks from the Ho, but only takes what fills its belly. Return and rest in being ruler, – I will have nothing to do with the throne. Though the cook were not attending to his kitchen, the representative of the dead and the officer of prayer would not leave their cups and stands to take his place.'

5: Far away on a hill there lived someone who preserved a plentiful harvest

Kien Wu asked Lien Shu, saying,

'I heard Khieh-yu talking words which were great, but had nothing corresponding to them (in reality); - once gone, they could not be brought back. I was frightened by them; – they were like the Milky Way which cannot be traced to its beginning or end. They had no connexion with one another, and were not akin to the experiences of men.'

'What were his words?' asked Lien Shu, and the other replied,

'(He said) that 'Far away on the hill of Ku She there dwelt a Spirit-like man whose flesh and skin were (smooth) as ice and (white) as snow; that his manner was elegant and delicate as that of a virgin; that he did not eat any of the five grains, but inhaled the wind and drank the dew; that he mounted on the clouds, drove along the flying dragons, rambling and enjoying himself beyond the four seas; that by the concentration of his spirit-like powers he could save men from disease and pestilence, and secure every year a plentiful harvest.'

These words appeared to me wild and incoherent and I did not believe them.

'So it is,' said Lien Shu. 'The blind have no perception of the beauty of elegant figures, nor the deaf of the sound of bells and drums. But is it only the bodily senses of which deafness and blindness can be predicated? There is also a similar defect in the intelligence; and of this your words supply an illustration in yourself. That man, with those attributes, though all things were one mass of confusion, and he heard in that condition the whole world crying out to him to be rectified, would not have to address himself laboriously to the task, as if it were his business to rectify the world. Nothing could hurt that man; the greatest floods, reaching to the sky, could not drown him, nor would he feel the fervour of the greatest heats melting metals and stones till they flowed, and scorching all the ground and hills. From the dust and chaff of himself, he could still mould and fashion Yaos and Shuns; how should he be willing to occupy himself with things?'

◑ To "inhale the wind" and dispense with food for it, is a yogic breathing method also.

◑ "The concentration of spirit-like powers" - appears to parallell sanyama in yoga. Sanyama is explained in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, Book 3; v. 4 ff.

6: Oblivious eyes indicate lack of interest in ruling the people

A man of Sung, who dealt in the ceremonial caps (of Yin), went with them to Yüeh, the people of which cut off their hair and tattooed their bodies, so that they had no use for them. Yao ruled the people of the kingdom, and maintained a perfect government within the four seas. Having gone to see the four (Perfect) Ones on the distant hill of Ku She, when (he returned to his capital) on the south of the Fen water, his throne appeared no more to his deep-sunk oblivious eyes.

7: Considering the good uses of many things

Master Hui told Master Chuang, saying,

'The king of Wei sent me some seeds of a large calabash, which I sowed. The fruit, when fully grown, could contain five piculs (of anything). I used it to contain water, but it was so heavy that I could not lift it by myself. I cut it in two to make the parts into drinking vessels; but the dried shells were too wide and unstable and would not hold (the liquor); nothing but large useless things! Because of their uselessness I knocked them to pieces.'

Master Chuang replied,

'You were indeed stupid in the use of what was large. There was a man of Sung who was skilful at making a salve which kept the hands from getting chapped; and (his family) for generations had made the bleaching of cocoon-silk their business. A stranger heard of it, and proposed to buy the art of the preparation for a hundred ounces of silver. The kindred all came together, and considered the proposal. "We have," said they, "been bleaching cocoon-silk for generations, and have only gained a little money. Now in one morning we can sell to this man our art for a hundred ounces; – let him have it." The stranger accordingly got it and went away with it to give counsel to the king of Wu, who was then engaged in hostilities with Yüeh. The king gave him the command of his fleet, and in the winter he had an engagement with that of Yüeh, on which he inflicted a great defeat, and was invested with a portion of territory taken from Yüeh. The keeping the hands from getting chapped was the same in both cases; but in the one case it led to the investiture (of the possessor of the salve), and in the other it had only enabled its owners to continue their bleaching. The difference of result was owing to the different use made of the art. Now you, Sir, had calabashes large enough to hold five piculs; – why did you not think of making large bottle-gourds of them, by means of which you could have floated over rivers and lakes, instead of giving yourself the sorrow of finding that they were useless for holding anything. Your mind, my master, would seem to have been closed against all intelligence!'

◑ Inventive minds may come up with sound uses for things out of the ordinary too.

7b: The useless tree

Master Hui said to Master Chuang, 'I have a large tree, which men call the Ailantus. Its trunk swells out to a large size, but is not fit for a carpenter to apply his line to it; its smaller branches are knotted and crooked, so that the disk and square cannot be used on them. Though planted on the wayside, a builder would not turn his head to look at it. Now your words, Sir, are great, but of no use; – all unite in putting them away from them.'

Master Chuang replied,

'Have you never seen a wildcat or a weasel? There it lies, crouching and low, till the wanderer approaches; east and west it leaps about, avoiding neither what is high nor what is low, till it is caught in a trap, or dies in a net. Again there is the Yak, so large that it is like a cloud hanging in the sky. It is large indeed, but it cannot catch mice. You, Sir, have a large tree and are troubled because it is of no use; – why do you not plant it in a tract where there is nothing else, or in a wide and barren wild? There you might saunter idly by its side, or in the enjoyment of untroubled ease sleep beneath it. Neither bill nor axe would shorten its existence; there would be nothing to injure it. What is there in its uselessness to cause you distress?'

◑ To sleep in untroubled ease beneath a large, sheltering tree can be a memory of a lifetime also.

 

 

Is that correct?

 

Thanks!

Edited August 13, 2013 by rene

[Stosh]

Tell me more please.

I was kidding there mh I find the new tbs frmat to be rather awkward on this phone. Either way I prefer to let yall run your own dojo ill catch up.No worries. Edited August 13, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Just to confirm, and sorry I'm so slow on this, what you have just said is that the other thread, the Chapter 1 Concepts thread, was meant to cover all of this:

 

 

Is that correct?

 

Thanks!

Yes.

 

The reason I wanted to the entire chapter all in one thread is that examples of the concepts are included in various sections of the chapter.

 

Maybe it would be better to do each section of each chapter in a separate thread?

 

I know the chapters are long reads.

 

However I can make it easier, better and of more value to others is the way I want to do the study.

 

Basically I need more input from Y'all. Help!!!

[Marblehead]

I was kidding there mh I find the new tbs frmat to be rather awkward on this phone. Either way I prefer to let yall run your own dojo ill catch up.No worries.

Hehehe. NO. I need your input as well.

 

Based on what you and Rene have said, we haven't finished Chapter 1 yet. In fact, I feel that y'all have a lot more to say, many more questions to ask.

 

Sometimes my battery runs low of energy and I need a push to get started.

[Stosh]

I think the idea of covering sections individually is a very good idea , to accommodate your wish to keep the chapters together in the thread , possiibly you could shut the door on a section when its played out and just post a

 

 

THIS SECTION 8 IS FINISHED ,, STARTING SECTION 9

 

 

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

And then just go ahead with 9

Maybe just pose the first thing that we are supposed to get from it ,as a question, so we get rolling and we will push.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

So let me ask:

 

Should I break the study down into Chapter and Section?

 

That would mean 8 Sections for Chapter 1, 8 Threads for Chapter 1.

 

Perhaps this would be better; smaller chunks of information to discuss in each thread?

 

Please don't be afraid to tell me what you think. (Rene has no problem doing this. Hehehe.) I will be helpful, I promise.

 

It's never too late to make changes. I can always modify the format (the way we do the study).

[Marblehead]

I think the idea of covering sections individually is a very good idea , to accommodate your wish to keep the chapters together in the thread , possiibly you could shut the door on a section when its played out and just post a

 

 

THIS SECTION 8 IS FINISHED ,, STARTING SECTION 9

 

 

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

And then just go ahead with 9

Maybe just pose the first thing that we are supposed to get from it ,as a question, so we get rolling.

Yeah, I got the feeling that there was a desire to do each section individually.

 

I wouldn't want to close the threads though. After-thoughts can sometimes contain much wisdom and I would want others to be able to share that wisdom.

[Stosh]

Yeah, I got the feeling that there was a desire to do each section individually.

 

I wouldn't want to close the threads though. After-thoughts can sometimes contain much wisdom and I would want others to be able to share that wisdom.

Well Im just thinking that it would be a flag , when we are starting the next thingie, wasnt the plan to allow discussion of parts already covered -retroactively ? So earlier chapter one issues could still be addressed by not closing the thread , just sticking in the flag. Its like zero effort and just keeps us on the same page-section.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Well Im just thinking that it would be a flag , when we are starting the next thingie, wasnt the plan to allow discussion of parts already covered -retroactively ? So earlier chapter one issues could still be addressed by not closing the thread , just sticking in the flag. Its like zero effort and just keeps us on the same page-section.

Okay. I don't know how to do that but once we get this figured out as to how I should do the study I will look into it and learn.