Everything is illusion.

[effilang]

You really got ahead of yourself there, Aaron.

 

I am truly sorry that you do not see the Taoism in my original post.

 

Peace.

Edited August 14, 2013 by effilang

[zerostao]

"Taoism teaches us that we don't have to believe something just because we've been told it is so. Also there are (literally) thousands of different sects of Taoism, and not all are strictly Taoist in practice, some are heavily influenced by Ch'an, others by Confucianism, others by traditional Chinese practices, and others by all of these combined. I wouldn't tell them they aren't Taoists if they came here and said something that wasn't taught in the Tao Te Ching or Chuang Tzu, but I would mention that it isn't what Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu taught."

 

aaron, well said. i havnt studied any ch'an and if what effi has presented on this thread is ch'an, then i do have some resonance with it. another thread i had a couple of years ago , simple jack and ct said in was ch'an like too. where does the influence come from then? i am thinking from my experience.

 

"A lot of people come here and read these threads to learn more about a specific philosophy,"

yes aaron they do and for those folks i hope they find their way to the ttc and chaung tzu sections. alot of other folks come here without seeking a philosophy, they come seeking taoism. not all taoists are scholarly philosophers.

i used to read ttc and chuang tzu and enjoyed and pondered, i have since put the philosophy away and am experiencing taoisim instead of reading it in a book. from my pov taoism philosophy is excellent to ponder upon and debate the different translators and all and we even have sections here specifically for that exact thing. if this had have been posted in the ttc section or the chaung tzu section, i could understand some of you philosophic purists replying like you have.

but imo you have taken this off topic

 

the title itself >>everything is illusion, altho i agree with it in the context that effi presented it, it is a little bit of a loaded statement. lets get past that part

[rene]

.

Edited August 15, 2013 by rene

[Uroboros]

Malikshreds- I am there, too. The Buddha is talking about seeing and the things that are seen. The emphasis on seeing and what it is.

 

I thought the Buddha said emptiness in reference to forms seen thru the conscious mind....Maybe I am mistaken. I will find out soon!

[Uroboros]

Malikshreds- I have not finished it, either. We shall see where the Buddha takes us!

 

I was thinking about emptiness....physicists say that matter is mostly empty space.

 

Could they have meant that?

 

Since the point is that they, enlightened beings, experienced the truth. The root.

 

They would probably know that.

 

And they would know what the emptiness is.

 

So maybe its all the same thing, just different perspectives.....

 

Something to ponder.

 

Peace.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Edited August 14, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[Uroboros]

I do like chocolate......allot.

[Uroboros]

The thing is that we're making emptiness into a thing though. Remember when Ananda talked about how emptiness is round when it is in a glass. It's very difficult to understand. That's why you gotta investigate it with meditation and doing good deeds.

 

I agree. I am making emptiness a thing. A thing that is no-thing. We are using words and trying to be as...expansive as possible with those words is tricky.

 

So as to not completely destroy the concept.

 

I feel it can help to use words to point in the right direction. Whatever that is.

 

In the end, we must experience it, though.

 

Peace.

[Uroboros]

Maybe not asking the right questions may be it. The questions that we may ask, may be the wrong ones to ask.

 

The right questions do seem to help allot. hehe, the right question can lead to the right words to point to the right place. hah.

 

Then, if many of the questions we may ask are wrong, should we ask at all?

 

Maybe none of them are wrong because we are all on the path and eventually we will reach somewhere.

 

hehe, illusions upon illusions, a kingdom of mirages, at our service....are we now powerful?

 

Peace.

[Marblehead]

Yes, we need our chocolate. It is one of the essential food groups for a healthy body and mind.

 

And during the discussions in this thread I am hopeful that all who wish to learn about Taoist Philosophy will find that the statement used to title this thread (Everything is Illusion) is a false statement.

 

Only Illusion is illusion.

 

Only Delusion is delusion.

 

Only Manifest Reality is your 'real' world. And BTW, that is where you live whether you adimt it or not.

 

The Mystery is potential. (Some would argue with me on that one.)

 

Tao exists. But Tao is not a thing or even a thought so it cannot be defined.

 

So, when we talk about Tao what we are talking about is the Manifest aspect of Tao, not Tao itself. When we understand this we will be able to talk about Tao.

 

Throw away your illusions. Throw away your delusions. Throw away what others have said. Now you are ready to experience Tao. (If you are holding to any religious or philosophic dogma you are not yet ready to experience Tao.)

[effilang]

My OP represents very simple Taoist concepts:

 

1. Wu Wei during meditation.

2. Achieving stillness of heart-mind by understanding the influence of the the 5 senses on the mind.

3. Encouraging continuous investigation and not holding on to achievements.

4. Attaining a state of stillness where by the Tao can be experienced personally and not as a product of dogmas.

5. Understanding that we are not separate from the Tao, but that we are the Tao and have not awakened to that reality.

 

The 5 senses exist in Buddhism as well as in Taoism. You'd be surprised to find out they exist in most humans too...

The acquired ego-mind exists in Taoism as well as Zhi Shen. You'd be surprised to find out that too exists in most humans...

 

Achieving stillness of mind through Wu Wei is paramount to establishing a connection to the Wuji.

 

I pity those of you who are here squabbling over titles and names, for you are using the length of your pinky finger to measure the depth of the ocean and missing the moon for the finger.

 

Anyone who denies these are Taoist concepts, denies these are Taoist concepts.

While you are denying, I will meditate.

 

 

Throw away your illusions. Throw away your delusions. Throw away what others have said. Now you are ready to experience Tao. (If you are holding to any religious or philosophic dogma you are not yet ready to experience Tao.)

Edited August 14, 2013 by effilang

[zerostao]

connecting to wuji

[Apech]

 

My OP represents very simple Taoist concepts:

 

1. Wu Wei during meditation.

2. Achieving stillness of heart-mind by understanding the influence of the the 5 senses on the mind.

3. Encouraging continuous investigation and not holding on to achievements.

4. Attaining a state of stillness where by the Tao can be experienced personally and not as a product of dogmas.

5. Understanding that we are not separate from the Tao, but that we are the Tao and have not awakened to that reality.

 

The 5 senses exist in Buddhism as well as in Taoism. You'd be surprised to find out they exist in most humans too...

The acquired ego-mind exists in Taoism as well as Zhi Shen. You'd be surprised to find out that too exists in most humans...

 

Achieving stillness of mind through Wu Wei is paramount to establishing a connection to the Wuji.

 

I pity those of you who are here squabbling over titles and names, for you are using the length of your pinky finger to measure the depth of the ocean and missing the moon for the finger.

 

Anyone who denies these are Taoist concepts, denies these are Taoist concepts.

While you are denying, I will meditate.

 

 

There's an old thread somewhere where we discussed the fact that the 'ego-mind' is not a Taoist concept. I think TM was involved in that discussion.

[Marblehead]

My OP represents very simple Taoist concepts:

I am sure you know that I am not picking on you or anything you have presented in this thread.

 

But I am who I am and now and again I just like to return to the roots of Taoist Philosophy.

[Marblehead]

There's an old thread somewhere where we discussed the fact that the 'ego-mind' is not a Taoist concept. I think TM was involved in that discussion.

Hehehe. That's because ego is already a given in Taoism. No need to talk too much about it.

[zerostao]

are the roots of taoist philosophy taoism?

[Marblehead]

are the roots of taoist philosophy taoism?

Ha! I know a trick question when I see one.

 

Was there taoism before there was Taoism?

 

Well, yes, but it wasn't called Taoism.

[zerostao]

had your coffee already?! hehehe

[Apech]

Hehehe. That's because ego is already a given in Taoism. No need to talk too much about it.

 

Do LZ or Chuang Tzu ever mention the ego.

[effilang]

Just because something was discussed, Apech, does not make it a "fact."

Otherwise we would all transform into immortals after reading the TTC.

 

And just because an abbot of the Zhen Yi Pai southern school of spiritual Taoism also claims there is an acquired mind doesn't make it a fact either.

 

You know what makes it a fact? - Your own personal verification of the absolute truth.

 

Having said that, here is what the said Taoist abbot thinks:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what now? I pulled some texts. Does that mean you're going to believe in the acquired mind as a Taoist concept now? All of a sudden your views no longer matter, because someone else with greater authority claims otherwise? Is that how it works?

 

Does it even matter if it's a Taoist concept?

 

Will it help you come closer to realizing the Tao by establishing it's origin and attribution?

 

I don't care if I found a scripture stuffed up a pigs butt. I will take it out, clean it, read it and put its instructions to work and if I find them to be accurate in the results they have produced I will consider them true.

 

For one to say that there is no acquired ego-mind in Taoism or that it is not a Taoist concept, It simply means they have not realized it yet.

 

There are many concepts and truths which you will come across while studying Taoism, that are not described in Taoist doctrine, but can be found in the doctrines of other spiritual disciplines and schools. Does that then make them false and non-Taoist, even though it is through the practice and application of the very "authentic" Taoist guidelines that you have manifested their realization?

 

If I discover a new chemical element in our atmosphere, does that make it a false discovery simply because it was unknown till now? Can I still add it to the periodic table and call it an element of the periodic table or is it unworthy or do I have to make up a brand new table? Will it make any difference to the existence of the said element whether it is in the old table or the new table?

 

The energy body is the energy body. The function is the same across humans.

The physical body is the physical body. The function is the same across humans.

The spirit body is the spirit body. The function is the same across humans.

 

Stop drowning in discrimination.

 

The Tao is not set in stone. It is nature manifest. Constantly flowing, constantly transforming.

If you hold on to it, it will slip your grasp. If you try to give it a name it will never answer to you.

If you try to own it, it will never be yours. The more you look for it the harder it is to find.

 

Please for the love of all things good. Stop with dogmas and ideas and dedicate every ounce of your being to INVESTIGATION. This is the ROOT of Spiritual Taoism.

 

Only through investigation can we reach the absolute.

Until then, everything you know and believe, no matter how strongly is just a relative opinion.

 

Spiritual cultivation is nothing more but the investigation and discovery of the Tao.

Edited August 14, 2013 by effilang

[effilang]

Do LZ or Chuang Tzu ever mention the ego.

 

There are too many things to mention that are discovered about the 3 bodies and the Tao which are not mentioned either by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

Does that make them less of a reality?

 

Do you really think Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu who teach that the Tao cannot be named or described, actually managed to name it and describe it in all it's ways to you through their texts? So much so that you can read their texts and satiate yourself with the idea that there is nothing more to learn or discover?

 

And you say you practice Taoism?

 

Interesting.

 

The great masters before us have taught us the instructions and they have given us the map.

When we look at the map we can see the path drawn out and how it turns left and right.

 

But the map will never describe to you the beauty of the mountains, the sound of the waterfall, the sight of the sunset and all the manifestations of the Tao. You will not hear the birds song or taste the sweet fruits by reading the map alone.

 

These are things that you experience while you embody the instructions passed down to us by great practitioners such as Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu. But this you can only experience through your own investigation.

 

These details a many. A thousand! They are not all included in their texts.

 

I gather those two fine gentlemen were more interested in showing you how to get there than spending their team telling you about how cool it is while you're getting there.

Edited August 14, 2013 by effilang

[Apech]

Just because something was discussed, Apech, does not make it a "fact."

 

And just because an abbot of the Zhen Yi Pai southern school of spiritual Taoism also claims there is an acquired mind doesn't make it a fact either.

 

You know what makes it a fact? - Your own personal verification of the absolute truth.

 

≈...

 

So what now? I pulled some texts. Does that mean you're going to believe in the acquired mind as a Taoist concept now? All of a sudden your views no longer matter, because someone else with greater authority claims otherwise? Is that how it works?

 

Does it even matter if it's a Taoist concept?

 

Will it help you come closer to realizing the Tao by establishing it's origin and attribution?

 

I don't care if I found a scripture stuffed up a pigs butt. I will take it out, clean it, read it and put its instructions to work and if I find them to be accurate in the results they have produced I will consider them true.

 

For one to say that there is no acquired ego-mind in Taoism or that it is not a Taoist concept, It simply means they have not realized it yet.

 

There are many concepts and truths which you will come across while studying Taoism, that are not described in Taoist doctrine, but can be found in the doctrines of other spiritual disciplines and schools. Does that then make them false and non-Taoist, even though it is through the practice and application of the very "authentic" Taoist guidelines that you have manifested their realization?

 

If I discover a new chemical element in our atmosphere, does that make it a false discovery simply because it was unknown till now? Can I still add it to the periodic table and call it an element of the periodic table or is it unworthy or do I have to make up a brand new table? Will it make any difference to the existence of the said element whether it is in the old table or the new table?

 

The energy body is the energy body. The function is the same across humans.

The physical body is the physical body. The function is the same across humans.

The spirit body is the spirit body. The function is the same across humans.

 

Stop drowning in discrimination.

 

The Tao is not set in stone. It is nature manifest. Constantly flowing, constantly transforming.

If you hold on to it, it will slip your grasp. If you try to give it a name it will never answer to you.

If you try to own it, it will never be yours. The more you look for it the harder it is to find.

 

Please for the love of all things good. Stop with dogmas and ideas and dedicate every ounce of your being to INVESTIGATION.

 

Only through investigation can we reach the absolute.

Until then, everything you know and believe, no matter how strongly is just a relative opinion.

 

Spiritual cultivation is nothing more but the investigation and discovery of the Tao.

 

I have no idea what caused this reaction. And I have no idea why you think I am drowning in discrimination as you put it. I do investigate everything which is why I think about such things as whether ego is a Taoist concept or not. I am not a Taoist (although I have read a lot about it) and am interested in what practicing Taoists say about these things because I have an open mind. If I post something please do not make assumptions about my motivation for doing so.

[Apech]

There are too many things to mention that are discovered about the 3 bodies and the Tao which are not mentioned either by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

Does that make them less of a reality?

No I wasn't saying it did.

 

Do you really think Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu who teach that the Tao cannot be named or described, actually managed to name it and describe it in all it's ways to you through their texts? So much so that you can read their texts and satiate yourself with the idea that there is nothing more to learn or discover?

That doesn't follow ... its an invalid argument ... the Tao cannot be spoken ...

 

And you say you practice Taoism?

Nope.

 

Interesting.

 

The great masters before us have taught us the instructions and they have given us the map.

When we look at the map we can see the path drawn out and how it turns left and right.

 

But the map will never describe to you the beauty of the mountains, the sound of the waterfall, the sight of the sunset and all the manifestations of the Tao. You will not hear the birds song or taste the sweet fruits by reading the map alone.

 

These are things that you experience while you embody the instructions passed down to us by great practitioners such as Chuang Tzu and Lao Tzu. But this you can only experience through your own investigation.

 

These details a many. A thousand! They are not all included in their texts.

I think you are confused. I'm sorry to say this but none of this follows from anything I have said and asked.

 

I gather those two fine gentlemen were more interested in showing you how to get there than spending their team telling you about how cool it is while you're getting there.

What?

 

I have nothing against you or anything you are saying. Good luck and best wishes.

 

A.

[hydrogen]

I gather those two fine gentlemen were more interested in showing you how to get there than spending their team telling you about how cool it is while you're getting there.

 

I don't think anyone has ever "get" there. The Tao is "unborn". How can you get somewhere which does not exist yet?

 

"The means is the end."

 

If "everything is illusion", then illusion is all you have.

 

So long you enjoy the journey, it doesn't matter much. Wherever you are, God/Tao is with you.

Edited August 14, 2013 by hydrogen

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I do like chocolate......allot.

 

the 'extra' segment is an illusion. or is it?